Reasons why Catholics lapse...

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Globalnomad

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http://www.acbc.catholic.org.au/bishops/confpres/20061201472.htm

I just read this article and I thought of OBOB. The general opinion here seems to be that the Catholic Church has been losing the faithful because it "lost its identity", watered down its teachings and committed liturgical abuses after Vatican 2. This article points to completely different reasons.
 

Da_Funkey_Gibbon

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Interesting, thanks.

Though, to be honest, it's not very surprising. Would you ever hear a lapsed Catholic say "Yes, I'm not going to mass until they sort those abuses out at my local parish, or "I'm refusing to go to mass until the Church accepts that all people who don't attend mass every week go straight to hell. " :p

I recon you're probably right, it's more because society has changed, not the church - but that said, I would have thought that people who took their faith seriously enough to be scandalized by Vatican II would have deconverted if anything, not just lapsed...
 
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a_ntv

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http://www.acbc.catholic.org.au/bishops/confpres/20061201472.htm

I just read this article and I thought of OBOB. The general opinion here seems to be that the Catholic Church has been losing the faithful because it "lost its identity", watered down its teachings and committed liturgical abuses after Vatican 2. This article points to completely different reasons.

The reasons pointed out are: a perceived irrelevance of the Church to modern life, the quality of homilies, inter-personal problems with a parish priest, problems with Church teachings or personal faith, and disillusionment in the wake of sexual scandals.

My personal idea is the people stop attending the Catholic Church because they do not pray everyday.

If you do not pray, you cannot love Him, and if you dont love Him, you will leave Him.

All above motivations are motivation of who doesnt pray.
The go to Church simply because it is duty, and first or later they will stop going.
Also the moral issues are in fact prayer issues: because it is only with the prayer that you understan the need of many difficoult moral attitudes.

But, IMO, the cause of this situation is of a certain part of our Church, that forget to teach the necessity to pray.
 
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Rhamiel

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I think it is the whole mindset of Catholicism, the there are catholics and there the there is everyone else, if you are methodist or lutheran and you get disillusioned with your church you become baptist or anglican or even catholic but if you are catholic and the not very secure in your faith and the idea of God is just so tied with that of The Church you become an aitheist, now if you are protestant and you are dissilusioned with your church and you move to a new town you might go back to your old denomination but if you are catholic it is still the same church in your mind even if the new parish might be more to your liking
 
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QuantaCura

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Those are very Protestant reasons articulated in the article--a Protestant service is centered on the sermon and the people are concerned with what they get out of it. Mass is all about the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ being offered to God for petition, adoration, reparation, and thanksgiving and it's about uniting ourselves to Him in Holy Communion when we give our whole beings to Him. It's not about what we get out of it, Mass is about what we give to God--Sacrifice, prayer, and self.

People don't go to Mass for one reason. They do not believe. If they truly believed Jesus Christ was present in the Eucharist only the most mailicious laziness or repulsion of God would keep them away. There's only two reasons why someone may not believe: they don't actually know what we believe (they have never been taught that we believe in the Real Presence) or they've simply abandoned the faith and gone the way of the world.

It is correct to say this issue is not new with Vatican II--it has been slowly growing for about 300 years. Rationalism and naturalism have permeated Western society with the growth of godless civil societies--this didn't happen because everyone was a good devout Catholic--it happened because very few people were. These societies which relegate religion to a matter of private opinion and which indoctrinate the youth to accept such pluralism as a virtue, have engendered a sense of individualism, personalized faith, and an overall me-centered approach to religion. Likewise, this naturalistic and rationalistic culture has destroyed the power of the sacred and has made true miracles, like transubstantiation, into some backward superstition from the dark ages. The Catholic Church's divinely instituted authority structure, inflexible teaching of religion, and embrace of the sacred, makes it diametrically opposed to the doctrines modern society embraces as virtues.

So how do we fix this? In my opinion, the overarching point of the Second Vatican Council was to give the Church a missionary spirit geared towards evangelizing modern man. Obviously, and for many, many reasons, little fruit has been born. The fact that it came during one of the most culturally turbulent periods in history didn't help much. Sadly, I think many in their desperation to address this issue have compromised or hidden some of the faith--which has failed to accomplish anything but alienate even more people. In my opinion, the best thing to do is just to uncompromsingly keep presenting the message of salvation in the fullness of truth and charity--some people will accept it, but most won't, and when people don't we just brush the dust off our sandals and entrust them to God's mercy (while still treating all with charity regardless of whether they accept the Gospel or not).
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Ah, yes, that could be the no.1 problem in some situations, inadequate teaching.

John Richard Neuhaus once told me the appaling statistic that some 72% of American Catholics aren't catechized or confirmed. :sigh:

Yet at the same time, since Catholics count their numbers by baptism (and not by church membership) and therefore have a great many falling away, I wonder how well the evangelicals and low church Protestants would fare in this respect if they counted their numbers by people raising their hands at the 'altar call' instead of by church membership. Seems like an unfair comparison.
 
