Repentance before Baptisim...really?

YHWH's Lion

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So if someone wants to follow Jesus the person needs to Repent and be Baptized.
I'm sure everyone here will agree with this statement.

Ok so tell me, what is the person repenting from?
How does he know he did something wrong?
How does he know what IS WRONG?

Do pastors just accept someone just saying, "i repented" ?
Doesn't the person need to know what they are repenting from?
So that they don't start doing things that are WRONG all over again?

Do people really think that telling someone that they need to repent but not tell them what repentance really means and where THEY can find out what IS WRONG, what is SIN... do people really think this is actually OK?

There is one source that tells a person what they need to repent from - The Bible.
God's instructions tell us what is SIN, what is WRONG.

To tell a person they need to repent but not point them to God's instructions so that they can actually see for themselves what God says SIN is, is really deceiving a person.
Making anyone think that they repented when they really have no idea what they are repenting from is just plain wrong.
 

sculleywr

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So if someone wants to follow Jesus the person needs to Repent and be Baptized.
I'm sure everyone here will agree with this statement.

Ok so tell me, what is the person repenting from?
How does he know he did something wrong?
How does he know what IS WRONG?

Do pastors just accept someone just saying, "i repented" ?
Doesn't the person need to know what they are repenting from?
So that they don't start doing things that are WRONG all over again?

Do people really think that telling someone that they need to repent but not tell them what repentance really means and where THEY can find out what IS WRONG, what is SIN... do people really think this is actually OK?

There is one source that tells a person what they need to repent from - The Bible.
God's instructions tell us what is SIN, what is WRONG.

To tell a person they need to repent but not point them to God's instructions so that they can actually see for themselves what God says SIN is, is really deceiving a person.
Making anyone think that they repented when they really have no idea what they are repenting from is just plain wrong.
This is why there is a period of Catechesis in the Orthodox Church. Before a person is Baptized, no matter what path he comes from, or Chrismated (Chrism alone may be permitted for those coming from Trinitarian churches that believe in "One Baptism for the remission of sins", if they do not have serious doubts about the validity of their repentance at the time of Baptism), a person is catechized. While learning the Orthodox Faith is an important part of catechesis, the most important part is that the Presbyter (or Deacon/layperson assigned to you by the Presbyter) gets to know your life, your struggles, and the things which trouble you the most. He helps you to begin to repent.

Repentance isn't a single day event. It isn't an easy thing to do, and it isn't something you ever stop doing as a Christian. A Christian is constantly repenting. Those who are seen as Saints in the Orthodox Church have spent their lives repenting from the time of conversion until death. They agonize over the sins they still struggle against, no matter how seemingly venial they may seem to those of us who are struggling with the more "major" sins.

*Personal public confession time*

For me, my main struggle is with doubting the sincerity of my Faith because I cannot attend services. I live a minimum of 45 minutes drive from the closest parish, and have been living in a medically disabled state for the past year. I'm just now regaining some ability to get out and have a life, but living in the middle of nowhere with no public transport makes getting to Church a really expensive trip. It's a struggle to maintain a healthy prayer life on one's own, and to combat the lusts of the flesh for the pleasures of carnal passions like greed and lust when you do not live in the community of the Church.

*end personal portion*

My point in revealing this isn't to brag in anything. We each have unique challenges. What is easy for you might be difficult for me, and what is easy for me might be difficult for you. This is the purpose of Catechesis. The Scripture commands us to go out and make DISCIPLES, not converts. Making a convert is easy. But converting without discipleship leaves people with a shallow, empty faith that will fail them when the real difficulty comes.

God uses plants as an example, and they are something I am also very familiar with, as I have cultivated a love of gardening in my time of disability. If I were to take a new seedling of marigold and put it in the ground before it had developed a root system, how would it respond when Hurricane Matthew came blowing through my state last week? Well, of course, the plant would wash away, having a root system that gives it no support against the wind and rain. However, I have marigolds planted outside right now that survived Hurricane Matthew's tropical storm force winds with no trouble. This is because I nurtured them, making sure that they had developed strong root systems before I planted them in their permanent locations where they could flourish and grow.

