Refuting Calvin's TULIP

[Samson Reaper]

I will leave you to read and ponder Calvinist Spurgeons's sermon.

If you do not like it then tough. He wrote it, no me. Yes it is an indictment to the 'grammatical gunpowder' that Calvinist's use to pervert scripture.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

"All men,” say they, “that is, some of all sorts of men”—as if the Lord could not have said, “all sorts of men,” if He had meant that.

The Holy Spirit, by the apostle, has written “all men” and unquestionably He means all men.

All men is Jews and Gentiles


The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:14

"Terrible as the truth is, yet is it certain from Holy Writ that there are men who, in consequence of their sin and their rejection of the Savior, will go away into everlasting punishment "

Whose sin ? If you claim God predestined this then it is not their sin!

God is merciful by saving one person, he is completely just by casting ALL MEN to hell

 

[Samson Reaper]

but considers them foolishness,

How can a dead man consider anything ? Calvinism is wrong. It contradicts itself.

 

[Samson Reaper]

All men is Jews and Gentiles

NO

Read what Spurgeon actually writes. Please.

 

[Samson Reaper]

"God is merciful by saving one person, he is completely just by casting ALL MEN to hell"

Another strawman as non Calvinism does not argue what God can/cannot do.

But Calvinism goes several steps in the wrong direction in claiming that God predestines some men to believe they are saved but find out they are not. Seed on rocky ground sermon.

The is a devastating opposite message to the whole Bible.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

How can a dead man consider anything ? Calvinism is wrong. It contradicts itself.

Yes thank you, they cant!

God has to FIRST start the initial work in the individual to give them a heart of flesh, then he gives them the faith to believe, then we are saved, Praise God for his salvation

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

"God is merciful by saving one person, he is completely just by casting ALL MEN to hell"

Another strawman as non Calvinism does not argue what God can/cannot do.

But Calvinism goes several steps in the wrong direction in claiming that God predestines some men to believe they are saved but find out they are not. Seed on rocky ground sermon.

The is a devastating opposite message to the whole Bible.

Let us exposit the parallel together shall we

 

[Samson Reaper]

Yes thank you, they cant!

No, thank you for admitting the dead man Calvinist sound byte is wrong. As in they are not so dead that they cannot consider anything.

God has to FIRST start the initial work in the individual to give them a heart of flesh,

Flesh ?
Anyway. No non Calvinist denies that God has to start all things.

Please read the sermon as you promised you would do.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

No, thank you for admitting the dead man Calvinist sound byte is wrong. As in they are not so dead that they cannot consider anything.


Flesh ?
Anyway. No non Calvinist denies that God has to start all things.

Please read the sermon as you promised you would do.

Of course I will read the sermon, I am excited to do so.

The DEAD unregenerated natrual man, CANNOT come to God, he is DEAD/SLAVE to sin, therefore God first does the work by giving him a heart of FLESH, and faith, at which point they become alive and believe and get the Holy Spirit!

Flesh, Yes brother, even thought you were saved, you were once dead in your sins, and a slave to sin, try to remember prior to your conversion, if it was anything like mine, you were leading a life for yourself, then bam, something happened and you suddenly make a big change in your life and get saved, that is the Lord, Salvation if from the Lord

 

[Samson Reaper]

The DEAD unregenerated natrual man, CANNOT come to God, he is DEAD/SLAVE to sin, therefore God first does the work

I don't think anyone, Calvinist or non calvinist, would argue that it is not God that initiates things ( though there seem to be several posts where the Calvinist claims his opponents think this.)

The problem with the Calvinist dead man routine is ,quote " how can a dead body do any thing....". As we have seen in previous posts, this is a nonsense argument as the Calvinist claims the dead body CAN actually do some thing. Just look back 5 or 6 posts and the contradiction is on show.

...try to remember prior to your conversion, if it was anything like mine, you were leading a life for yourself, then bam, something happened and you suddenly make a big change in your life and get saved,

Mine is boring. I was a young lad and on hearing the end of the song "There is a Greenhill, far far away.... he died to save us all." I felt an overwhelming comfort and relief and believed. And walked in the faith for a long time before a Calvinist told me I might be seed thrown on rocky ground and could not be sure of what God has predestined for my future. Thanks a lot (not).

.. that is the Lord, Salvation if from the Lord

Yep. No non Calvinist says otherwise.

 

[Thursday]

If as you are saying everyone would get this grace, then everyone would be a believer with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but we know this isn't true.

