Regulative Principle of Worship

[mikedsjr]

you added words to the song it does not say. .

I'm saying, in a sense, the song added words to Scripture it does not say.

It does not say i need to hit rock bottom to find God, It says when I hit it I start looking up.

The song says,

'Cause when I'm finally
Finally at rock bottom
Well, that's when I start looking up
And reaching out

I'm not sure how I was inaccurate to the song, because the one singing it is proclaiming they hit rock bottom. Phil 4 doesn't this. I'm not condemning people that do look up when they are at rock bottom. I'm condemning the song for being inaccurate to Scripture.

So you judge this song as not fit for God, wow, i would be afraid to Judge God's servant in such away, but you go right a head handing out judgement. You can not even say well its not for me, fine, but in another church it might be. BTW are you an elder in the church? Who appointed you judge over such things, and sense we are in the baptist section you know baptist churches are independent, we do not have Popes and bishops to over see the church. we have Christ. its why i am a baptist.

I perfectly understand that people choose churches nowadays because we have amazing freedom. In the past when mobility was an issue, you went to the Baptist church down the road because that's how far you could get, or it was the only one around. Today, there are options. I'm strongly opinionated based on Scripture.

If this song was sung in our church, I probably wouldn't sing but understand there was a point the church was trying to make. I honestly probably wouldn't care for the point either because it was Scripture taken out of context. But I wouldn't leave church because of that. I've heard far worse points made.

The reason Amazing Grace is a good song is the song says what Scripture says. We are sinners. Wretched sinners. And we are saved by an amazing grace God gives.

I'll leave it at that. I have not meant to upset you if I have. Just trying to explain my position. Thanks for the talk.

 

[JM]

Can't answer for Jim...but...

Do you disagree with using Psalms as Worship music?

Psalms are prescribed.

If being Bibical doesn't constitute Christian,what does?

You are creating a straw man.

Our Lord was Hebrew,and called at times Son of David due to his Human blood line.

His physical Blood was from God as all babies receive their fathers blood not the mother's.

Jesus taught from the Hebrew Bible,for the most part Deuteronomy.

Christ was Bibical,but Christianity may or may not be depending on their opinions.

Not sure what all that has to do with anything. We are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3)

John: 1. 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Amen.

In 1967 I found Jesus Christ in a Baptist Church and still fellowship among the Baptist,as well I visit Baptist Churches.
I hope you don't report me for disagreement with your statement.

 

[JM]

Our worship music often becomes about us, what we feel and not what the words are expressing.

Did you folks know some churches have taken to the practice of hiring professional, unbelieving musicians, to play church services?

Crazy.

Anyone else find it weird that musical instruments were not used in the church until the 19th century? (baring a few Roman Catholic organs here and there)

From my continued reading it seems instruments were not accepted in the early church or Protestant church. Instruments were used during the Dark Ages but not widely.

Any further thoughts on the subject? I would prefer to keep this conversation centered on scripture and history keeping anecdotals to a minimum.


Just a few points that I’ve read to exclude musical instruments in worship:

- David was given divine revelation to use them (when to use them, how to use them, etc.) which is why we find them listed in the Psalms (in the AV with instructions on what to use)

- The inclusion of musical instruments was not commanded/given by divine revelation in the NT

- Musical instruments were associated with worship in the Temple

- Synagogues did not use musical instruments because they were apart of worship in the Temple

- The early church, following the pattern of the NT, did not use instruments

- The church at large refused to use instruments in worship until the 19th century

- The new covenant deals with the heart, circumcision was of the heart not flesh, worship in the NT is a matter of the heart

- When Protestants, following the lead of Roman Catholicism, wanted to use instruments the argument was made, “to keep our children from leaving the church”

I've read it a few different works over the last few months. I believe it was and Anglican who wanted to use instruments to keep the attention of the children.

What Early Christians believed about USING INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC

Interesting read...

Why do the Orthodox not use instruments in worship? Part 01 | OrthoCuban

Just so we are clear, I'm not saying we shouldn't use instruments, but we should discuss the historical data as to why instruments were not used in relation to the RP.

Thanks,

jm

 

[twin1954]

I just went back to see what the Church praise music was about,I was thinking about the Ark of the covenant.

Do you disagree with using Psalms as Worship music?

If being Bibical doesn't constitute Christian,what does?

Our Lord was Hebrew,and called at times Son of David due to his Human blood line.

His physical Blood was from God as all babies receive their fathers blood not the mother's.

Jesus taught from the Hebrew Bible,for the most part Deuteronomy.