People are the same. If they are not nurtured and fed with spiritual fertilizer and water, cared for properly, when the storm comes, and they need to depend on the roots to hold them in the Truth, they will find themselves blown away because they have nothing but shallow ground in which they have been planted. And they will die spiritually.

And so catechesis teaches us to learn to repent. It gives us the basic tools before we move on to the more advanced tools of the Sacraments, and of ministry. Repentance is how we acquire the Spirit of peace, and as Seraphim of Sarov said in my favorite quote ever: "Acquire the Spirit of Peace, and thousands around you will be saved".
 
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YHWH's Lion

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This is why there is a period of Catechesis in the Orthodox Church. Before a person is Baptized, no matter what path he comes from, or Chrismated (Chrism alone may be permitted for those coming from Trinitarian churches that believe in "One Baptism for the remission of sins", if they do not have serious doubts about the validity of their repentance at the time of Baptism), a person is catechized. While learning the Orthodox Faith is an important part of catechesis, the most important part is that the Presbyter (or Deacon/layperson assigned to you by the Presbyter) gets to know your life, your struggles, and the things which trouble you the most. He helps you to begin to repent.

Repentance isn't a single day event. It isn't an easy thing to do, and it isn't something you ever stop doing as a Christian. A Christian is constantly repenting. Those who are seen as Saints in the Orthodox Church have spent their lives repenting from the time of conversion until death. They agonize over the sins they still struggle against, no matter how seemingly venial they may seem to those of us who are struggling with the more "major" sins.

*Personal public confession time*

For me, my main struggle is with doubting the sincerity of my Faith because I cannot attend services. I live a minimum of 45 minutes drive from the closest parish, and have been living in a medically disabled state for the past year. I'm just now regaining some ability to get out and have a life, but living in the middle of nowhere with no public transport makes getting to Church a really expensive trip. It's a struggle to maintain a healthy prayer life on one's own, and to combat the lusts of the flesh for the pleasures of carnal passions like greed and lust when you do not live in the community of the Church.

*end personal portion*

My point in revealing this isn't to brag in anything. We each have unique challenges. What is easy for you might be difficult for me, and what is easy for me might be difficult for you. This is the purpose of Catechesis. The Scripture commands us to go out and make DISCIPLES, not converts. Making a convert is easy. But converting without discipleship leaves people with a shallow, empty faith that will fail them when the real difficulty comes.

God uses plants as an example, and they are something I am also very familiar with, as I have cultivated a love of gardening in my time of disability. If I were to take a new seedling of marigold and put it in the ground before it had developed a root system, how would it respond when Hurricane Matthew came blowing through my state last week? Well, of course, the plant would wash away, having a root system that gives it no support against the wind and rain. However, I have marigolds planted outside right now that survived Hurricane Matthew's tropical storm force winds with no trouble. This is because I nurtured them, making sure that they had developed strong root systems before I planted them in their permanent locations where they could flourish and grow.

People are the same. If they are not nurtured and fed with spiritual fertilizer and water, cared for properly, when the storm comes, and they need to depend on the roots to hold them in the Truth, they will find themselves blown away because they have nothing but shallow ground in which they have been planted. And they will die spiritually.

And so catechesis teaches us to learn to repent. It gives us the basic tools before we move on to the more advanced tools of the Sacraments, and of ministry. Repentance is how we acquire the Spirit of peace, and as Seraphim of Sarov said in my favorite quote ever: "Acquire the Spirit of Peace, and thousands around you will be saved".
Ok so tell me, what is the person repenting from?
How does he know he did something wrong? He has to learn from another sinful human as you said?
How does he know what IS WRONG?
How does he know what IS SIN?
 
