Religious people: Did you feel any guilt when you lost your virginity?

jminnesota

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i agree i would want kids to at least know what protection is if they cant wait. i would even tell my kids if they cant wait at least do it in there own beds vs renting a cheap motel room. i would never be a dad that would turn his back on his daughter or son if they came to me and said they had sex to me parents that do that are jerks. and they push there kids away and there kids get even worse.
 
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Shane Roach

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*sigh*

"The possible relationships between sexual permissiveness, sex-role rigidity, and violence at the societal level are examined. Two judges independently rank ordered the levels of sexual permissiveness of a random sample of 17 cultures chosen from the Human Relations Area Files. A second set of two judges rank ordered the rigidity of these cultures' sex roles, and a third set of judges rank ordered the cultures on their levels of intra- and extra-communal violence. An attempt to rank order the degree of achieved masculinity content of the cultures' sex stereotypes failed because judges could not rank them reliably. Sexual permissiveness was uncorrelated with either sex-role rigidity or violence, but sex-role rigidity was highly correlated with violence. The results are interpreted as being incompatible with theories of sex and violence that stress a single physiological or instinctual factor. The results supported two-factor theories which gave more emphasis to social learning principles than to physiological determinants."


Given that I quoted and responded to each part of your post, it should be obvious that I read your post. Still, it's telling that you lambaste me for not paying attention to what's being said, yet in the same breath admit to not paying attention to what's being said.


Is it any surprise that you have trouble finding worthwhile conversations with a hostile tone? The rest of us actually enjoy coming here, and treat each other with respect - me, RickG, Eudaimonist, AV, LittleLambofJesus, good brother... we couldn't have more different views, yet we somehow manage to maintain a modicum of civility. Imagine that! We are able to *gasp* disagree.

So don't fool yourself. If you have a problem with CF, it stems from you, not us.

Good grief.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>"Sexual permissiveness was uncorrelated with either sex-role rigidity or violence"<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Sexual permissiveness is not correlated with either. Sexual permissiveness is what was being talked about when you showed up. This study purports to show that sexual permissiveness does not correlate with violence nor does it correlate with sex role rigidity.

What -I- said was permissiveness allows prostitution to proliferate because it provides cover for such operations. This study looks at violence in a broad sense, not specifically as it pertains to any incidental violence involved in the sex trade. An entire day of back and forth later and you have yet to touch on anything of substance I raised. I doubt you even register what it was I was trying to get you to look into.

In any event, your link has nothing to do with what is being discussed. You rattle off a list of people with "different" views from yours, one of which I recognize from way back as not having terribly different views from yours. What I wonder is how you all come to a Christian site promoting sexual promiscuity and then wonder why anyone would be offended. My first post was quite simple. I resent the constant promotion of casual sex because, when I finally had it, it was not worth the trouble and cost me an opportunity for something I myself personally would have preferred to experience. And yes, I do resent that about your attitudes and the attitudes of people who refuse to acknowledge that there is a different way to approach this issue that is both tolerant of the issue when sex happens outside of marriage without promoting it.

And no, everyone else here but me is NOT being polite. To even suggest this is the case is to deny simply, observable reality.
 
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Shane Roach

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There's my first post.

Not so much guilt as a sense of betrayal that it had been built up by so many people, specifically our neo-pagan/atheist society, as being such a wonderful thing to have sex, that once I lost my only chance to share that first time with the one person I would commit my life to, I realized what a crock all the pro-sexual-revolution claptrap really is.

Interestingly, a lot of my angst regarding sex ties directly into the greed of this present age, as I waited soooooo long to even consider getting married because it is so ridiculously expensive to even cover basic food, clothing and shelter expenses, much less try to pay for a baby. It all boils down to greed, self serving violence against fair economic systems, and the willingness of most people to just sell out for a short term thrill of illicit sex rather than commit to the infinitely more gratifying picture of sex shared in love with a person you've committed to building your life and legacy with.