Christ was Bibical,but Christianity may or may not be depending on their opinions.

John: 1. 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. The same was in the beginning with God. 3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


In 1967 I found Jesus Christ in a Baptist Church and still fellowship among the Baptist,as well I visit Baptist Churches.
I hope you don't report me for disagreement with your statement.

Did you find Jesus or did He find you?


BTW if you want we can begin to look at the Ark as a picture of Christ. Just start a thread.

 

[Bluelion]

I'm saying, in a sense, the song added words to Scripture it does not say.

The song says,

I'm not sure how I was inaccurate to the song, because the one singing it is proclaiming they hit rock bottom. Phil 4 doesn't this. I'm not condemning people that do look up when they are at rock bottom. I'm condemning the song for being inaccurate to Scripture.


I perfectly understand that people choose churches nowadays because we have amazing freedom. In the past when mobility was an issue, you went to the Baptist church down the road because that's how far you could get, or it was the only one around. Today, there are options. I'm strongly opinionated based on Scripture.

If this song was sung in our church, I probably wouldn't sing but understand there was a point the church was trying to make. I honestly probably wouldn't care for the point either because it was Scripture taken out of context. But I wouldn't leave church because of that. I've heard far worse points made.

The reason Amazing Grace is a good song is the song says what Scripture says. We are sinners. Wretched sinners. And we are saved by an amazing grace God gives.

I'll leave it at that. I have not meant to upset you if I have. Just trying to explain my position. Thanks for the talk.

i'm not upset friend, just passionate.

But how does it go against Scripture? Israel Hit rock bottom many times and guess what they turned to God. Your right the song is not about following God. It is about following your own will and desires and then hitting bottom and realizing its not about you but God. Its about surrendering your self and will and desires to God, now all that is scripture. In fact the law shows are need for Christ, that could be compared to hitting rock bottom. Its about suffering, and God says through suffering we are refined.

I also like the song I can only imagine by mercyme.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Blind post.

I believe worship music *should* stir up the emotions and get us focused on praising the Lord. That's what it's for.

However, I don't like leaving a church feeling as if I've been to a rock concert instead. If I want to go to a rock concert, I'll go to a rock concert. When I go to church, I expect church.

 

[now faith]

Can't answer for Jim...but...



Psalms are prescribed.



You are creating a straw man.



Not sure what all that has to do with anything. We are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3)



Amen.

I am not debating in this,the statement was clear that I quoted and should not have responded to.

 

[now faith]

Did you find Jesus or did He find you?


BTW if you want we can begin to look at the Ark as a picture of Christ. Just start a thread.

I found Him because I realized the need for a saviour,the lost are not hidden from God.

Ephesians: 1. 17. That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18. The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power .,

 

[twin1954]

I found Him because I realized the need for a saviour,the lost are not hidden from God.

Ephesians: 1. 17. That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18. The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power .,

I will leave it alone for I don't want to give you cause for debate.

 

[now faith]

I will leave it alone for I don't want to give you cause for debate.

 

[JM]

Our worship music often becomes about us, what we feel and not what the words are expressing.

Did you folks know some churches have taken to the practice of hiring professional, unbelieving musicians, to play church services?

Crazy.

Anyone else find it weird that musical instruments were not used in the church until the 19th century? (baring a few Roman Catholic organs here and there)

From my continued reading it seems instruments were not accepted in the early church or Protestant church. Instruments were used during the Dark Ages but not widely.

Any further thoughts on the subject? I would prefer to keep this conversation centered on scripture and history keeping anecdotals to a minimum.


Just a few points that I’ve read to exclude musical instruments in worship:

- David was given divine revelation to use them (when to use them, how to use them, etc.) which is why we find them listed in the Psalms (in the AV with instructions on what to use)

- The inclusion of musical instruments was not commanded/given by divine revelation in the NT

- Musical instruments were associated with worship in the Temple

- Synagogues did not use musical instruments because they were apart of worship in the Temple

- The early church, following the pattern of the NT, did not use instruments

- The church at large refused to use instruments in worship until the 19th century

- The new covenant deals with the heart, circumcision was of the heart not flesh, worship in the NT is a matter of the heart

- When Protestants, following the lead of Roman Catholicism, wanted to use instruments the argument was made, “to keep our children from leaving the church”

I've read it a few different works over the last few months. I believe it was and Anglican who wanted to use instruments to keep the attention of the children.

What Early Christians believed about USING INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC

Interesting read...

Why do the Orthodox not use instruments in worship? Part 01 | OrthoCuban

Just so we are clear, I'm not saying we shouldn't use instruments, but we should discuss the historical data as to why instruments were not used in relation to the RP.

