Requirements? Can one lose salvation?

[BryanW92]

I would like to encourage people to read this again How To Know What Is Truth - False Doctrine.

I read your web site and the false doctrine article. But salvation is something that has been thoroughly researched in scripture for hundreds of years.

I generally agree with you, but when I got to this part:

"In the end if the only thing someone has to prove their view is their own logic or even a scripture that has been shown not to mean what they think it does through other scriptures then they must accept the truth or deny it."

I get concerned. If we are going to each pull out scripture to prove our point, who decides what has "been shown not to mean what they think it does"??

 

[jbearnolimits]

I get concerned. If we are going to each pull out scripture to prove our point, who decides what has "been shown not to mean what they think it does"??

I understand the concern. To answer your question though, the one that decides is the scripture itself. We have to study it and compare each scripture and word with other scriptures. Sometimes the problem can be a simple lack of understanding the sentence structure. Other times it can be a lack of knowledge of other scriptures.

As I said in the other post, the scripture will not contradict itself. So understanding the sentence structure, along with knowing other scriptures in the Bible, you can easily begin to see what contradicts itself and what does not.

This is why having a firm foundation is VITAL. Because a little leaven will leaven the whole lump. When we lack the knowledge of scripture we can easily accept something as true that is not. And that little lie will effect how we see every other scripture.

But when we get to know the scriptures and hold everything we believe in their light, we can see where we may not have understood something. That is why there is no private interpretation of any scripture. It is ALL connected.

So to answer the question, the answer is that the scripture decides what it says, not our own interpretation.

 

[fozzy]

That's the problem. It doesn't matter what we like. We like to think that we are God's partner in our salvation. The very idea that we can "fall short and lose out on eternal life" is fully Arminian. When the creator God of the universe, through Jesus Christ, has redeemed you, how can an insignificant human break that great work?

Because the bible says so. Ever read John chap. 3? You seem to be coming from a Calvinist persuasion which is sad. They reject the clearest verses of scripture and follow a man instead of following Jesus and Peter and Paul and John. Jesus is the savior of the world not some select group called the almighty elect who can never be lost. I have actually met Calvinists who change the meaning of the word 'world' to fit their skewed beliefs.

So in a nutshell, Jesus is the savior of the whole wide world and yet many will ultimately be lost. So we can lose our Salvation. The bible is clear that we lose it by unbelief.

 

[fozzy]

Thank God He gave true "born again" believers 1 Jn. 1:9-10 to restore us who fail daily.

Fozzy, there is a "third option" and it is believing the Word. Both Calvin and Arminius were wrong --like many ultra conservatives and ultra liberals in society today --extremists. If one is a real "child of God" they are sealed by the indwelling Holy Spirit forever; however, one can suffer loss of rewards in Heaven at the "Judgment Seat Of Christ" for dwelling in sin now (carnality).

I agree. Faith is the great demarcation line between life and death. Faith is not a work that I can perform like chopping wood. It is not a choice like choosing what radio station I am going to listen to. And faith is not an intellectual assent for even the fallen angels believe and tremble. Faith is much deeper than this and produces deep repentance by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Faith has been relegated to easy believeism today but it is everything and second only to God's love.

 

[fozzy]

don't tell me that "It is all the ones calling upon and believing in Jesus name, that will be saved (chosen to go to heaven by God) Because Jesus himself says, "Not all those saying to me "Lord, Lord" will get into the kingdom of God (Heaven), but the ones "doing" the will of my Father will."

So, there's two requirements right there, "The ones believing and calling upon my (Jesus) name" and "those "doing" the will of the/my Father in Heaven will" be saved (spared)...

I am sorry but there is no 'doing' in our walk with Christ. Jesus is a control freak and wants to be in control of every aspect of our life. We need to ease back into the nice cozy recliner of the gospel and prop our feet up and just let him do everything. All your problems will disappear if you surrender all to Christ.

 

[ALoveDivine]

This has been debated ad nauseum here. Neither side will agree with the other no matter how much we discuss it, so we will just have to agree to disagree. Search the scriptures prayerfully and let God show you the truth.