First response is insulting.


Ahhhh, Roach. Haven't seen you around lately. I see you've lost none of your charm or sense of the dramatic.

Second response (yours) is also insulting, and twists my words. I never even comment on the quality of the sex itself. The overall experience, I say, was devoid of the sort of meaning that constant societal pressure to partake would indicate.


So, because you weren't good at having sex, the, ahem, "neo-pagan/atheist society" is to blame?

Also, since when is a society get labelled "neo-pagan/atheist" when 70% its populace is Christian, and its politics is dominated by placation to said Christians?


So because you had a bad experience, the only logical conclusion is that the whole of society is to blame!

Neo-pagan/atheist because that's the values we see today. Abortion? Ancient pagans just exposed their kids.

Human population control - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"To halt rapid population increase, Aristotle advocated the use of abortion and the exposure of newborns.[7]"

You may not like it, but these are the commonalities with the past. Discuss it if you want, but insulting me and purposefully twisting my words so you can make cute comments about my sexual prowess is NOT the polite thing to do.
 
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DaneaFL

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Shane Roach said:
Neo-pagan/atheist because that's the values we see today. Abortion? Ancient pagans just exposed their kids.

Human population control - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"To halt rapid population increase, Aristotle advocated the use of abortion and the exposure of newborns.[7]"

You may not like it, but these are the commonalities with the past. Discuss it if you want, but insulting me and purposefully twisting my words so you can make cute comments about my sexual prowess is NOT the polite thing to do.

LOL what world do you live in? You just compared neo-pagans to atheists. Do you have any idea what you are talking about or are you just throwing out words you heard from your pastor?

Most neo-pagans believe in a deity so they can't, by definition, be called atheists.

Also you then quote Aristotle on abortion and tried to link it to this strawman "pagan/atheist" movement you think exists. The ironic thing is that Aristotle wasn't a pagan or an atheist; he believed that the gods were real.

Warning: on the internet you can't just spew ignorance and falsehoods without expecting to be fact-checked.

Go back to your little bible study group if you want to continue that.

Lastly, and this is what made me really upset, even if what you said was true it's just a giant argument from authority fallacy. Who cares what one person says about abortion? Are all of us atheists forced to accept the beliefs of an ancient Greek philosopher?

By that same logic should I lump you in the same group with Fred Phelps and the rest of those Westboro lunatics? According to you I would be much more justified in doing that than you were in your comparison because Fred Phelps is actually a Christian whereas Aristotle wasn't even an atheist.
 
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Shane Roach

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LOL what world do you live in? You just compared neo-pagans to atheists. Do you have any idea what you are talking about or are you just throwing out words you heard from your pastor?

Most neo-pagans believe in a deity so they can't, by definition, be called atheists.

Also you then quote Aristotle on abortion and tried to link it to this strawman "pagan/atheist" movement you think exists. The ironic thing is that Aristotle wasn't a pagan or an atheist; he believed that the gods were real.

Warning: on the internet you can't just spew ignorance and falsehoods without expecting to be fact-checked.

Go back to your little bible study group if you want to continue that.

Lastly, and this is what made me really upset, even if what you said was true it's just a giant argument from authority fallacy. Who cares what one person says about abortion? Are all of us atheists forced to accept the beliefs of an ancient Greek philosopher?

By that same logic should I lump you in the same group with Fred Phelps and the rest of those Westboro lunatics? According to you I would be much more justified in doing that than you were in your comparison because Fred Phelps is actually a Christian whereas Aristotle wasn't even an atheist.

You're hilarious. "Aristotle wasn't a pagan or an atheist. He believed the gods were real."

That's.... pagan.