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a_ntv

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People don't go to Mass for one reason. They do not believe. If they truly believed Jesus Christ was present in the Eucharist only the most mailicious laziness or repulsion of God would keep them away. There's only two reasons why someone may not believe: they don't actually know what we believe (they have never been taught that we believe in the Real Presence) or they've simply abandoned the faith and gone the way of the world....

You can leave your girl, not because you do not believe in her or you dont know her, but simply because you dont love her.

And you cannot love Jesus, with the same heart-love we are able with girls, if you do not stay with Him in the prayer.

That is the reason why Jesus went on to ask us to pray and pray and pray. Not to pray well, but to pray a lot.

But many times the messages we get in sermons are different: from a Bible/church doctrine, to moral issues or simply to call for feelings. Nor the need of the prayer.

But to be expert in Bible/church doctrine is usefull only if we want to became a teacher, moral issues by themself became only prohebitions, and feelings can easier be founded elsewhere...
 
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Caedmon

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I think one of the big reasons people are falling away is a loss of an appreciation for ceremony/meditation/magic in their lives. (They either fall away completely, or find something 'better' or 'intriguing' to fill that void, like non-Catholic Christianity, other religions, New Age, Buddhism, etc., and that's partially due to poor catechesis, like Dom Aelred Graham says in Zen Catholicism.) This is a reason that one of my highschool teachers expressed to me back when I was a kid (or am I still one?) and I agree with him. There's a loss of mysticism, loss of myth, loss of transcendental experience (not pantheistic; don't go bananas on me), etc. that is often pushed out by a technological, imperical mindset. If I can't sense it or turn it into something concrete, it's not worth it.

If you just toss out all the mysticism wrapped up in our human psychological heritage/programming, you're losing a part of yourself that helps you stay sane, in my opinion. This is why I don't get the whole "intelligent design"/"creationist" crowd. They try so hard to force an imperical frame onto a mythologically written text, that they're losing the point. Even if I could find physical evidence for a 6,000 year old Earth or a splinter from Noah's Ark, does that really help my faith? I don't think so.

Religion isn't about what I know, but what I believe. It's the belief that makes religion worth it, and the ceremonies, the mythology, the cosmology, the magic, the liturgy, etc., taken for what they are in and of themselves, is the way to go, in my opinion. How else can you accept transubstantiation? And like a_ntv was saying, I also think prayer is absolutely essential.
 
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Assisi

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Everything else in life is about you and what you are getting for your money/time. The most common reasons I hear are 'I don't get anything out of it' and 'the sermon isn't any good'. I think people lapse because they are used to thinking in terms of what they receive in the moment. Is it value? From a material standpoint, Mass is not value. We are not entertained, we are not paid, we are not getting anything out of it. Eternal life, the Body of Christ, and worshiping the Lord are not high up on the agenda of many.

We are also used to getting what we want quickly. Catholicism creates a problem here because we do not believe that salvation is easy. Accepting God's grace is hard and time consuming. It requires us to look at ourselves for what we really are and see our inadequacy. No one wants to do that!

From the position of the world, it's crazy to be Catholic. We will be poorer, have difficult lives, know truths about ourselves which we don't want to believe exist, and spend a lot of time on things which won't advance our wellbeing. It's just not attractive, and many are turning to the world, or at best to 'instant salvation' and 'prosperity gospel' churches.

PennyCatechism said:
Why did God make you?
God made me to know him, love him and serve him in this world, and to be happy with him forever in the next.

I agree with both a_ntv and QuantaCura. I think it isn't surprising that people who neither know God nor love God aren't all that keen on serving God, nor particularly worried about eternity. We need to pray for these people :crossrc:
 
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helenofbritain

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Everything else in life is about you and what you are getting for your money/time. The most common reasons I hear are 'I don't get anything out of it' and 'the sermon isn't any good'. I think people lapse because they are used to thinking in terms of what they receive in the moment. Is it value? From a material standpoint, Mass is not value. We are not entertained, we are not paid, we are not getting anything out of it. Eternal life, the Body of Christ, and worshiping the Lord are not high up on the agenda of many.

We are also used to getting what we want quickly. Catholicism creates a problem here because we do not believe that salvation is easy. Accepting God's grace is hard and time consuming. It requires us to look at ourselves for what we really are and see our inadequacy. No one wants to do that!

From the position of the world, it's crazy to be Catholic. We will be poorer, have difficult lives, know truths about ourselves which we don't want to believe exist, and spend a lot of time on things which won't advance our wellbeing. It's just not attractive, and many are turning to the world, or at best to 'instant salvation' and 'prosperity gospel' churches.