As for me, I am 100% certain that salvation cannot ever be lost. I was certain of that from the moment of my salvation and I am certain of it now having studied the scriptures quite intensely.

You know why this debate rages? Because there are verses in scripture that plainly say that we must persevere in faith to be finally saved. There are an equal number of verses in scripture that plainly say that the believer is eternally secure. Is this a contradiction? How do we reconcile all the relevant verses?

The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints best answers this. Perseverance in faith is necessary for final salvation, but we are persevered by the grace and power of God, not by our own self-effort. God preserves his people, who consequently persevere in faith. From the human point of view, it is a matter of perseverance. From the eternal perspective, we are preserved in faith by the power of God.

Any notion of security that lacks perseverance is wrong, and any notion of of perseverance that lacks security is also wrong. We persevere because we are secure, we aren't secure because we persevere. Security precedes and produces perseverance, because the ground of our security is the sovereign will and power of God.

Arminians elevate the free will of man over and above the sovereignty of God, and Calvinists elevate the sovereignty of God to the denial of the free will of man. Both views are wrong. The bible clearly proclaims the reality of both, just as it clearly proclaims a universal atonement and unconditional election. All the theological disputes and controversies stem from the inability of the human mind to grasp these eternal truths.

 

[Neogaia777]

As for me, I am 100% certain that salvation cannot ever be lost. I was certain of that from the moment of my salvation and I am certain of it now having studied the scriptures quite intensely.

You know why this debate rages? Because there are verses in scripture that plainly say that we must persevere in faith to be finally saved. There are an equal number of verses in scripture that plainly say that the believer is eternally secure. Is this a contradiction? How do we reconcile all the relevant verses?

The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints best answers this. Perseverance in faith is necessary for final salvation, but we are persevered by the grace and power of God, not by our own self-effort. God preserves his people, who consequently persevere in faith. From the human point of view, it is a matter of perseverance. From the eternal perspective, we are preserved in faith by the power of God.

Any notion of security that lacks perseverance is wrong, and any notion of of perseverance that lacks security is also wrong. We persevere because we are secure, we aren't secure because we persevere. Security precedes and produces perseverance, because the ground of our security is the sovereign will and power of God.

What if one loses their faith, do they then lose their salvation?

 

[Neogaia777]

I am sorry but there is no 'doing' in our walk with Christ. Jesus is a control freak and wants to be in control of every aspect of our life. We need to ease back into the nice cozy recliner of the gospel and prop our feet up and just let him do everything. All your problems will disappear if you surrender all to Christ.

You are so, so, very, very "wrong" and I'm not even going to get into the million reasons why with you, it would be a waste of my time, energy, and effort...

God Bless!

 

[BryanW92]

I understand the concern. To answer your question though, the one that decides is the scripture itself. We have to study it and compare each scripture and word with other scriptures. Sometimes the problem can be a simple lack of understanding the sentence structure. Other times it can be a lack of knowledge of other scriptures.

As I said in the other post, the scripture will not contradict itself. So understanding the sentence structure, along with knowing other scriptures in the Bible, you can easily begin to see what contradicts itself and what does not.

This is why having a firm foundation is VITAL. Because a little leaven will leaven the whole lump. When we lack the knowledge of scripture we can easily accept something as true that is not. And that little lie will effect how we see every other scripture.

But when we get to know the scriptures and hold everything we believe in their light, we can see where we may not have understood something. That is why there is no private interpretation of any scripture. It is ALL connected.

So to answer the question, the answer is that the scripture decides what it says, not our own interpretation.

Do you claim to have a greater understanding than others? You talk about understanding scripture and sentence stucture, but then you say that scripture decides and not interpretation.

I ask this because I have wrestled with the Arminian vs Calvinist interpretations/understandings for years. Both sides have valid and very scriptural proofs. I'm not just talking about the extremes, the Hyper-Calvinists and such, but the Low Calvinists and moderate Wesleyans who almost meet in the middle.