Neo-pagans and atheists today have the same values as pagans of old, is my point, and you can't really argue against it because it is demonstrably true. Pagan cultures were often rife with cheap sex. Classical Greece certainly was. Pagans had this idea that we were running out of resources on the planet before they even had any clue how much planet there was, thus the fear of a population excess. They promoted abortion and even infantacide as possible cures for that ill same as today. They had a tendency to be elitist, thus all the slavery. Jobs to China and India to be worked at sweat shops for chump change? Sound familiar to anyone?

These impious Galileans not only feed their own poor, but ours also; welcoming them into their agapae, they attract them, as children are attracted, with cakes.[99]


http://www.christiancadre.org/member_contrib/cp_charity.html said:
Pliny the Younger even wondered if charities that gave to the poor should be allowed to exist. Plato stated that "a poor man who was no longer able to work because of sickness should be left to die." Republic 3.406d-410a. The Roman Philosopher Plautus stated, "you do a beggar bad service by giving him food and drink; you lose what you give and prolong his life for misery." Trinummus 2.338-2.339. All told, "classical philosophers regarded mercy and pity as pathological emotions--defects of character to be avoided by all rational men. Since mercy involves providing unearned help or relief, it was contrary to justice." Stark, op. cit., page 212. As Will Durant wrote, "[c]harity found little scope in this frugal life." Caesar and Christ, page 71.

If you find any of the above false, please let me know, but that site is only the first of many you can find to verify this fact. I came across it in numerous books and could, if I had time, track down at least one of them on my hard drive. It is a recorded fact.

In other words, Christianity promoted care for one's fellow man in a way paganism had not. Pagans had the idea that to help the weak was to make them reliant. Sound like anything we hear today?

"Some Christians support all of those things too!"

1 Tim 6:4-6

4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

6 But godliness with contentment is great gain
KJV
Of course some people who call themselves Christians do un-Christian thing. The amazing thing to watch is how often the Bible is spot on in its predictions of how things will pan out, and then people act as if there is no proof of God.

No absolute proof, sure. God is a spirit, and His Spirit is no more prone to be put under a microscope than our own will, conscious mind, or emotions. But there is ample evidence to give a thinking person more than a little pause.
 
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Larry Mondello

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it comes down to teaching kids to wait til they are ready to have sex. hopefully when they marry but if they cant wait til then at least wait til they are ready enough to have sex and deal with what might come after


i agree i would want kids to at least know what protection is if they cant wait. i would even tell my kids if they cant wait at least do it in there own beds vs renting a cheap motel room.
good points.

i would never be a dad that would turn his back on his daughter or son if they came to me and said they had sex.
to me parents that do that are jerks. and they push there kids away and there kids get even worse.
That wouldn't be such a Christian attitude, being that kind of parent.

Sure wish my dad had given me advice on sex, girlfriends and relationships, when I was in HS (and having sex my sr. year).
Felt a heck of a lot of guilt and knew I wasn't half he man I shouldn't have been.
 
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jminnesota

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You still can't. Look at women in Afghanistan covered from head to toe and you can be certain there is still rape there. What's more these women are "blamed" for their rape, even though it's not a sexually promiscuous society.


I did feel guilt and shame when I lost my virginity. It was basically a case of playing doctor gone too far, and because I had it pounded into my brain that being a virgin was the most important thing I could be my guilt was very well understood.
I never regreted it though. Back then it was "well what's done is done", but now I'm actually glad I did because my first married experience with my husband is not going to be a shock, painful or awkward.

One thing I would want to know: If you're in a loving relationship with a good person why the HECK should they be so possessive and awkward about your past experience? I don't understand that kind of infantile thinking, like "You're mine and only mine." You're telling me you are actually jealous about the first awkward (and probably painful) sexual experience your spouse had?! In my opinion someone who holds your loss of hymen or whatever against you isn't worth it.

dont ever feel guitly or bad for something you could not control. what happen happen is all. people that are awckward about a persons sexual past are narrow minded it all. i dont judge people so if you have sex outside of being married it happens. my wife was a virgin and i am happy for that but if she was not a virgin i still would of married her because i love her with all my heart. i know at 28 the chances of a virgin was rare but i found her and its cool. but never feel shame or guilt about your past. god still loves you and your close family and friends will also love you.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Just out of curiosity, and apologies if this question has already been addressed (too lazy to check the entire thread), but...


