Regulative Principle of Worship

[JM]

The Regulative Principle is just a way to sum up the idea that we cannot worship God any old way we like, that we worship Him the way He has revealed it to us in His word.

Wiki:

The regulative principle of worship is a teaching shared by some Calvinists and Anabaptists on how the Bible orders public worship. The substance of the doctrine regarding worship is that only those elements that are instituted or appointed by command or example or which can be deduced by good and necessary consequence from Scripture are permissible in worship, and that whatever is not commanded or cannot be deduced by good and necessary consequence from Scripture is prohibited. The term "regulative principle" is less frequently broadened to apply to other areas such as church government [1][2][page needed], but in this sense it becomes synonymous with the principle of sola scriptura.

The regulative principle is often contrasted with the normative principle of worship which teaches that whatever is not prohibited in Scripture is permitted in worship, as long as it is agreeable to the peace and unity of the Church. In short, there must be agreement with the general practice of the Church and no prohibition in Scripture for whatever is done in worship.
The normative principle of worship is the generally accepted approach to worship practiced by Anglicans, Evangelicals, and Methodists. The regulative principle of worship is generally practiced by the conservative Reformed churches, Restoration Movement, and in other conservative Protestant denominations, and it finds expression in confessional documents such as the Westminster Confession of Faith (see Chapter 21), the Heidelberg Catechism, the Belgic Confession, and the London Baptist Confession of Faith.
​

Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America > Regulative Principle of Worship

We live in a day in which the concept of worship has taken on many different meanings among evangelical churches in America and around the world. The worship services of many so-called “seeker-sensitive” churches are designed to appeal to the unbeliever on his own terms, thus tending to give the worship services of those churches a very distinctive “entertainment” flair. The worship service of the typical charismatic church is long on music, loud, rhythm-driven music that is designed to stir the emotions, but short on the exposition of Scripture which should be the foundation of true religious emotions. Even many of the more conservative evangelical churches include activities in the worship service that make a Reformed believer who cherishes the regulative principle uncomfortable.

​

Which view do you hold to and why?

Yours in the Lord,

j

 

[JM]

John A Broadus (1827-1895 of Southern Baptist Seminary fame):15:9


“The citation is from Isa 29:13…Isaiah means to distinguish between a worship of God that is taught by men, and that which is according to the teaching of God’s word …In vain , i.e. it is not acceptable to God, nor profitable for themselves. So at the present day many persons claim a divine authority for ideas and practices which are simply of human origin. We are not only under no obligation to conform to these, but it is our duty to oppose them wherever they tend to the violation or neglect of God’s commandments.” Commentary on Matthew 15:9

 

[ProgressiveCOC]

I hold to the informative principle of worship-whatever does not contradict scripture is permissible.

You see, silence neither prohibits nor outright permits. There are further questions to ask. Does said practice Glorify God. Does it edify man? Does it teach us profound truths? etc.

Nowhere does the bible claim we must have authorization even for peripherals. That is a man-made doctrine.

 

[OzSpen]

JM,

Under which principle of worship is this included?

Praise him with trumpet sound;
praise him with lute and harp!
4 Praise him with tambourine and dance;
praise him with strings and pipe!
5 Praise him with sounding cymbals;
praise him with loud clashing cymbals!
6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!
Praise the Lord! (Psalm 150:3-6 ESV)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

John 4:23-24

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

23 But the time is coming — indeed, it’s here now — when the true worshippers will worship the Father spiritually and truly, for these are the kind of people the Father wants worshipping him. 24 God is spirit; and worshippers must worship him spiritually and truly.”


because



"flesh profits nothing"
"man's wisdom is foolish"
"don't trust in the strength of man" ("I (Yhwh) curse those who trust flesh")

 

[jmcorn]

As far as Praise and Worship Style music, I find these verses help me to filter what we play. I am not sure if this is the worship you were talking about.

Psalms 34:1-3 KJV

I will bless the Lord at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth. My soul shall make her boast in the Lord : the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad. O magnify the Lord with me, and let us exalt his name together.

 

[OzSpen]

As far as Praise and Worship Style music, I find these verses help me to filter what we play. I am not sure if this is the worship you were talking about.