 

[BryanW92]

So in a nutshell, Jesus is the savior of the whole wide world and yet many will ultimately be lost. So we can lose our Salvation. The bible is clear that we lose it by unbelief.

Calvinists and Arminians agree with you on that. The real debate is found in the nature of belief and unbelief. People get hung up on the subject of "the elect", which really isn't the issue. We should be asking about why some believe and some don't. I believe and my own brother does not. We grew up together. We're very similar in just about every way. Our wives are even very similar. Yet, I am a strong believer and he is one of those "spiritual but not religious" people who denies the supernatural power of God and the deity of Jesus. I received the Holy Spirit and he appears to have not.

 

[ALoveDivine]

What if one loses their faith, do they then lose their salvation?

If one loses their faith completely, and never comes back to it, they don't lose their salvation, they are simply demonstrating that they were never saved to begin with.

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they are all not of us"
- 1 John 2:19

A person who is truly saved never finally or completely loses their faith.

 

[Neogaia777]

If one loses their faith completely, and never comes back to it, they don't lose their salvation, they are simply demonstrating that they were never saved to begin with.

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they are all not of us"
- 1 John 2:19

A person who is truly saved never finally or completely loses their faith.

What about hose who have faith filled days, and not so faith-filled days and go back and forth, or what if someone else like an Atheist proposes and argument against God, to an immature (Babe) believer in Christ, and it causes them to lose their faith?

Even John the Baptist had his moments of doubt about Jesus as he says in Luke 7:18-23...

God Bless!

 

[hopeinGod]

What an endless cycle of debate this topic has been over the forty years I've been saved. It is, without a doubt, the number one controversy among, in the least, reading Christians. Even those who actually "study," or say they do, believe both ways. And yet, the answer is so simple.

I think because IT IS so simple, that it remains hidden to those who prefer complexity over simplicity. I've explained the Bible's position on this nearly ten times, and always, there are those who just can't, or won't, acknowledge God's threefold plan of salvation: justification, sanctification and glorfication, which deliver us from the penalty of sin, from the power of sin, and the very presence of sin. Each work is distinctly separte from the other.

At the same time we are perfect in spirit after being justified, we are to go on to perfection through sanctification, and neither of those works are connected to the other; for, justification is justification, and sanctification is sanctification. YOu can't mix the two, and yet, there are those who insist one doing so.

God is threefold, and so are we, and so is His threefold plan of salvation. Perfect in spirit when justified, being perfected in the soul as we put on Christ, and, in the end, our bodies will put on incorruption.

Where we are in this life, once justified, is within the realm of sanctification. Justification has passed, and so our putting on of Christ, laying aside every weight, running the race, renewing our minds, etc., which had nothing at all to do with quickening our spirits, is what is taking place today, and everyday, until Jesus returns or we go home.

 

[ALoveDivine]

What about hose who have faith filled days, and not so faith-filled days and go back and forth

Saved, and growing. No one has perfect faith. My faith used to be very shaky too, it is only recently that it has become quite solid consistently. We grow in faith as we grow in grace and in the knowledge of God's word.

what if someone else like an Atheist proposes and argument against God, to an immature (Babe) believer in Christ

This is why it is important for ALL believers to exercise their minds, to value reason, and to learn the art of apologetics. We are commanded to always be prepared to give an answer for the faith that is within us (1 Peter 3:15).

and it causes them to lose their faith?

If this person you are describing is born-again, they will not completely lose their faith, because the Spirit of God is inside of them. They may have doubts, they may question things, they may try to convince themselves of something else for a little while, but they will not completely abandon the faith.

 

[fozzy]

Calvinists and Arminians agree with you on that. The real debate is found in the nature of belief and unbelief. People get hung up on the subject of "the elect", which really isn't the issue. We should be asking about why some believe and some don't. I believe and my own brother does not. We grew up together. We're very similar in just about every way. Our wives are even very similar. Yet, I am a strong believer and he is one of those "spiritual but not religious" people who denies the supernatural power of God and the deity of Jesus. I received the Holy Spirit and he appears to have not.

