Rejecting Sola Fide

[StanJ]

Romans 8:30 indeed supports sola fide, which has to do with salvation. James 2:14-26 is not about salvation, but about our walk, which does demand that if we do indeed have the faith that led to Salvation we will demonstrate that Faith with good works, just as Jesus taught in Matthew 7:17.

 

[Psalm3704]

Hey, guys. So it's been a few years since I've been on these forums. Missed this fellowship! Just wanted to share a thought here. So after several years of studying Scripture, I've come to the point where I believe that our works in and for Christ do determine where we go after death. That faith, works, and grace are somehow all a vital, united whole that works out our salvation, in Christ. That salvation is not just initial conversion, but a daily process of discipleship, dying to self, love, devotion, and works of obedience. Any one else feel this way, even if you're technically "Protestant"?

I think it's the title of your thread that's gotten all the faith alone believers to come out of the woodworks to voice their opinion. But you're right in your belief and don't let some sidetrack your knowledge of the truth.








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[StanJ]

I think it's the title of your thread that's gotten all the faith alone believers to come out of the woodworks to voice their opinion. But you're right in your belief and don't let some sidetrack your knowledge of the truth.

I also have come back after a few years absence but I totally disagree with your position here as I have explained in my most recent post in this thread. Feel free to address it so we can discuss it.

 

[Erose]

Considering that in the passage that mentioned in James, he does address salvation and justification. The key difference here is that in the Sola Fide crowd, you guys separate initial justification, with the ongoing process of justification. Considering the initial justification as the only aspect of justification. James is trying to correct that false view, by emphasizing the importance of living a Christian life is to our eternal justification.

 

[StanJ]

Considering that in the passage that mentioned in James, he does address salvation and justification. The key difference here is that in the Sola Fide crowd, you guys separate initial justification, with the ongoing process of justification. Considering the initial justification as the only aspect of justification. James is trying to correct that false view, by emphasizing the importance of living a Christian life is to our eternal justification.

There is no ongoing process of justification. Obviously there is an ongoing walk as far as salvation is concerned because we must maintain our walk and work out our own salvation but it is not the same that James refers to and that Paul refers to.
Romans 3:24 (NIV)
We are only required to be justified once in order to be saved but we are required to persevere and walk out that salvation.

 

[Erose]

There is no ongoing process of justification. Obviously there is an ongoing walk as far as salvation is concerned because we must maintain our walk and work out our own salvation but it is not the same that James refers to and that Paul refers to.
Romans 3:24 (NIV)
We are only required to be justified once in order to be saved but we are required to persevere and walk out that salvation.

And that is where the disagreement is. James is speaking of the ongoing process of justification. He even says so:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21* Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23* and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25* And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

So in what way does works justify one if saved by faith alone?

 

[StanJ]

And that is where the disagreement is. James is speaking of the ongoing process of justification. He even says so:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21* Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23* and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25* And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
So in what way does works justify one if saved by faith alone?

The key to what James says here is; Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
Actual faIth that brings about justification, produces works, but works don't produce faith nor justification.
If one is Justified then they have faith and they produce works.

 

[Erose]

The key to what James says here is; Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
Actual faIth that brings about justification, produces works, but works don't produce faith nor justification.
If one is Justified then they have faith and they produce works.

Your rig that passage is one of the key verses, by showing that you can't have one without the other. Faith and works is necessary for our justification. Not faith alone, not works alone, both. Faith is important from start to finish. We are initially saved by faith alone, and if one dies directly after their initial justification, such as the good thief, then yes faith is all you need. But if you live any time on this planet you better have the works that show your faith, or you will one day wake up without that justification you once cherished.

 

[StanJ]

Your rig that passage is one of the key verses, by showing that you can't have one without the other. Faith and works is necessary for our justification. Not faith alone, not works alone, both. Faith is important from start to finish. We are initially saved by faith alone, and if one dies directly after their initial justification, such as the good thief, then yes faith is all you need. But if you live any time on this planet you better have the works that show your faith, or you will one day wake up without that justification you once cherished.

Yes, despite your typos, I think we are in agreement.

 

[Job8]

So after several years of studying Scripture, I've come to the point where I believe that our works in and for Christ do determine where we go after death.

Evidently you have not studied enough. If you keep at it you will discover the truth that eternal life is A GIFT OF GOD'S GRACE. Nothing you do can add to it.

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7).

So what does Scripture say?
1. WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARE EXCLUDED
2. WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY GRACE

Now, if you persist in your false belief after reading this, and also promote it, you are opposing God, not man. A very dangerous position, since anyone who brings any other gospel is accursed.

 

[concretecamper]

I love these verses in Paul's letter.....a great testimony to the need of baptism for salvation.