Psalms 34:1-3 KJV

I will bless the Lord at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth. My soul shall make her boast in the Lord : the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad. O magnify the Lord with me, and let us exalt his name together.

That gives us an excellent parameter for content, but what about the style? Should this be done with thumping contemporary rock music where the 'music' overwhelms the vocalists and congregation, or should it be with piano and organ and, for example, 'Crown him with many crowns' or something in between?

In my part of the world, I'm finding the older generation's view of music is being sacrificed for a youth style of music.

 

[jmcorn]

That gives us an excellent parameter for content, but what about the style? Should this be done with thumping contemporary rock music where the 'music' overwhelms the vocalists and congregation, or should it be with piano and organ and, for example, 'Crown him with many crowns' or something in between?

In my part of the world, I'm finding the older generation's view of music is being sacrificed for a youth style of music.

Psalms 150:3-5 KJV

Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

Psalms 33:3 KJV

Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.

According to what David says in Psalms, I think the Praise and Worship style is more Biblical. For the most part he is throwing most of the instrumments at the time in there. He also says to make it loud. He also says to sing to him a new song.

I think that most of the modern Praise and Worship is different from the Rock genre in that the music and and lyrics are sometimes more simple and repetitive so that the congregation can easily sing along while still using the same instruments as a Rock band.

I think that we may have lost some of the youth especially in southern Baptist churches over the past years due to church being so boring to them. I think an attempt is being made in most churches to reach out to the Youth of today. Music is a good way of doing that. The older generation in our church really likes the style music we play. Sure had had to get used to it at some point, but if the transition was done well it should be better for everyone.

I do play in my churches Praise and Worship band so I may be somewhat biased though. I did grow up in a church for 30 years with piano and organ. Then went to a community church with bands. IMO the P&W music is more Worshipful than most of the older Hymns, However we do play some hymns with the P&W band.

This is our setlist for this Sunday:
You you are God by Gateway Worship,
The Great I Am by New Life Worship,
One things remains by Passion.

All of these can be found on YouTube. Check them out and listen to the lyrics.

 

[jmcorn]

I meant to also say that not all Contemporary Christian music is suitable for the Church but I think listening to it going down the road is fine.

 

[OzSpen]

jmcorn,

Psalm 33:3 in the ESV translates differently to the KJV. It states:

Sing to him a new song;
play skilfully on the strings, with loud shouts.
​

Playing on the acoustic strings accompanied by loud shouts is very different from having to be exposed to amplified guitars, basses, keyboards, drums, etc. that drown out the congregational singing.

I do agree that much of the church music needs to become more conversant with what people sing these days. But when I was in my 20s and a rock DJ on radio - playing Elvis, the Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, the Rolling Stones, the Beach Boys, Manfred Man, Col Joye, John Farnham, Johnny O'Keefe, etc. - I did not listen to these artists for personal pleasure. I went home to listen to Jim Reeves, Johnny Cash, Marty Robbins and my Aussie favourite, Slim Dusty.

In my teens and 20s, rock music was far from my personal taste. I'm a boy from the bush (raised on a sugar cane farm) who loves his country music. Only recently I came across this glorious content sung country style, 'On my Father's side' (The Barn Again Gang).

I don't think we are going to get consensus on music style in the church this side of heaven, but 'Great is thy faithfulness' resonates more with my exalting the Lord than some of the contemporary lyrics.

Oz

Psalms 150:3-5 KJV

Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

Psalms 33:3 KJV

Sing unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.

According to what David says in Psalms, I think the Praise and Worship style is more Biblical. For the most part he is throwing most of the instrumments at the time in there. He also says to make it loud. He also says to sing to him a new song.

I think that most of the modern Praise and Worship is different from the Rock genre in that the music and and lyrics are sometimes more simple and repetitive so that the congregation can easily sing along while still using the same instruments as a Rock band.

I think that we may have lost some of the youth especially in southern Baptist churches over the past years due to church being so boring to them. I think an attempt is being made in most churches to reach out to the Youth of today. Music is a good way of doing that. The older generation in our church really likes the style music we play. Sure had had to get used to it at some point, but if the transition was done well it should be better for everyone.

I do play in my churches Praise and Worship band so I may be somewhat biased though. I did grow up in a church for 30 years with piano and organ. Then went to a community church with bands. IMO the P&W music is more Worshipful than most of the older Hymns, However we do play some hymns with the P&W band.