This is a good point - why do some believe and some don't? It is God's desire that none should perish and all should come to repentance. But we know that this will never happen. Multitudes will die in a lost state. Is it God's fault or man's? It should be obvious that it is man's fault. We have a part to play in our own salvation and it's not legalism to say that.

 

[fozzy]

If one loses their faith completely, and never comes back to it, they don't lose their salvation, they are simply demonstrating that they were never saved to begin with.

This is false. If you say they were never saved to begin with the implication is that we have to save ourselves which is an impossibility. The whole world was saved in Christ but many refuse to believe and resist the Holy Spirit. They die in a state of unbelief and forfeit their Salvation which was purchased by the shed blood of Christ.

'For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.' 1Tim. 4:10

 

[ALoveDivine]

This is false.

So I take it were just gonna ignore that very plain verse from first John are we? Come on, that verse explicitly declares that those who abandon the faith weren't saved. How can you possibly twist that to say something else?

If you say they were never saved to begin with the implication is that we have to save ourselves which is an impossibility.

No one is saved without repentance and faith. Jesus said to deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow him. That's repentance. Without that, and a trust alone in the shed blood of Christ for your salvation, you cannot be saved. You don't believe in the necessity of the new birth? We are just all already saved and most just don't hang on? Where do you get your patently absurd theology?

The sacrifice of Christ was the initiation of the New Covenant, forged in his blood. Repentance and faith are the condition of entrance into that New Covenant. Mankind is desperately wicked and hates God and, though commanded and inherently able to repent and believe, we will not apart from a regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. So those who reject Christ are justly condemned, as they were able but unwilling to enter into the New Covenant.

God has unconditionally elected some to be inheritors of this New Covenant despite their unwilling hearts, and he therefore sovereignly regenerates them by the power of the Holy Spirit, by which they are born-again, given a new nature, and baptised into the body of Christ as adopted children of the living God, and are thereafter forever secure within this New Covenant of grace in Christ.

This is what the bible teaches; universal atonement and unconditional election. Both are true. Arminians and Calvinists both alike will hate this idea, but I've concluded after much intensive study that this is clearly what scripture declares to be true. Scripture also plainly emphasizes both the eternal security of the believer and the necessity of perseverance, a paradox which is resolved in the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints.

We have a part to play in our own salvation and it's not legalism to say that.

Yeah, we have the responsibility to do what the Publican in Luke 18 did, fall to our knees and cry out to God for mercy. Anything beyond that IS legalism, regardless of what you say.

 

[fozzy]

So I take it were just gonna ignore that very plain verse from first John are we? Come on, that verse explicitly declares that those who abandon the faith weren't saved. How can you possibly twist that to say something else?

It would be nice if you could quote said verse because the term saved is not used in 1st John unless its from some uncommon translation. We do not experience salvation until we believe in Christ which is true but to say that someone was never saved at all goes against a multitude of scripture.

 

[ALoveDivine]

We do not experience salvation until we believe in Christ which is true but to say that someone was never saved at all goes against a multitude of scripture.

So Adolf Hitler was saved, he just lost his salvation when he murdered 6 million Jews? You're gonna sit here and tell me that Hitler and Stalin were saved?? Brother that is the single dumbest pseudo-theological concept I have ever heard in my entire life.

I'm gonna say it again. Without repentance and faith no one is saved. I don't care how many prayers they prayed, how many years they attended church, or how many Christian T-shirts they own. Repent and believe, or go to Hell. That is the plain truth of God's word.

Repentance and faith is the condition of entrance into the New Covenant wherein all of our sin is remitted by the shed blood of Christ and wherein we stand justified by the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to us.

 

[fozzy]

So Adolf Hitler was saved, he just lost his salvation when he murdered 6 million Jews? You're gonna sit here and tell me that Hitler and Stalin were saved?? Brother that is the single dumbest pseudo-theological concept I have ever heard in my entire life.

You are only focusing on the individual experience where I am talking about what happened on the cross and what happens in the life of the believer. Both Hitler and Stalin were saved at the cross by the blood of Christ. In their individual lives I doubt either ever came to repentance and so they were lost. You are ignoring what happened at the cross.