  1. Are people expected to feel any kind of guilt/shame when they lose their virginity?
  2. If so, why?
 
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DaneaFL

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Neo-pagans and atheists today have the same values as pagans of old, is my point

See, the problem is that you assume that the beliefs of one atheist are also the beliefs of all atheists.

Unlike religious people, most atheists are free-thinkers. I know this is a concept you don't understand since you are used to being told what to believe; but atheism isn't a religion with set beliefs like Christianity.

Atheism has no tenants, dogma, clergy, political ideology, places of congregation, or statements of faith.

Atheism is NOT a religion... it's only a label for a specific position about one issue... the existence of deities.

You can have right-wing and left-wing atheists; you can have atheists who believe in ghosts, aliens, bigfoot, or even an afterlife; there are crazy atheists and some genius atheists out there.

The only thing you can say about any atheist that would be universally correct would be that he or she does not see sufficient evidence to accept any currently available claims about the existence of a deity.

I really don't appreciated you telling me what I and all other atheists believe. Have you even asked one atheist what they thought about any of those issues you mentioned?

Personally I don't believe in any of those draconian ideas that you quoted earlier and I don't know any atheists who do.

Instead of sitting there making stuff up, why don't you actually go here and ask atheists what they believe:

The Thinking Atheist Forum - The Free Thinking Life - Positive Atheism.

That is, if you actually care about accurately representing us. But if you just want to continue to slander us then by all means stay on this forum.
 
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Shane Roach

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I don't assume anything. I have repeatedly experienced atheists and neo-pagans, along with "New Agers" and the like, having similar beliefs. There are, I believe, reasons for that, but we are not going to get to them while people repeat the obvious (Not everyone who belongs to a broadly defined group fits neatly into narrowly defined groups, I get that, can we please move on?) or just make things up out of thin air (Aristotle wasn't a pagan, he believed the gods were REAL), and ignore the points I make.

To sum up, no, I do not assume every single atheist has the same values as every other atheist. There are atheists out there with values more like those the Bible teaches. They are just a minority of atheists as far as I can tell.

See, the problem is that you assume that the beliefs of one atheist are also the beliefs of all atheists.

Unlike religious people, most atheists are free-thinkers. I know this is a concept you don't understand since you are used to being told what to believe; but atheism isn't a religion with set beliefs like Christianity.

Atheism has no tenants, dogma, clergy, political ideology, places of congregation, or statements of faith.

Atheism is NOT a religion... it's only a label for a specific position about one issue... the existence of deities.

You can have right-wing and left-wing atheists; you can have atheists who believe in ghosts, aliens, bigfoot, or even an afterlife; there are crazy atheists and some genius atheists out there.

The only thing you can say about any atheist that would be universally correct would be that he or she does not see sufficient evidence to accept any currently available claims about the existence of a deity.

I really don't appreciated you telling me what I and all other atheists believe. Have you even asked one atheist what they thought about any of those issues you mentioned?

Personally I don't believe in any of those draconian ideas that you quoted earlier and I don't know any atheists who do.

Instead of sitting there making stuff up, why don't you actually go here and ask atheists what they believe:

The Thinking Atheist Forum - The Free Thinking Life - Positive Atheism.

That is, if you actually care about accurately representing us. But if you just want to continue to slander us then by all means stay on this forum.
 
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Shane Roach

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Just out of curiosity, and apologies if this question has already been addressed (too lazy to check the entire thread), but...


  1. Are people expected to feel any kind of guilt/shame when they lose their virginity?
  2. If so, why?

Guilt is a complicated emotion. I have not set myself to study its purported clinical origins or treatments, and am not very familiar with what, if anything, sociology has to say about it. What I know is I tend to suffer it when I violate a stricture that people I respect expect out of me.