This is our setlist for this Sunday:
You you are God by Gateway Worship,
The Great I Am by New Life Worship,
One things remains by Passion.

All of these can be found on YouTube. Check them out and listen to the lyrics.

 

[jmcorn]

The whole idea is to promote corporate worship. We do this by leading and providing a means for the congregation to sing. We are singing to God and not singing so that other people can hear us.

Why is it OK for people to go to a concert and sing to the top of their lungs or for Christians to go to a football stadium and cheer loudly for their team and not be able to do it at church.

 

[OzSpen]

The whole idea is to promote corporate worship. We do this by leading and providing a means for the congregation to sing. We are singing to God and not singing so that other people can hear us.

Why is it OK for people to go to a concert and sing to the top of their lungs or for Christians to go to a football stadium and cheer loudly for their team and not be able to do it at church.

They are not the points I'm raising. I note that you did not address the content of my last post to you.

 

[jmcorn]

jmcorn,

Psalm 33:3 in the ESV translates differently to the KJV. It states:
Sing to him a new song;
play skilfully on the strings, with loud shouts.
Playing on the acoustic strings accompanied by loud shouts is very different from having to be exposed to amplified guitars, basses, keyboards, drums, etc. that drown out the congregational singing.

I do agree that much of the church music needs to become more conversant with what people sing these days. But when I was in my 20s and a rock DJ on radio - playing Elvis, the Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, the Rolling Stones, the Beach Boys, Manfred Man, Col Joye, John Farnham, Johnny O'Keefe, etc. - I did not listen to these artists for personal pleasure. I went home to listen to Jim Reeves, Johnny Cash, Marty Robbins and my Aussie favourite, Slim Dusty.

In my teens and 20s, rock music was far from my personal taste. I'm a boy from the bush (raised on a sugar cane farm) who loves his country music. Only recently I came across this glorious content sung country style, 'On my Father's side' (The Barn Again Gang).

I don't think we are going to get consensus on music style in the church this side of heaven, but 'Great is thy faithfulness' resonates more with my exalting the Lord than some of the contemporary lyrics.

Oz

Ok here I go. The biggest problem I see with your argument is the fact that you listen to country music outside of church. They use guitars, basses, drums, and steel guitars, but you are opposed to listening to that style music at church. We play hymns in a country style as well along with contemporary praise and worship style. All of which can be heard on the radio daily.


There are many different styles of Christian music out there. None of which are played with a piano and organ. Matter of fact I haven't heard a song with just a piano and organ in over 30 years. There is nothing about a piano or organ that make them more worshipful or more Godly. I have not researched this but many people have told me that the pianos were first used in the bars and were then brought into the church.

So my opinion is that if you feel that you can worship better with a piano and organ then by all means do so. This does not mean it is better than any other style. I am sure this style music is appealing to some of the older generations because they are used to it and that is what they expect to hear at church.

Listen to Lynda Randle's Just a little talk with Jesus and some of her other songs. They are country style. There are many others I can not think of right now.

 

[OzSpen]

jmcorn,

Why have you misrepresented what I said? At no point have I ever said that I oppose country style or contemporary praise and worship style. I urge you not to distort what I say.

Then you have the audacity to state:

There are many different styles of Christian music out there. None of which are played with a piano and organ. Matter of fact I haven't heard a song with just a piano and organ in over 30 years. There is nothing about a piano or organ that make them more worshipful or more Godly.

This is another false statement. In the church I attend weekly, there is piano and organ and the pastor on flute played EVERY WEEK. Yes, piano and organ. My wife is one of the pianists on roster. There are still some churches that use piano and organ for church services. If you go to the City Tabernacle Baptist Church near downtown Brisbane, you will enter a very large, ancient church building where the main music of accompaniment is a pipe organ that is played rather loudly.

I urge you to become accurate in your understanding of what I write.

Ok here I go. The biggest problem I see with your argument is the fact that you listen to country music outside of church. They use guitars, basses, drums, and steel guitars, but you are opposed to listening to that style music at church. We play hymns in a country style as well along with contemporary praise and worship style. All of which can be heard on the radio daily.