God's grace is not given to every individual, because the grace given results in saving grace.

Absolutely false. God's grace has appeared to all men. Jesus is drawing all men to himself. Just because we are the beneficiaries of God's grace in no way means that we will follow God's will.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Tim 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Acts 17:30
Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all men everywhere to repent.

Heb 6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallenc away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Absolutely false. God's grace has appeared to all men. Jesus is drawing all men to himself. Just because we are the beneficiaries of God's grace in no way means that we will follow God's will.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Tim 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Acts 17:30
Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all men everywhere to repent.

Heb 6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallenc away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

Thank you for posting scripture for your response.

All men means salvation is to all peoples, Jews and Gentile alike.

You still haven't explain how a person without the spirit can come to Christ?

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:14

See, if God opens the heart, gives them a heart of flesh, he already initiated the works of salvation, IF this doesn't occur someone CANNOT come to him without the Spirit!

The verse clearly shows, natural man cannot come to Christ, without God's work

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

I don't think anyone, Calvinist or non calvinist, would argue that it is not God that initiates things ( though there seem to be several posts where the Calvinist claims his opponents think this.)

The problem with the Calvinist dead man routine is ,quote " how can a dead body do any thing....". As we have seen in previous posts, this is a nonsense argument as the Calvinist claims the dead body CAN actually do some thing. Just look back 5 or 6 posts and the contradiction is on show.


Mine is boring. I was a young lad and on hearing the end of the song "There is a Greenhill, far far away.... he died to save us all." I felt an overwhelming comfort and relief and believed. And walked in the faith for a long time before a Calvinist told me I might be seed thrown on rocky ground and could not be sure of what God has predestined for my future. Thanks a lot (not).


Yep. No non Calvinist says otherwise.

Let's address these 2-3 things you brought up,
a) We believe, pursuant to scripture, that the natural man has a heart of stone, that cannot see or hear God, because he is dead in his sins, and a slave to sin, and does not have the spirit,
b) Therefore, the Lord opens the heart, gives him eyes to see, ears to hear, a heart of flesh, and the person is able to come to Christ, because the Lord gives him the faith (even faith is a gift)
c) See the dead man cannot do anything, apart from the Lord, who opens eyes, opens ears, gives a new heart, and puts the spirit inside the believer.

Beautiful testimony, sorry to hear about the bad experience with a Calvinist, It can be difficult to view things balanced in light of theological views, I try to be balanced.

 

[Thursday]

Thank you for posting scripture for your response.

All men means salvation is to all peoples, Jews and Gentile alike.

You keep repeating this as if this means that God's grace is blocked for some people. That's not what the bible says, that's what your dogma requires it to day. Think about that.

 

[Thursday]

The verse clearly shows, natural man cannot come to Christ, without God's work

We've already been through this. That is my position and the position of the Catholic Church. Where we differ is that you deny all the scriptures that tell us that Jesus is drawing ALL men to himself, that God wants ALL men to be saved, that his grace has appeared to ALL men, and that ALL men will be judged for their actions on earth.

We can't do it alone, but praise Jesus, we don't have to! That doesn't mean we can ignore the teachings of Christ.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

You keep repeating this as if this means that God's grace is blocked for some people. That's not what the bible says, that's what your dogma requires it to day. Think about that.

Brother, it is scripture I quoted

 

[Thursday]

Brother, it is scripture I quoted

You quote irrelevant scripture and you know it. You deny the crystal clear words of the bible and twist other irrelevant scriptures to fit your man made dogma.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

We've already been through this. That is my position and the position of the Catholic Church. Where we differ is that you deny all the scriptures that tell us that Jesus is drawing ALL men to himself, that God wants ALL men to be saved, that his grace has appeared to ALL men, and that ALL men will be judged for their actions on earth.

We can't do it alone, but praise Jesus, we don't have to! That doesn't mean we can ignore the teachings of Christ.

You quote irrelevant scripture and you know it. You deny the crystal clear words of the bible and twist other irrelevant scriptures to fit your man made dogma.

But aren't we talking about election and salvation?

The verse I quoted, is regarding election and salvation.

 

[Samson Reaper]

Thank you for posting scripture for your response.

All men means salvation is to all peoples, Jews and Gentile alike.

Andy, you don't seem to listen to anybody; posters on CF, Spurgeons's Sermon 1516 or what the Bible actually says.


All men means all men.

 

[Samson Reaper]

1 Timothy 2:4
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should .