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sculleywr

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Ok so tell me, what is the person repenting from?
How does he know he did something wrong? He has to learn from another sinful human as you said?
How does he know what IS WRONG?
How does he know what IS SIN?
Those are the questions addressed in Catechism. Yes, we must learn from some sinful human. The early church had to learn the Faith from sinful humans, too. The Apostles weren't perfect. They were just as sinful as any other man. Peter fell into the heresy of the Judaizers for a time and was still capable of teaching many great things.

God has given to us, sinful and imperfect though we are, the sacred duty of making disciples. Certainly God COULD make disciples without us, and even raise them up from the very stones, as Christ has said.

We know what is sin because we are taught it. To some extent, we already "know" it because we have the conscience:

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law,15 since they show that the work of the Law is writtenon their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness,and their thoughts either accusing or defending them.16 This will come to pass on that day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.​

But when we come into the Church, we learn it more and more perfectly as we proceed through sanctification. Catechesis doesn't render us sinless. It simply begins us on the path to perfection, which will be finished when we are glorified together with Him in the clouds.
 
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YHWH's Lion

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Those are the questions addressed in Catechism. Yes, we must learn from some sinful human. The early church had to learn the Faith from sinful humans, too. The Apostles weren't perfect. They were just as sinful as any other man. Peter fell into the heresy of the Judaizers for a time and was still capable of teaching many great things.

God has given to us, sinful and imperfect though we are, the sacred duty of making disciples. Certainly God COULD make disciples without us, and even raise them up from the very stones, as Christ has said.

We know what is sin because we are taught it. To some extent, we already "know" it because we have the conscience:

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law,15 since they show that the work of the Law is writtenon their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness,and their thoughts either accusing or defending them.16 This will come to pass on that day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.​

But when we come into the Church, we learn it more and more perfectly as we proceed through sanctification. Catechesis doesn't render us sinless. It simply begins us on the path to perfection, which will be finished when we are glorified together with Him in the clouds.
You actually believe that what God thinks doesn't matter? And you would rather leave it to Human's to decide what sin is? instead of reading the scriptures and seeing what GOD says Sin is? I couldn't care less about a Catechism. You are going to say that a Catechism holds move value in telling someone what is SIN than what God's Word says SIN is?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You actually believe that what God thinks doesn't matter? And you would rather leave it to Human's to decide what sin is? instead of reading the scriptures and seeing what GOD says Sin is? I could care less about a Catechism. You are going to say that a Catechism holds move value in telling someone what is SIN than what God's Word says SIN is?
That is what most of the world and the world's religions think.
 
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sculleywr

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You actually believe that what God thinks doesn't matter? And you would rather leave it to Human's to decide what sin is? instead of reading the scriptures and seeing what GOD says Sin is? I could care less about a Catechism. You are going to say that a Catechism holds move value in telling someone what is SIN than what God's Word says SIN is?
No I do not. Here's the problem: not everyone who reads the Bible will get the same message out of it, because they will immediately begin to interpret it.

It is not that the Orthodox Church has humans "deciding what sin is". The role of the Presbyter is not to decide what sin is, but to TEACH what sin is. Not just say that lust is a sin, but how to defeat lust in your life. Not just say that stealing is a sin, but how to replace stealing with almsgiving and ministering to the needs of others.

Scripture was not given for private interpretation. If it were, we would not need the Church. What is the use of the Church if not to teach us what Scripture and the Tradition of the Apostles is?

See, if all you needed was Scripture, then you wouldn't need Baptism, Chrismation, or Communion. But Scripture even commands these things, and these things are only available in the Church. Scripture even tells us not to forsake the gathering of the brethren together. Now why would we need the Church, and why would God appoint some to be teachers, if it weren't the duty of HUMANS to teach what the Apostles taught?