Thanks,

jm

Any thoughts on the above?

 

[Bluelion]

Any thoughts on the above?

is this asking anyone?

I don't think hiring musicians, should be aloud Christian or not. Its not about the music its about The word. I do understand churches try to entertain people these days, i am against it. But say you have someone in the church who can play guitar and another drums and they want to play for the church in worship, that is fine. I feel the word of God is the center and what should be preached, but preacher rarely go to the Bible for there sermon instead electing to tell a story about them self and how they relate to God. I think this is mistake people fall back on the preacher and not Jesus when tested. So you get many people say well my preachers says so and so, I always say and what does Jesus say, you would be surprise how many people can not quote anything from the Bible. My brother is one of these people, He started telling me a story about Joseph and how it touch him, he was quoting everything from the preacher, but I asked he what part do you like, he said well the preacher said this. I said have you read it, oh i know the story, went i started point out what the Bible says about him little details. He was like well they didn't say that in church. He had no idea what the Bible said only his preacher. So what happens if he is tested? he falls that is what because he does not have the knowledge the preacher has. That is the bigger problem i think.

 

[Ascendo]

is this asking anyone?

I don't think hiring musicians, should be aloud Christian or not. Its not about the music its about The word.

Are you for hiring a pastor to preach the Word?

 

[mikedsjr]

I don't mind a paid music minister. The music played in a church probably is far more significant nowadays than the sermon. People are less likely to remember the sermons because they aren't repetitive in church. People will remember the songs. And here is where the modern worship pastor has the opportunity to teach theology with specific music, but mostly they sing generic songs to god that could be sung by a Muslim, Jew or even a Mormon.

 

[JM]

Unbelievers should not be paid to lead Christian worship.

 

[twin1954]

Are you for hiring a pastor to preach the Word?

That is one of the really big problems with churches today they hire preachers. Not one man ever in the Scriptures were hired by men they were called by God.

I am not against paying pastors so they can fulfill their calling without the distraction of having to do other work to feed his family. It certainly is pretty clear in the writings of Paul that pastors should be cared for in their physical needs. But for a man to seek a job as a pastor is not of God. God calls His men and puts them in the place He has prepared them for. Pastor is a calling from God not a vocation a man aspires to.

The problem is that when churches hire men as preachers/pastors they can also fire them. Therefore the man must do and say what pleases the people instead of that which is pleasing to God. A man who is afraid of losing his income will compromise everything in order to keep it.

Pastors/preachers are not hired and fired they are called.

Also I find no such thing as music ministers, youth ministers, or any other kind of hired ministry in the New Testament church.

 

[mikedsjr]

Something else you don't find in the Scriptures is Christian music or Christian radio where people will listen to songs that are not Scripturally sound.

There is nothing wrong with paying worship ministers or church secretaries, or the lawnmowers. The issue is rightly handling Scripture in songs. That includes historical hymns. For instance, "He Lives" is a bad written hymn and just as bad as most worshiip songs today. But people don't care if it is consistent with Scripture. And yet it is and that's the one reason the songs today are bad worship songs.

 

[JM]

Something else you don't find in the Scriptures is Christian music or Christian radio where people will listen to songs that are not Scripturally sound.

There is nothing wrong with paying worship ministers or church secretaries, or the lawnmowers. The issue is rightly handling Scripture in songs. That includes historical hymns. For instance, "He Lives" is a bad written hymn and just as bad as most worshiip songs today. But people don't care if it is consistent with Scripture. And yet it is and that's the one reason the songs today are bad worship songs.

"He Lives" and a boat load of other songs from that era are horrible!

"Andy walks with me and talks with me..."

 

[twin1954]

Something else you don't find in the Scriptures is Christian music or Christian radio where people will listen to songs that are not Scripturally sound.

There is nothing wrong with paying worship ministers or church secretaries, or the lawnmowers. The issue is rightly handling Scripture in songs. That includes historical hymns. For instance, "He Lives" is a bad written hymn and just as bad as most worshiip songs today. But people don't care if it is consistent with Scripture. And yet it is and that's the one reason the songs today are bad worship songs.

I am convinced that any radio, TV, or any other "ministry" which has to ask for money to continue is not of God. If God called you to it He takes care of it. That includes missionaries and itinerant preachers.

Simply put, if you have to ask for support then God ain't in it.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

"He Lives" and a boat load of other songs from that era are horrible!

"Andy walks with me and talks with me..."

I wanna puke all over my shoes every time I hear that song about Andy.