The Bible makes the interesting point that, while we do not all share the same values, we all HAVE values. The point seems to be that there is no excuse for not learning and following God's values because, after all, we have values of our own. So if values are ok to have, certainly they are ok for God to have, and since He's God it makes little sense to just ignore the possibility that God is out there and has some values He'd like you to observe.

Rom 2:12-16

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
KJV
In other words, everyone has a law. If you sin against god, with or without a law, you will perish, according to the Bible. God's law is the law that leads to God. Note that it also strongly implies that the conscience goads people in the general direction of God's law, saying, "do by nature the things contained in the law...." That theme is repeated here -

Rom 1:18-23

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse :

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
KJV
Now, having said that, if one does things that one knows others believe is wrong, and they do not feel guilt, they are not necessarily guilty! People sometimes cling to poor values en masse. The individual in question could be clinging to a real and truthful value when society has given itself in general over to poor values. Still, there is also the kind of person who feels no guilt or shame because they just do not care about other people, much less how other people feel about their behavior. I believe this type of person fits into this mold -

1 Tim 4:1-4
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
KJV
Interesting that it specifically says "forbidding to marry" and never "forbidding sex." And also this about being judged over food. Most folks read this in terms of Jewish food prohibitions and Catholics refusing to let their priesthood marry, but it looks as if the world is unfolding such that the literal truth of it will be the doing away of all marriage laws, and I don't think I have to tell anyone about the increasingly p.c. fad of holding people nigh legally accountable for their diet.

In any event, one way or the other, yes. You ought to feel guilty when you do something wrong. There are perfectly workable exceptions to deal with people who cave in to sex before marriage out of passion, youthful exuberance, whatever, even in the Old Testament. No one is talking here about the death penalty for sex before marriage. But at some point, families rely on faithfulness between the man and woman so that they can place their commonly held resources in each other's hands with an expectation of not being abused, and work together to raise their children - the next generation.

This system has a remarkable history of success, nor is it entirely new for people to propose more open systems. Nor is pure, unadulterated sexual license a new thing under the sun. All of these values have existed in the past, and have been practiced in the past. It's just that they do not work well.

Whenever you finally put it all together that your sexual licentiousness adds to the unraveling of responsible sexual behavior in general, and leads to children being born unwanted, or just aborted or left to die as the ancients suggested, then you will at last understand why there might should be some modicum of guilt, even when in your own, specific case everything works out ok.

As for me, as I said from the beginning, I bypassed guilt and moved straight to resentment, because I did what I did out of the understanding that there was nothing wrong with extra marital sex, and that it was a nearly universally wonderful thing. Even the few people who pointed out that early sexual experiences are not always all that great went on to say, "but, you live and learn, and it's better to learn these things before you get married."

So many misleading ideas and so much nonsense out there. And for me, I did not feel guilt until years later when I realized what the real problem was for me. It was not so much the having sex, as it was the lack of faith in God. I knew what the Bible taught, and did not trust that the Bible was trustworthy enough. So I ignored it, and by extension God, and did what the world around me said was right, and was not only deeply disappointed, but also became aware that a lot of things that the world doesn't even bother to mention were now forever lost to me, such as the possibility of sharing that level of intimacy always and only with one person, thus displaying physically that two can indeed be faithful to an ideal even before they meet, and by faith also remain true to each other and to that ideal afterwards, to the benefit of them both, and also of their children after them.

You won't hear anything like THAT on Oprah.
 
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usexpat97

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See, the problem is that you assume that the beliefs of one atheist are also the beliefs of all atheists.

Unlike religious people, most atheists are free-thinkers

I think you just did the very thing you criticized another for doing.

Why would Christians not be free thinkers? No one's holding a gun to our head to go to church. We are free to start staying home and watch Sunday morning cartoons at any time.
 
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