Responding to Evangelical/Prostestant claims

[GregConstantine]

Hello,

I'm currently in a conversation on FB with a protestant preacher who preaches at local universities and public parks etc in our area.

He just asked me after I explained to him how the Word of God is a person, Jesus Christ, not ink on paper, and how the ink on paper needs to be interpretedl, and that the Church came before the Bible (a lot more was said, but this is just a summary)

he responded by saying "I know Jesus is the Word of God" nvm he said a couple of posts before that that Bible is the Word of God, then he asked me by what authority do I make my claims.

I'm thinking of responding by asking him "by what authority do you claim the books of the New Testament are Scripture?"

I'm curious what you guys would say

 

[Merrily]

Why would one bother?

Old story and to be taken with a pinch of salt.....
A street preaching pastor and liturgical tradition priest shared a railway carriage journey and got to talking theology in a friendly way.
They agreed to differ on certain points.
The train reached the terminus and as the pair parted the priest, with a twinkle in his eye, said...
" It's been good talking to you Pastor. You carry on serving God in your way and I'll carry on serving Him in His."

 

[GregConstantine]

"Why would one bother?"

Because the Father desires all to come the knowlege of the Truth and be saved. BTW, this is an Orthodox forum for Orthodox people to talk to each other. While all are welcome to participate, please don't be surprised by such questions. If you know anything about Orthodoxy and what we believe, we believe and proclaim that we are the very Church of Jesus Christ, and that others, whose relationship to God is known only by Him, are to be called to come into the Church by their own volution in order to obtain salvation for their souls.

So lets stay focus on the topic on hand, thanks!

 

[GregConstantine]

@ Merrily,
one more thought:

True, authentic faith in Jesus Christ means that we teach that doctrine which we have received and submit to those who have the authority to correct our public doctrine. A Protestant may be pardoned for his ignorance if he teaches only true doctrine to the extent that he knows the truth, but we Orthodox who have embraced the fullness of revealed truth have not the authority to say, that the Church is wrong and one's subjective personal experience is right. Faithfulness to Christ requires my membership in and submission to the hierarchical community that He established to safeguard His sacramental mysteries and the true teaching of His Gospel, which is not an institution created by men, but the very mystical Body of Jesus Christ to which we are united to in our baptism and chrismation and of the partaking of the Body and Blood in the Eucharist.

 

[Merrily]

Apologies.
I'll attempt to contextualise the homily.
Your pastor chum has said that he believes that Jesus is the Word of God.
It's likely however, from your succinct pen portrait of his ministry that he's a guy from a tradition that places great weight and authority upon the 'ink on paper' of that version of the Bible he prefers to use.
You and I both belong to traditions with slightly different foci.
My point, such as it was; and poorly made, being that it is ultimately futile to debate such nuances.
The sola scriptura chap will seldom waver from his comfort zone in much the same ways that we feel at home within our own.
God is with, in and amongst all traditions where Christ is honoured, yours and this guy's.
Neither are privileged; both have work to do.
Arguing nuances with believers from other traditions gets no one anywhere and may distract from mission.

 

[Merrily]

@ Merrily,
one more thought:

True, authentic faith in Jesus Christ means that we teach that doctrine which we have received and submit to those who have the authority to correct our public doctrine. A Protestant may be pardoned for his ignorance if he teaches only true doctrine to the extent that he knows the truth, but we Orthodox who have embraced the fullness of revealed truth have not the authority to say, that the Church is wrong and one's subjective personal experience is right. Faithfulness to Christ requires my membership in and submission to the hierarchical community that He established to safeguard His sacramental mysteries and the true teaching of His Gospel, which is not an institution created by men, but the very mystical Body of Jesus Christ to which we are united to in our baptism and chrismation and of the partaking of the Body and Blood in the Eucharist.

I agree entirely reserving the right, from my own tradition to substitute 'Confirmation' for ' Chrismation'.

 

[jckstraw72]

Facebook is not the place for such talks!

 

[Lukaris]

Perhaps take an extended breather in your conversation. Ask the pastor if he would appreciate examining the Orthodox concept of salvation in the overall Biblical sense. Here is an excellent explanation from the blessed late Pope Shenouda of the Coptic Church: http://www.saint-mary.net/books/Salvation%20in%20the%20Orthodox%20Concept.pdf


I know we are regrettably not in communion with the OO, but this explanation seems clear (I have personally only perused it, but it seems fully Orthodox to me). The PDF is over 180 pp printed although it includes iconic illustrations.

 

[Merrily]

May Light perpetual shine upon Pope Shenouda and with all respect to the Egyptian Copts but they came under huge protestant influence last century, some of which shows through in places.

 

[GregConstantine]

Please stay on topic, thank you

 

[chapdaddy]

I often wonder (when embroiled in such discussions myself) at what point are we casting pearls? If a person has no interest in hearing the Truth of the Church, why engage them further? I try to encourage people (as my priest exhorts me) to do the good they can. Even if a person believes that their actions are not salvific, we can encourage them to Christian praxis which imo is just as if not more important.

 

[Merrily]

Issue 123 – Protestant Attempts to Influence the Coptic Orthodox Church - The British Orthodox Church

 

[truefiction1]

Hello,

I'm currently in a conversation on FB with a protestant preacher who preaches at local universities and public parks etc in our area.