 

[Rhamiel]

when Jesus talks about separating the goats and the sheep
our Lord talks about the actions they do

 

[farout]

when Jesus talks about separating the goats and the sheep
our Lord talks about the actions they do

Yes, but He is also talking about those who were genuine Followers, believers, saver, born again .

 

[klutedavid]

Hey, guys. So it's been a few years since I've been on these forums. Missed this fellowship! Just wanted to share a thought here. So after several years of studying Scripture, I've come to the point where I believe that our works in and for Christ do determine where we go after death. That faith, works, and grace are somehow all a vital, united whole that works out our salvation, in Christ. That salvation is not just initial conversion, but a daily process of discipleship, dying to self, love, devotion, and works of obedience. Any one else feel this way, even if you're technically "Protestant"?

Hello Gracia.

Salvation results from the belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Once you believe the Gospel above you receive the Holy Spirit, this is the seal
of your salvation. Works do not facilitate salvation, rather salvation is granted
as a free gift to those that believe the Gospel. Faith without works is simply a
dead faith. A living and active faith is the faith empowered by the Holy Spirit.

 

[zoidar]

I believe we are to trust on the cross for salvation, but if we bear no fruit for Christ, we are condemning ourselves, having gone astray from the salvific light of the cross. We will never be saved by works, but neither will we be saved by faith alone, what will save us is grace through the suffering Christ, and that grace will be withheld from those that believe yet live disobedient.

 

[justbyfaith]

If works in any way save, the only work that saves is the work of believing on the One whom God the Father hath sent. John 6:28-29.

 

[justbyfaith]

Here is the issue as I see it.

Both Catholics and Protestants fully agree, that faith is required for salvation. If you do not believe in God and His Gospel then how can you be saved by it?

The issue I believe is what happens after our initial salvation, call it after baptism, or after we accept Jesus as our Lord. Catholics believe that after our initial salvation, Christ expects something in return, i.e. to keep His commandments, to cultivate our love for Him and our neighbor, basically to do His will, and to develop a loving relationship with Him. If we cease to do His will, or turn our backs upon Him, by committing a mortal sin, then we can loose that salvation. Yes God will give it back to us, if we repent and confess our sins. The key to understanding how we believe it works after our initial salvation can be found in the Parable of the Vine. Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The Father is the vine dresser, and He cultivates us, by pruning us with trials and tribulations and consolations, while Christ through His Spirit nourishes us with His grace. But the branches must bear fruit, if they don't bear fruit then the Father will cut them off from the branch and throw them into the Lake of Fire. How does it say we abide with Christ? By keeping His Father's commandments.

Protestants (from what I understand) believe that these things i.e. you can call them works, will result from our salvation. I'm assuming that the good works flowing from you is not really a matter of the individual's will, but rather in spite of it. And if good works do not flow from you after your salvation, then most probably you weren't saved to begin with, going off of what St. James wrote.

So it seems to me that the main issue is freedom of will or lack thereof. Calvin I would imagine would claim a lack thereof, I'm not sure Luther would.

Anyway here is the difference in a nutshell. Protestants believe in saved by faith alone, while Catholics believe we are saved by faith, hope and charity.

As a Protestant in the Calvary Chapel Movement, I believe that we are saved by faith in Christ alone; but that the result of being truly born again is that the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5). As such, we are not born again by exhibiting that love; but that love comes into our hearts as a result of faith. Therefore it is not love that saves us, but faith: and love in our hearts is a part of the salvation that is wrought in our hearts through faith.

Hebrews 11 really sums it up for me. Through faith, in order to receive the promise, I am obliged to obey. Had Noah trusted every word of God's warning and failed to build the ark, that faith could not have saved any man or creature as that faith would have had no works. My theology can be flawless, my faith in Christ firm as iron, and my creedal testimony might be correct, but if I have done nothing for the Man who died for me, just stood still and had faith, I might claim to know Him, but He will not know me.

Romans 4:5 says, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

. For one to be fully healed of a mortal sin, requires going to a priest to be healed through the Sacrament of Penance.

Is there any biblical support for such a notion?

Yet the way Luther equated justification is that it is like snow covering dung. The snow (God's grace) hides what is really underneath. So for a Protestant to enter heaven at some point there needs to be a cleaning or purging.

This happens when we receive our glorified bodies; and also when we place our hope in this future event (1 John 3:2-3)

Concerning my concerns of the Protestant model is that it gives people the false impression that they can keep going on sinning, and there won't be any lasting effects. The gravity of sin is minimized, and thus really doesn't need to be avoided. There is really no need for sanctification.

Yes indeed. The motivation for being sanctified in the Protestant model is that if you are born again, God has wrought a change in your heart. Therefore there is no need for any other motivation.