There are many different styles of Christian music out there. None of which are played with a piano and organ. Matter of fact I haven't heard a song with just a piano and organ in over 30 years. There is nothing about a piano or organ that make them more worshipful or more Godly. I have not researched this but many people have told me that the pianos were first used in the bars and were then brought into the church.

So my opinion is that if you feel that you can worship better with a piano and organ then by all means do so. This does not mean it is better than any other style. I am sure this style music is appealing to some of the older generations because they are used to it and that is what they expect to hear at church.

Listen to Lynda Randle's Just a little talk with Jesus and some of her other songs. They are country style. There are many others I can not think of right now.

 

[jmcorn]

I thought you were implying that you did not approve of it. Sorry

Also I meant to say there is no Contemporary Christian music played with just a piano and organ. The only place you will find that is in certain churches.

 

[OzSpen]

I thought you were implying that you did not approve of it. Sorry

Also I meant to say there is no Contemporary Christian music played with just a piano and organ. The only place you will find that is in certain churches.

Apologies accepted.

Your second paragraph is false. There was contemporary Christian music and traditional hymns played in the church I attended this morning and there was only the accompaniment of piano, organ and flute.

So contemporary music is played in my church with piano and organ. I suggest that you gain a broader experience of what is happening around the world.

However, I do have issues with only piano and organ and flute as it is not the kind of music that most people in our culture listen to - as radio surveys demonstrate.

I know that we should not allow the world to set the standard of music, but our foundation in music comes from the Jews. This was their approach to praise and worship:

Praise the Lord!
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens!
2 Praise him for his mighty deeds;
praise him according to his excellent greatness!
3 Praise him with trumpet sound;
praise him with lute and harp!
4 Praise him with tambourine and dance;
praise him with strings and pipe!
5 Praise him with sounding cymbals;
praise him with loud clashing cymbals!
6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!
Praise the Lord! (Psalm 150:1-6 ESV)
​

Praising the Lord with tambourine and dance, sounding cymbals and loud clashing cymbals would awaken a few people in my church. I'm raising the issue of music at a special meeting ('think tank') called for next Sunday after church to discuss ways forward for my church.

 

[jmcorn]

I thought you were implying that you did not approve of it. Sorry

Also I meant to say there is no Contemporary Christian music played with just a piano and organ. The only place you will find that is in certain churches.

This second part was supposed to something about a radio in it. So let me try to say it again. I must have been sleepy.

Also I meant to say there is no Contemporary Christian music played on the radio anymore with just a piano and organ. The only place you will find that is in certain churches.

 

[miamited]

Hi JM,

Well, I find that worship for our God and Father is really about the individual heart. As far as what music or clothing constitutes acceptable worship practices, I am always mindful of what the Scriptures teach and what the very first fellowships of believers practiced.

As regards clothing, I don't believe that the very first believers gathered with any other clothes than what they were normally wearing throughout the week. The only Scriptural instruction is that it be modest. As far as whether or not it needs to be some nice looking suit for men or overly done dress for ladies, I'm mindful that Jesus seemed to condemn those who practiced this principle that the clothes make the person. He spoke regarding John the Baptist, who he claimed was the greatest man born of women in his faithfulness to his Father, that he wore camels hair clothing which I think would clearly indicate just a standard every day tunic. He then asked the people what they had gone to see and said to them that those who were fine clothes are found in palaces.

So, I don't believe, other than a piece of clothing being modest in covering the body, that our efforts to 'dress people up' to go to worship God is necessarily what God is asking of us.

As to music, I do believe that the sounds of the instruments should be secondary to the voices of the people. Whether it is 'How Great Thou Art' or ' Our God is an Awesome God' isn't of much importance to me, so long as the words of the song are of praise, love and thanksgiving to God.

As to the practices of the 'order of service', well, I don't cotton to a lot of pomp and circumstance. I don't look for a lot of established practices of the 'traditions' that some fellowship services tend to include. I'm for simple singing and rejoicing with songs sung from a heart that is mindful of the words they are singing and what they are saying to God and the heart that is singing them, singing them to and for God's glory. I am for simple teaching of the truth. I'm not interested in listening to a preacher telling me that such and such is what so and so believed or wrote as his understanding of God, but rather just simply tell me what God's word says and expound on that.