You act as if Catechesis is replacing the Bible, but it isn't. The Bible is like a toolbox of surgical instruments. If I tossed a random guy into a room with all the tools to do surgery and told him to perform a colectomy on the patient in the room, with no training whatsoever, would he be able to successfully perform the surgery? Of course not. The point of catechesis is to teach a person how to use the tools in the Scripture and in Tradition to become more united to God. It isn't easy or simple. Narrow is the way and strait is the path that leads to salvation. We must be taught how to navigate that path properly. We must be taught how to use the armor of God. What good is a soldier who doesn't know how to use his sword and shield? Will he be successful in the battle against well-trained enemies? No he will not. He must go into basic training to learn his tools of war. He must learn how to hold his shield and how to use his sword. Then we bring him to the battle.

Catechesis is not going to be effective if it's just making up things. It will only be effective when it is based in the Tradition which the Apostles delivered to us, both in words and in their epistles (II Thessalonians 2:15)
 
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YHWH's Lion

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No I do not. Here's the problem: not everyone who reads the Bible will get the same message out of it, because they will immediately begin to interpret it.

It is not that the Orthodox Church has humans "deciding what sin is". The role of the Presbyter is not to decide what sin is, but to TEACH what sin is.


So tell me where does the Presbyte learn what SIN is? (specific place please)

See, if all you needed was Scripture, then you wouldn't need Baptism, Chrismation, or Communion. But Scripture even commands these things, and these things are only available in the Church.

No Scripture DOES NOT command Chrismation, and Baptism and Communion IS available outside the Church.

You act as if Catechesis is replacing the Bible, but it isn't. The Bible is like a toolbox of surgical instruments. If I tossed a random guy into a room with all the tools to do surgery and told him to perform a colectomy on the patient in the room, with no training whatsoever, would he be able to successfully perform the surgery? Of course not. The point of catechesis is to teach a person how to use the tools in the Scripture and in Tradition to become more united to God. It isn't easy or simple. Narrow is the way and strait is the path that leads to salvation. We must be taught how to navigate that path properly. We must be taught how to use the armor of God. What good is a soldier who doesn't know how to use his sword and shield? Will he be successful in the battle against well-trained enemies? No he will not. He must go into basic training to learn his tools of war. He must learn how to hold his shield and how to use his sword. Then we bring him to the battle.


We must be taught by people that do not obey the word of God? That hold the traditions of men over God’s own instructions? By people that cant even clearly define what SIN is? That ignore God’s own definition of what Sin is?

Catechesis is not going to be effective if it's just making up things. It will only be effective when it is based in the Tradition which the Apostles delivered to us, both in words and in their epistles (II Thessalonians 2:15)



If traditions contradict the God’s own words than they are FALSE, and the Apostles did not teach traditions that would be contrary to God’s own teachings/instructions. What they did teach was:

Acts 20:29-31
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.


So please answer my question:

1.What is the person repenting from?
2. How does he know what IS WRONG?
4. How does he know what IS SIN?

And please don't try to say "their heart will tell them" as that is baloney...

" The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

If the Heart (or as some people like to call it "Holy Spirit" tells someone that something is OK but the word of God say otherwise then who is right? God's word or the "spirit/heart" (Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God"
 
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sculleywr

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So tell me where does the Presbyte learn what SIN is? (specific place please)

He learned from the person who made him a disciple, who learned from the one who discipled him, and onward and back until the first disciples learned from Christ Himself directly. It's the same way today in the Orthodox Church as it was in the first and second century when you couldn't just grab a Bible off your shelf and read the Scripture if you weren't as rich as Bill Gates. Having a Bible in the time of the Apostles and early Church was the equivalent of having a private jet today. We learn what sin is from the Church, which is the Pillar and Ground of the Truth.

No Scripture DOES NOT command Chrismation, and Baptism and Communion IS available outside the Church.