Let us suppose a man trusts wholly in Christ to save him. He has believed on Christ and continues to believe on Christ. He believes on God to provide for him, save and justify him by faith. He commits adultery against his wife, mistreats the employees at his business, uses foul language, and is proud.

If he has truly believed to the point of being forgiven of all of his many sins (past, present, and future), he will love Jesus (and others) much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5). This love is always practical (1 John 3:17-18) and is the fulfilling of the law's righteousness within the bona fide believer (Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4).

Thank you for your response, Sir. But to argue that faith plus no remorse or repentance is not faith is a moot point. Such faith devoid of genuine repentance, avoidance of sin, or interest in the specific commandments of Christ seems in my view to be precisely the kind of faith that adopting Sola Fide as one's soteriological outlook can and often does lead people to. I have met people just like the imaginary man described. They were excellent preachers, had memorized much of the Scriptures, affirmed all the Western creeds and believed in Christ with all their hearts. Certain that Paradise would be open to them through their faith in the atoning work of Christ plus nothing. Why get too concerned about how Scripture defines sin when your interpretation of Scripture informs you that none can or need be righteous, just claim the blood of Christ, only believe, and it's all good? There's grace, after all. This Protestant understanding of grace and faith minus loving and personal obedience to Christ as neccesary for salvation is, IMO, the main reason why so few Protestant denominations care much about avoiding wordliness, divorce and re-marriage, denying self, Scriptural roles for men & women, decrying abortion as murder, or fasting. Brother, not saying Protestants can not be or are not being saved, no. But Sola Fide does not seem, in my view, to be truly congruent with the NT at all.

Indeed, apart from being born again, one might come to the conclusion from the gospel message that we ought to continue in sin in order that grace may abound. However, the one who is born again has been made dead to sin; how can he live any longer therein? (see Romans 5:20-6:2)

While he didn't use the term justification, Jesus taught both justification by faith and judgment by works as well. A key problem in soteriology is doing justice to both.

Yes, this is true. My answer to it is that those who are redeemed will appear at the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ, where we will be rewarded for things that we did that stand the test of scrutiny (gold, silver, and precious gems). Because we are forgiven of all things that we did that were evil, we will not be raised to the resurrection of damnation (see John 5:29); only the good that we have done will be judged and we will be rewarded. For those who are not forgiven through faith alone in the shed blood of Christ, none of their good deeds will profit them (Isaiah 57:12, 1 Corinthians 4:5); because in the latter verse, not everyone who is commended for good works will enter in, because there are some among all who will not be redeemed. They will be judged and condemned for their sins. For they are already condemned because they have not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God (John 3:18) and therefore they are not forgiven; and therefore ultimately they are condemned for their unforgiven sins. Note that those who put their trust in their works to save them are not putting their trust in the name and blood of the Saviour to do the same.

I hope that Luther is in Paradise and don't presume to judge him. But certain aspects of his tempermant, attitudes, personality, fruits, and thoughts need to be examined next to Sola Fide and the arguments used to defend it. If Luther had works through faith acceptable to Christ than I believe that Christ accepts him, bad theology aside. But if we examine his works and find them undeniably opposed to what the NT commands and proclaims righteous, his thesis deserves the more scrutiny.

Luther's salvation will very likely be judged on the basis of what he taught, not because it was what he believed, but because what he taught and believed was the truth. If he goes to heaven on the basis of his faith alone, any of his ungodly behaviour doesn't matter, because he would be justified and righteousness would be counted to him because of faith (Romans 4:5). Of course, from man's perspective, we judge based on the outward appearance (1 Samuel 16:7 and therefore we can only look at a person's behaviour to determine if he or she is saved. But God looks on the heart (also 1 Samuel 16:6) and therefore He judges on the basis of faith (Romans 4:1-8). So God being the only judge of whether someone truly has genuine faith, we will have to wait and see as to whether Martin Luther had salvation or not. I have thought for some time that he might be the man in the parable who didn't have on a wedding garment. However, ultimately I am not his judge but only the Lord.

So in what way does works justify one if saved by faith alone?

See Romans 4:2 for the answer to that. Justification in the epistle of James has to do with being declared righteous before man.

I love these verses in Paul's letter.....a great testimony to the need of baptism for salvation.

The washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, in Titus 3:4-7, has nothing to do with baptism, but with the inwardly cleansing effect of being redeemed by God. Baptism apart from faith in the operation of God (through identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord) is nothing more than getting wet.

Also, in Mark 16:16 salvation is assured to the one who believes and is baptized; but is not denied to the one who is not baptized but who believes; for condemnation is there only to the one who believes not; not to the one who is baptized not. The word shall is important as opposed to the should in John 3:16; however the word shall is also present in Romans 10:13, which contains an added step more than just believing also (calling on the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth to save you from sin, death, and hell...see also Acts of the Apostles 4:10-12 and Matthew 1:21).