He just asked me after I explained to him how the Word of God is a person, Jesus Christ, not ink on paper, and how the ink on paper needs to be interpretedl, and that the Church came before the Bible (a lot more was said, but this is just a summary)

he responded by saying "I know Jesus is the Word of God" nvm he said a couple of posts before that that Bible is the Word of God, then he asked me by what authority do I make my claims.

I'm thinking of responding by asking him "by what authority do you claim the books of the New Testament are Scripture?"

I'm curious what you guys would say

He would probably just respond with a quote from scripture, likely from the pen of the Apostle Paul, which attests to the authority of scripture (see 2 Timothy 3:16). He would also claim that the scripture is the only authority left that is dependable, being that men and their "traditions" (as in the Orthodox or Catholic Church) are not (see Mark 7:6).

But I would avoid such debates. For we, the proud, are seldom ever convinced of anything, except our own righteousness and our own correctness in moral and dogmatic thought. We will therefore gain nothing from arguing, except resentment and perhaps even hatred. This is perhaps because we have failed to yet learn that Christ is not a culture of ideas and doctrinal beliefs which validate "us" if learned and held to. Christ is Love, Who words can never truly define. We encounter, and reveal, Him and His peace in forgiveness and silence, not in heated debate.

 

[Merrily]

Might we be approaching a consensus here?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Hello,

I'm currently in a conversation on FB with a protestant preacher who preaches at local universities and public parks etc in our area.

He just asked me after I explained to him how the Word of God is a person, Jesus Christ, not ink on paper, and how the ink on paper needs to be interpretedl, and that the Church came before the Bible (a lot more was said, but this is just a summary)

he responded by saying "I know Jesus is the Word of God" nvm he said a couple of posts before that that Bible is the Word of God, then he asked me by what authority do I make my claims.

I'm thinking of responding by asking him "by what authority do you claim the books of the New Testament are Scripture?"

I'm curious what you guys would say

since the NT was written from the year 50ish to 98ish, and not codified as a New Testament for all of that time, I would ask what the Christian's look to for their teaching, and what voices from that time can he use to support his claim

 

[Lukaris]

May Light perpetual shine upon Pope Shenouda and with all respect to the Egyptian Copts but they came under huge protestant influence last century, some of which shows through in places.

Pope Shenouda was directly responding to that very influence.

 

[MKJ]

I often wonder (when embroiled in such discussions myself) at what point are we casting pearls? If a person has no interest in hearing the Truth of the Church, why engage them further? I try to encourage people (as my priest exhorts me) to do the good they can. Even if a person believes that their actions are not salvific, we can encourage them to Christian praxis which imo is just as if not more important.

I think a lot depends on whether you are in a polemical or adversarial interaction, or a friendly discussion.

I find that if the exchange is about converting someone, it is usually going to end up as a polemic. No one really likes to be treated as a conversion project, it tends to feel patronizing and disrespectful. But most people are interested in understanding other's ways of thinking about things, in sharing perspectives with others, and so on. By entering into a discussion like that, it becomes possible to try on another worldview without making a commitment to it.

Sometimes people, to their surprise, see that it actually makes a lot of sense.

When the discussion is polemic though, they never get a chance to enter into the whole worldview, because they are looking to counter the others' arguments. It is hard to see how the whole system of thinking works together, and it is hard to let down one's guard under such circumstances.

 

[Protoevangel]

Hi Greg, try not to be too insistent that the Holy Scriptures cannot be called "the word of God". We know that In the truest sense, Christ is the Logos, the Word of God, but also, we know that all Scripture points to Christ, and that all Scripture is God-breathed. If the words are God-breathed, are they not then truly, the words of God? It is as our father among the saints, St. Seraphim of Sarov tells us,

"The reading of the word of God should be performed in solitude, in order that the whole mind of the reader might be plunged into the truths of the Holy Scripture, and that from this he might receive warmth, which in solitude produces tears; from these a man is wholly warmed and is filled with spiritual gifts, which rejoice the mind and heart more than any word."

And again, as St Nikolai Velimirovic tells us,

"The word of God is food for the soul. The word of God is both strength and light for the soul…. All the saints emphasized the necessity of reading the Holy Scriptures."

 

[GregConstantine]

I see some are assuming a certain nature to my discussion with this preacher, that's its polemical. Are you privy to my conversation with him? Do you know that I know him personally and that he initiated it, and that so far its been calm, respectful, and cordial?
Please don't do that, thank you

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I totally understand what you're saying Meghan. Now, if you have some time, I want to fly to Canada and come to your home and share some Orthodox literature with you. I think you need conversion ASAP! I have 20 questions I want you to answer, a flock of Orthodox catechisms and manuals and writings to peruse, and I won't stop until you are Orthodox...

I think a lot depends on whether you are in a polemical or adversarial interaction, or a friendly discussion.

I find that if the exchange is about converting someone, it is usually going to end up as a polemic. No one really likes to be treated as a conversion project, it tends to feel patronizing and disrespectful. But most people are interested in understanding other's ways of thinking about things, in sharing perspectives with others, and so on. By entering into a discussion like that, it becomes possible to try on another worldview without making a commitment to it.

Sometimes people, to their surprise, see that it actually makes a lot of sense.

When the discussion is polemic though, they never get a chance to enter into the whole worldview, because they are looking to counter the others' arguments. It is hard to see how the whole system of thinking works together, and it is hard to let down one's guard under such circumstances.