Chrismation is also called "laying on of hands" and it occurs in the book of Acts when the Samaritans first came into the Church. It's part of the Sacrament of Baptism in a way. And How can one have Communion without the Church? Communion is saying "I am one with the Body of Christ". How can you say that if you are not with the Body? And one cannot be Baptized by someone who isn't already part of the Church. If you were dunked in water by a Buddhist priest it wouldn't be a Baptism into Christ. So no, you can't have those things apart from the Church. Certainly, a representative of the Church can bring it to you if you are unable to go to the place the Church gathers (which could be in a field in the middle of town in a place where there are no buildings or no money for a building large enough, for all the Orthodox Church really cares in the long run), but it is always done with representatives of the Church, and therefore is "in" the Church. The Church isn't the building. It is the people who gather inside the building, or around the rickety table they have set up as an altar in the Amazonian jungle, or whatever is used as the gathering place of the Church. Baptism is within the Church not because it is in some well-designed building. If you have the resources to build a well-designed building, then build it as if you were expecting Christ to personally grade the art, architecture, decorations, and layout as if He were the host of some HGTV show. But Baptism, Chrismation (the laying on of hands at Baptism, also called "Confirmation" in the west), Confession (Confess your sins one to another), Communion, Ordination, and even Marriage and Unction (calling upon the elders to lay on hands for prayer in case of illness) are part of the Church's functions as the Body of Christ. Anything that connects us to the Head of the Body of Christ will connect us to the Body, because the Head is part of the Body. Christ is the chief member of the Church. He is our ultimate leader, our Pope, as it were. He chose to act through the Church


We must be taught by people that do not obey the word of God? That hold the traditions of men over God’s own instructions? By people that cant even clearly define what SIN is? That ignore God’s own definition of what Sin is?

No. That is not what being taught by imperfect men means. Was Timothy being taught by God directly, or was he instructed by Paul? Was Paul perfect? No he was not. Paul was a human being. He did his best to struggle against his own sin, and in the end, he was able to say he ran the race well. But he was still a sinner. There is not a single perfect man in the world. You are not perfect, I am not perfect. Certainly, it would be preferable to learn from perfect men, but in the absence of perfect men, we must have faith that God will place people in our lives to lead us correctly. We must remember that it is God Who directs us to submit to those in authority in our lives, both in our spiritual growth, and in our civil lives. It is God Who appoints teachers, not men. God uses men to do great things in the world. He has done that since Genesis and will continue doing that for eternity.

If traditions contradict the God’s own words than they are FALSE, and the Apostles did not teach traditions that would be contrary to God’s own teachings/instructions. What they did teach was:

Acts 20:29-31
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

This is true, which is why we must believe that God preserved both the written AND oral Tradition of the Apostles. We know how the written Tradition was preserved. What of the oral Tradition? Can you see it in your church?

So please answer my question:

1.What is the person repenting from?

From sin, from missing the mark, but more importantly, it is what a man is repenting TO. A man could stop sinning, but even being sinless will not bring salvation. He repents from sin into a life of love of God and neighbor.

2. How does he know what IS WRONG?

4. How does he know what IS SIN?

This has been asked and answered. This is part of what is taught in Catechesis in the Orthodox Church. We teach using the written AND oral Tradition of the Apostles.
 
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prodromos

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So if someone wants to follow Jesus the person needs to Repent and be Baptized.
I'm sure everyone here will agree with this statement.

Ok so tell me, what is the person repenting from?
How does he know he did something wrong?
How does he know what IS WRONG?
The Greek word is "μετανοησατε", and "repent" is actually a pretty poor translation. The word has a sense of "changing your mind", so repenting would be making God the centre of your life instead of yourself.
 
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The Greek word is "μετανοησατε", and "repent" is actually a pretty poor translation. The word has a sense of "changing your mind", so repenting would be making God the centre of your life instead of yourself.


Making God your resource for eternal life, rather than the world, for earthly life. God promises that those who seek eternal life will have earthly life added on as well.

You agree to examine God's invitation, when you are baptised, through the water and the cloud. Israel decided it was too risky and wanted to go back to Egypt, even when they drank from the Rock, received proof that God was able. God was displeased that she did not change her mind, and swore she world never enter His rest.

13Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. Luke 10
 
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YHWH's Lion

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He learned from the person who made him a disciple, who learned from the one who discipled him, and onward and back until the first disciples learned from Christ Himself directly. It's the same way today in the Orthodox Church as it was in the first and second century when you couldn't just grab a Bible off your shelf and read the Scripture if you weren't as rich as Bill Gates. Having a Bible in the time of the Apostles and early Church was the equivalent of having a private jet today. We learn what sin is from the Church, which is the Pillar and Ground of the Truth. .

RIGHT, because what God says about it in his Word has NOTHING to do with it?
We have to depend on tradition by evil men that rape little boys and girls? We need to trust them and believe them and what they say SIN is instead of what God says in his Word what SIN is? – You actually believe this nonsense?




Chrismation is also called "laying on of hands" and it occurs in the book of Acts when the Samaritans first came into the Church. It's part of the Sacrament of Baptism in a way. And How can one have Communion without the Church? Communion is saying "I am one with the Body of Christ". How can you say that if you are not with the Body? And one cannot be Baptized by someone who isn't already part of the Church.
If you were dunked in water by a Buddhist priest it wouldn't be a Baptism into Christ. So no, you can't have those things apart from the Church. Certainly, a representative of the Church can bring it to you if you are unable to go to the place the Church gathers (which could be in a field in the middle of town in a place where there are no buildings or no money for a building large enough, for all the Orthodox Church really cares in the long run), but it is always done with representatives of the Church, and therefore is "in" the Church. The Church isn't the building. It is the people who gather inside the building, or around the rickety table they have set up as an altar in the Amazonian jungle, or whatever is used as the gathering place of the Church. Baptism is within the Church not because it is in some well-designed building. If you have the resources to build a well-designed building, then build it as if you were expecting Christ to personally grade the art, architecture, decorations, and layout as if He were the host of some HGTV show. But Baptism, Chrismation (the laying on of hands at Baptism, also called "Confirmation" in the west), Communion, Ordination, and even Marriage and Unction (calling upon the elders to lay on hands for prayer in case of illness) are part of the Church's functions as the Body of Christ. Anything that connects us to the Head of the Body of Christ will connect us to the Body, because the Head is part of the Body. Christ is the chief member of the Church. He is our ultimate leader, our Pope, as it were. He chose to act through the Church

“For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”
You don’t need to be part of some Building in order to become baptized or in order to have a communion meal with like minded believers.

Confession (Confess your sins one to another),
First of all you need to KNOW what SIN is, and to find out what SIN is you must search the scripture, search God’s Own Instructions.

No. That is not what being taught by imperfect men means. Was Timothy being taught by God directly, or was he instructed by Paul? Was Paul perfect? No he was not. Paul was a human being. He did his best to struggle against his own sin, and in the end, he was able to say he ran the race well. But he was still a sinner. There is not a single perfect man in the world. You are not perfect, I am not perfect. Certainly, it would be preferable to learn from perfect men, but in the absence of perfect men, we must have faith that God will place people in our lives to lead us correctly. We must remember that it is God Who directs us to submit to those in authority in our lives, both in our spiritual growth, and in our civil lives. It is God Who appoints teachers, not men. God uses men to do great things in the world. He has done that since Genesis and will continue doing that for eternity.

Paul KNEW what SIN was.
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:7
7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul didn’t ignore God’s own instructions, what God said SIN was.

People don’t seem to care what God thinks SIN is.

This is true, which is why we must believe that God preserved both the written AND oral Tradition of the Apostles. We know how the written Tradition was preserved. What of the oral Tradition? Can you see it in your church?

Ok, so what did God preserve in his Written Word? What does his Word say SIN is? If you don’t know this, then “Traditions” mean nothing. Because if “Tradition’s” definition of SIN is/isn't is different from what God himself defined as SIN, than the Tradition itself – BECOMES SIN AS IT CONTRADICTS GOD.

From sin, from missing the mark, but more importantly, it is what a man is repenting TO. A man could stop sinning, but even being sinless will not bring salvation. He repents from sin into a life of love of God and neighbor.

First you need to know what God thinks/says SIN is.
Without this, with out the knowledge of what God says SIN is, you may think you are repenting, but you can be living just as sinful life as you did before.

How does loving God look like? Let me tell you how it doesn’t look like:
If one does not care what God thinks/says SIN is, and than continues in SIN… this person then does NOT Love the “Lord thy God with all their heart, and with all their soul, and with all their strength, and with all their mind”

This has been asked and answered. This is part of what is taught in Catechesis in the Orthodox Church. We teach using the written AND oral Tradition of the Apostles.

Ok why don’t you show me where it is written what SIN is.









From sin, from missing the mark, but more importantly, it is what a man is repenting TO. A man could stop sinning, but even being sinless will not bring salvation. He repents from sin into a life of love of God and neighbor.

First you need to know what God thinks/says SIN is.

Without this, with out the knowledge of what God says SIN is, you may think you are repenting, but you can be living just as sinful life as you did before.



How does loving God look like? Let me tell you how it doesn’t look like:
If one does not care what God thinks/say SIN is, and than continues in SIN… this person then does NOT Love the “Lord thy God with all their heart, and with all their soul, and with all their strength, and with all their mind”





This has been asked and answered. This is part of what is taught in Catechesis in the Orthodox Church. We teach using the written AND oral Tradition of the Apostles.

Ok why don’t you show me where it is written what SIN is.
 
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YHWH's Lion

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The Greek word is "μετανοησατε", and "repent" is actually a pretty poor translation. The word has a sense of "changing your mind", so repenting would be making God the centre of your life instead of yourself.
Changing your mind from what? You need to know what you are doing wrong, you need to know what Sin is, inorder to change your mind. - Its not that difficult.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Sin is accepting God invitation to see His power and ability to provide you with eternal life if you seek it, with earthly life added to it, through baptism, and then rejecting Him.

7Today, if only you would hear his voice,
8“Do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah,a

as you did that day at Massahb in the wilderness,

9where your ancestors tested me;

they tried me, though they had seen what I did.

10For forty years I was angry with that generation;

I said, ‘They are a people whose hearts go astray,

and they have not known my ways.’

11So I declared on oath in my anger,

‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”Psalms 95


You must choose, you can't delay:

13“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”Luke 16

Sin is transgression of the law. The eternal law is to love God with all your heart and mind and soul, and to love your fellow human beings as you love yourself.
 
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sculleywr

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RIGHT, because what God says about it in his Word has NOTHING to do with it?
We have to depend on tradition by evil men that rape little boys and girls? We need to trust them and believe them and what they say SIN is instead of what God says in his Word what SIN is? – You actually believe this nonsense?
And at this point you have lost all respect from me. The fact that you have now lied and slandered people that you don't know shows that you are full of hatred. Our conversation is done until you repent of slandering:

Whoever slanders his neighbor secretly I will destroy. Whoever has a haughty look and an arrogant heart I will not endure.
-Psalm 101:5

The one who conceals hatred has lying lips, and whoever utters slander is a fool.
-Proverbs 10:18

Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
-James 4:11

You are not the Judge. Do not judge a man carelessly, for by doing so, by calling people you do not know rapists, you make yourself to be God. I will not speak with someone who utters the words of fools, and slander is the words of fools. Hatred is the action of fools. Calling people "evil men that rape boys" is evil, foolish speak that is worthy of hellfire and judgment. It is not befitting of someone who claims to follow the God Who said "forgive them, for they know not what they do" of those who were torturing Him.