I'm always wary, when conversing with those who are a part of the 'church', that they seem to be constantly getting their understanding not so much from the direct revelation of God's word, but so often from some later person's understanding and then teaching that that is the truth. I'm so very often confused when discussing the doctrines of purgatory and annulment of marriage and infallibility of the pope and many such others, that the discussion begins with them not by opening the word of God and letting the Spirit give enlightenment to the reader, but rather with Saint so and so said and pope this and that decreed, that this is what the word of God says. When I read the few passages of Scripture that are generally thrown out as evidence, my heart never seems to come under the same conviction of meaning that Saint so and so or pope this and that had.

So, for me and my understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit, that necessarily means that one of us isn't understanding him. So, my corporate worship choice is that whatever music we sing, it is acceptable in the words that we say and that the heart or the one singing is singing the praises of the song individually to God. That the teaching be fairly simple and in line with what the Spirit has convicted me is the truth of God.

Peter wrote of those who tried to make Paul's teaching difficult to understand as being under God's condemnation. I believe that God gave his Son the old 'KISS' instruction is his teaching. Keep it simple Son.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[jmcorn]

Ted, I agree with everything you have just said. Like I said in an earlier post I mentioned attend a Southern Baptist Church for 30 years before leaving it to attend a community church.

I grew up with this type of legalism you are talking about.
We had to dress up to go to church. We had to sing hymns. Was not supposed to cut grass on Sundays and so on...

The community churches in our area have cut out most of that. Our preacher never wears a suit. As a member of the Praise and Worship team I am free to wear shorts and tshirt if I want to or even a hat.
All of our songs are songs of praise, love and thanksgiving to God. There are some churches in our town that if went to them you would think you were in a Rock concert. Thing is that they are reaching over 50,000 people at multiple campuses per Sunday. Some of them are people that would not normally attend Church anywhere. The church is Newspring Church which started in the small town of Anderson, SC. Check them out online.

What is most important is our relationship with Jesus. Focusing on all this other stuff IMO takes away from what we are supposed to be doing. And that is Loving God with all our heart, loving our neighbor as ourself, and telling others about Jesus.

 

[miamited]

Hi jmcorn,

Thanks. I actually live within 25 miles of that fellowship in Anderson. I used to minister to the homeless in Miami, Fl. and one of the most oft heard reasons, when asking them to come to worship with us on Sunday was that they didn't have anything 'presentable' to wear. It broke my heart that people would stay away from worshiping and participating in corporate worship because they had been indoctrinated into this idea that you had to have some set of 'fancy' clothes to go worship God. You could even see in the demeanor of those who would go that they were very often uncomfortable in how they 'looked' when sitting with a group of well dressed 'christians'. What really broke my heart was that after a few months of some of them coming to worship, and some even quite regular, that you began to hear the groundswell within the 'staid and proper' members that it was a disgrace to bring 'those people' to 'church'. The pastor friend that I was working with in this ministry was actually, at one point, asked to stop using the 'church' bus to bring them on the campus. He then went out and started his own fellowship that catered to anyone and retired as pastor of the 'poorest' church in Miami.

But in his fellowship he taught the truth and ministered to those in need with a large clothing closet and his wife worked tirelessly searching for jobs for anyone who wanted work for their hands. As for the fellowship that ran us out. Well, yes they grew into a fellowship with six or seven satellite campuses and got to the point where they were holding five worship services on the weekend at the main campus. They put in stadium seating and spent thousands and thousands of dollars putting in 'rock concert' lighting effects and a sound system that would blow your eardrums out if you weren't careful with the controls. I pray that God does bless them in the work that they do, but I fear that the purpose will ultimately be more about money than God. They have a regular take of several million dollars over the year, but they no longer have any food or clothing pantry or offer any particular help to the poor and needy.

I have, now later in my walk with the Lord, come to believe that bigger and bigger 'churches' isn't necessarily going to mean more and more people being born again. I honestly have very serious doubts that the very largest worldwide fellowship of the 'church' has very many people sitting in the seats who are actually born again. Perhaps I've just become cynical in my latter days, but my heart tells me that the difference in number of those who are 'christians' and those who are born again is becoming larger and larger with each new generation.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted