Religion and Science

[The Lady Kate]

Do good ideas exist outside of God?

I believe so. Sometimes people just get lucky.

So in your opinion science trumps any and all presuppositions?

Not all, but certain religious ones, I think. One should strive to be as objective as possible. Which presuppositions would you want to bring to the table?

 

[vossler]

But there are many scientists (as well as people in all other fields) who come up with brilliant ideas, and are not Christians.

Obviously they're not seeking God, genuinely or otherwise. So where are their ideas coming from?

From God! I believe it's because God didn't have an available Christian vessel, so he uses non-Christian ones to accomplish His will.

 

[vossler]

I believe so. Sometimes people just get lucky.

I don't think there is any such thing as luck, at least when it comes to good things anyway.

Not all, but certain religious ones, I think. One should strive to be as objective as possible. Which presuppositions would you want to bring to the table?

Only biblical ones!

 

[The Lady Kate]

From God! I believe it's because God didn't have an available Christian vessel, so he uses non-Christian ones to accomplish His will.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Sounds too much to me like every non-Christian who ever accomplished something meaningful was nothing more than "God's back-up choice."

 

[The Lady Kate]

I don't think there is any such thing as luck, at least when it comes to good things anyway.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one as well. I believe that God allows a touch of randomness in the world.

Only biblical ones!

And what is a Biblical presupposition that should be allowed? YEC perhaps? Or maybe literalism?

 

[Donkeytron]

I don't think there is any such thing as luck, at least when it comes to good things anyway.
Only biblical ones!

Ok! Lets have engineers try constructing a building using pi=3.

 

[random_guy]

This is falling dangerously close to fanaticism. So was splitting the atom divine inspiration? What about the A-Bomb? Evolutionary discoveries? Radioactive dating? Are scientists the prophets of God?

When Ken Miller credits God for his research, do you accept that God is leading him to accept evolution?

 

[vossler]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Sounds too much to me like every non-Christian who ever accomplished something meaningful was nothing more than "God's back-up choice."

There's the rub...what's meaningful? What may appear to be meaningful to you may be to God insignificant or vice-versa.

 

[The Lady Kate]

There's the rub...what's meaningful? What may appear to be meaningful to you may be to God insignificant or vice-versa.

Not sure where you're going with this... from a scinetific point of view, non-Christians have made numerous meaningful contributions throughout history.

Are they all somehow invalid?

 

[vossler]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one as well. I believe that God allows a touch of randomness in the world.

I don't doubt that He allows a certain degree of randomness, but all good things come from Him.

And what is a Biblical presupposition that should be allowed? YEC perhaps? Or maybe literalism?

That is the $1,000,000 question!

 

[vossler]

Not sure where you're going with this... from a scinetific point of view, non-Christians have made numerous meaningful contributions throughout history.

Are they all somehow invalid?

I don't doubt for a minute that many non-Christians have man meaningful contributions throughout history. I would however submit that had a vessel such as Carver been available for God to use He would have used him first.

BTW, I can give you an example of something I find as a meaningless contribution is evolution.

Only time will show if I'm proven wrong or right.

 

[The Lady Kate]

I don't doubt for a minute that many non-Christians have man meaningful contributions throughout history. I would however submit that had a vessel such as Carver been available for God to use He would have used him first.

Every time? Science, Philosophy, Literature, Medicine, Art, Music? All of them?

Are you actually saying that the only reason that a non-Christian added something meaningful in any of these areas is that God could not find a suitable Christian to do the job?

The number of times He's come up short would be staggering if that were so.

BTW, I can give you an example of something I find as a meaningless contribution is evolution.

Why am I not surprised?

Only time will show if I'm proven wrong or right.

Actually, no. The practical application of the theory will prove you wrong... as a matter of fact, it already has. Deal with it.

 

[vossler]

Every time? Science, Philosophy, Literature, Medicine, Art, Music? All of them?

Are you actually saying that the only reason that a non-Christian added something meaningful in any of these areas is that God could not find a suitable Christian to do the job?

The number of times He's come up short would be staggering if that were so.

As God's children I believe He wants to reward us when we please Him, unfortunately more often than not we're not doing a good job of pleasing Him. So, yes God could not find a suitable Christian to do the job and yes it is staggering.

Actually, no. The practical application of the theory will prove you wrong... as a matter of fact, it already has. Deal with it.