So, repent of your slander, or don't respond to me, for I have no time for people who foolishly slander.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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RIGHT, because what God says about it in his Word has NOTHING to do with it?
We have to depend on tradition by evil men that rape little boys and girls? We need to trust them and believe them and what they say SIN is instead of what God says in his Word what SIN is? – You actually believe this nonsense?
We cannot lump them all together like this - each one must be tested to know separately until YHWH reveals the TRUTH if it can in fact be known.
The real trouble is when none of them are tested or tried to see if they are true - if or when someone or some tradition is accepted without verifying that it is true or if it is false.

When someone's life depends on something being true, and they have put all their eggs in one basket (humanly speaking) ; it is next to impossible with men or for men to learn something else.
But as YHWH'S WORD says, what is impossible with men is
totally and completely and freely possible with YHWH(GOD).

HE is so perfectly nurturing and gentle and at the same time uncompromising and strict and disciplines HIS children in a way that is best for each one; sometimes effecting a quick and unexpected change,
sometimes a seemingly long and drawn out life of change little by little, as YHWH PLEASES.
 
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YHWH's Lion

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And at this point you have lost all respect from me. The fact that you have now lied and slandered people that you don't know shows that you are full of hatred. Our conversation is done until you repent of slandering:

Whoever slanders his neighbor secretly I will destroy. Whoever has a haughty look and an arrogant heart I will not endure.
-Psalm 101:5

The one who conceals hatred has lying lips, and whoever utters slander is a fool.
-Proverbs 10:18

Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
-James 4:11

You are not the Judge. Do not judge a man carelessly, for by doing so, by calling people you do not know rapists, you make yourself to be God. I will not speak with someone who utters the words of fools, and slander is the words of fools. Hatred is the action of fools. Calling people "evil men that rape boys" is evil, foolish speak that is worthy of hellfire and judgment. It is not befitting of someone who claims to follow the God Who said "forgive them, for they know not what they do" of those who were torturing Him.

So, repent of your slander, or don't respond to me, for I have no time for people who foolishly slander.

Truth is Truth i dont care if you find it offensive, these are the Men that you are saying should have the their interpretation of what SIN is instead of God's own Word. See the link below for some information on the abuse.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...-defrocked-rape-child-abuse-article-1.1781825

And we are told to Judge, i suggest you read 1 Corinthians 5, Ezek 33:8-9
We are told to judge rebuke, speak the truth.
I was making a point showing how ridiculous your statement was saying that me must depend on MEN in telling us what SIN is, instead of using God's own Words.. God's own instructions... God's own definitions of what SIN is..

Instead of running away from the discussion why dont you try answering the questions/points as i layed out in Post #12

But i know you wont answer them because then you would have to admit that God's Word says that SIN is the Transgression of God's Law. (Not the traditions/teachings of Men) And Christianity hates God's Law and wants nothing to do with it.
 
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YHWH's Lion

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We cannot lump them all together like this - each one must be tested to know separately until YHWH reveals the TRUTH if it can in fact be known.
The real trouble is when none of them are tested or tried to see if they are true - if or when someone or some tradition is accepted without verifying that it is true or if it is false.

When someone's life depends on something being true, and they have put all their eggs in one basket (humanly speaking) ; it is next to impossible with men or for men to learn something else.
But as YHWH'S WORD says, what is impossible with men is
totally and completely and freely possible with YHWH(GOD).

HE is so perfectly nurturing and gentle and at the same time uncompromising and strict and disciplines HIS children in a way that is best for each one; sometimes effecting a quick and unexpected change,
sometimes a seemingly long and drawn out life of change little by little, as YHWH PLEASES.
I was making a point showing how ridiculous his statement was saying that me must depend on sinful MEN in telling us what SIN is, instead of using God's own Words.. God's own instructions... God's own definitions of what SIN is..
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I was making a point showing how ridiculous his statement was saying that me must depend on sinful MEN in telling us what SIN is, instead of using God's own Words.. God's own instructions... God's own definitions of what SIN is..
I know- I agree with you basically.
Everything must be tested until proven true or not.
 
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