There is nothing practical about evolution, it is actually unpractical. Unfortunately I still have to deal with its misinformation each and everyday; such is my fate.

 

[The Lady Kate]

As God's children I believe He wants to reward us when we please Him, unfortunately more often than not we're not doing a good job of pleasing Him. So, yes God could not find a suitable Christian to do the job and yes it is staggering.

That seems to downplay the role of hard work... God rewards those who pray the hardest. Sounds too much like a "health and wealth" doctrine for my liking. Our rewards are promised to us more in the next Kingdom than in this one.

Besides, "As God's Children..." We're all God's children... just most people aren't aware of it yet. A person can please God without even realizing it.

There is nothing practical about evolution, it is actually unpractical. Unfortunately I still have to deal with its misinformation each and everyday; such is my fate.

Care to give any specific examples, or are you content to play the martyr?

 

[Numenor]

As God's children I believe He wants to reward us when we please Him, unfortunately more often than not we're not doing a good job of pleasing Him.

You're really pushing this health & wealth prosperity gospel.

There is nothing practical about evolution, it is actually unpractical.

Another unsupported, untrue assertion. Never heard of antibiotics?

Unfortunately I still have to deal with its misinformation each and everyday; such is my fate.

You're the one peddling misinformation.

 

[Dannager]

Another unsupported, untrue assertion. Never heard of antibiotics?

[creationist]Oh, but that's not real evolution or mutation, Numenor! That's just adaptation within a species! I don't have any idea how species adapt with or without mutations, or what biological mechanism prevents changes in species, but there must be one because my personal interpretation of a book requires it![/creationist]

 

[notto]

There is nothing practical about evolution, it is actually unpractical. Unfortunately I still have to deal with its misinformation each and everyday; such is my fate.

Why is it that the theory of evolution is used to make valuable predictions in research environments and is considered the cornerstone of research in biology and medicine?

Are these the results of the 'misinformation' you need to deal with everyday? Seems like the theory provides you with more benefit than you realize.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/311/5764/1071

The Citation of "Evolution in Action" as Science's 2005 Breakthrough of the Year confirms that evolution is the vibrant foundation for all biology. Its contributions to understanding infectious disease and genetics are widely recognized, but its full potential for use in medicine has yet to be realized. Some insights have immediate clinical applications, but most are fundamental, as is the case in other basic sciences. Simply put, training in evolutionary thinking can help both biomedical researchers and clinicians ask useful questions that they might not otherwise pose.

 

[Numenor]

[creationist]Oh, but that's not real evolution or mutation, Numenor! That's just adaptation within a species! I don't have any idea how species adapt with or without mutations, or what biological mechanism prevents changes in species, but there must be one because my personal interpretation of a book requires it![/creationist]

My bad!!

 

[vossler]

O.K. Here we go again...I say:

As God's children I believe He wants to reward us when we please Him, unfortunately more often than not we're not doing a good job of pleasing Him. So, yes God could not find a suitable Christian to do the job and yes it is staggering.

Then you say:

That seems to downplay the role of hard work... God rewards those who pray the hardest. Sounds too much like a "health and wealth" doctrine for my liking. Our rewards are promised to us more in the next Kingdom than in this one.

Besides, "As God's Children..." We're all God's children... just most people aren't aware of it yet. A person can please God without even realizing it.

Where did I say anything about hard work? Or praying the hardest? Again you twist and distort what I say to make it confom with what you want me to say.

BTW, we are not all God's children.

John 1:12

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Romans 9: 7-8

and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

1 John 3: 1-3

See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

Care to give any specific examples, or are you content to play the martyr?

How can a theory that is wrong and of the thief be practical? We've spent countless $$$, time and energy promoting a theory that in the end will prove fruitless. That's very unpractical and specific.

 

[notto]

How can a theory that is wrong and of the thief be practical? We've spent countless $$$, time and energy promoting a theory that in the end will prove fruitless. That's very unpractical and specific.

You are calling a theory that is the cornerstone of biology fruitless? The fruits of the theory of evolution are found every day in research facilities and medical facilities.

Anyting specific you can bring to bear on your claim that it is fruitless or unpractical? The worlds scientists seem to disagree. Why is that? Why would such a fruitless theory be taught even in Christian colleges and schools? How can a fruitless theory make so many valid predictions and explain so much of the data we have?

What fruits have creationism brought forth in the areas of biology, medicine, ecology, or agriculture? Please be specific.