I agree with both a_ntv and QuantaCura. I think it isn't surprising that people who neither know God nor love God aren't all that keen on serving God, nor particularly worried about eternity. We need to pray for these people :crossrc:
What she said! All of it!!

Pray for the world - we all need it.
 
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Fantine

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I read an interesting book a year or two ago--"The Next Christendom" by theologian Philip Jenkins.

Fear of Islam is peaking, fueled by reports that the religion is burgeoning in numbers as well as militancy. Jenkins grants that Islam is indeed booming but marshals the evidence that today's largest religion, Christianity, will grow exponentially, too, and will remain the faith of the largest proportion of humanity. But the Christianity of 2050 will be very different from that molded by the 1,300 years during which Christianity was the faith of a rapidly developing Europe. The new Christianity will be liturgically anarchistic compared with the staid services of white, upper-middle-class people today. It will be overwhelmingly the faith of poor nonwhites living south of Europe, the U.S., and present-day Russia, and it won't reflect the values of the wealthy global north. It will revive Christianity's root emphases on healing and prophecy because its adherents will resemble the poor and oppressed who first embraced the redemption, the healing, and the blessing that Jesus promised.

http://www.amazon.com/Next-Christen...=pd_bbs_2/102-9097898-1484968?ie=UTF8&s=books

One reason why European and American Catholics are becoming lapsed is that what European and American Catholics think or need is absolutely irrelevant to today's Church. Maybe the Church should make some changes to become relevant in the post-modern era to post-modern man....

But they don't need to, because they have hordes of believers in the Third World who are untouched by technology, prosperity and modernism who are very traditional and unquestioning in their beliefs.

And so, basically, they've written us off. The Cardinals in the Third World will be calling all the shots in the future, the Third World will have most of the growth, and what we in the Northern Hemisphere need for our spiritual growth will be completely irrelevant to them.
 
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CrusaderKing

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I personally don't think the need for mysticism has diminished in the West. It's the relevance of the values taught by Catholicism that has diminished over time. Let's face it. We've been spoiled by convenience. In the mind of many, it's inconvenient to accept Catholicism because it runs contrary to common sense (hence why common sense is an oxymoron, but I digress). The appeal of moments of salvation in the human lifetime revolves around the idea of impatience. Patience is surely a virtue we could all use in the West and there's an incredible lack of it in the decadence of Western culture.

The Catholic faith should not conform to Western culture. Such conformity would diminish the mystery and truth of the faith. People leave the faith because it doesn't conform to them. On the contrary, we are called to conform to the ideal of Christ to the best of our ability in an effort to achieve sainthood. This means so much more than simply saying "I'm saved" and going about your business. The requirement is a holy life dedicated to the glory of God in your vocation, something I've only found in Catholicism.

But the loss of patience in Western culture has contributed much to its downfall into decadence and heresies (resurgent Gnosticism, Arianism and possibly even Nestorianism). Many have no patience for what Catholicism offers and even go as far as to say that it offers nothing (an erroneous claim) because they feel bored in Mass due to a lack of appreciation of the sacred mysteries. The mentality is "give it to me now" and many priests have even caved into this mindset by abusing the Novus Ordo, giving short vanilla homilies and not even bothering to teach about the real presence of the Lord in the Eucharist.

I realize it's difficult for many to accept Catholicism. The truth can be accepted by those who wish to make the journey despite hardship, despite betrayal and in the face of the secular world that wishes to make you feel bad for being a Christian.
 
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plmarquette

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Perhaps it is that we all have lost our " first love " .. as John writes in Revelation chapter 2 & 3 .

Perhaps we have too much rhetoric and not enough reality ... we lack the faith in what we do and believe to pull down the glory of God into our assembly , that we might once again see the Charisms manifest within the church ...

Perhaps we need to understand that we all are ministers of reconciliation ( Matthew 18.15-21 ) ; we all are ministers of comfort ( Matthew 25.32-42 ) ; we all are children of God ( Catholic , Protestant , & Jew .. all who believe in Jesus ) ; we all can contribute to the greater glory and will of God by finding points of unity and agreement ..

Perhaps we , as parents , need to speak less , and walk out our faith more , for our children do what we do , not what we say ..

Perhaps , we as Christians , ought to wake up , stand up , and oppose evil , as one body ...
 
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Da_Funkey_Gibbon

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I read an interesting book a year or two ago--"The Next Christendom" by theologian Philip Jenkins.



http://www.amazon.com/Next-Christen...=pd_bbs_2/102-9097898-1484968?ie=UTF8&s=books

One reason why European and American Catholics are becoming lapsed is that what European and American Catholics think or need is absolutely irrelevant to today's Church. Maybe the Church should make some changes to become relevant in the post-modern era to post-modern man....

But they don't need to, because they have hordes of believers in the Third World who are untouched by technology, prosperity and modernism who are very traditional and unquestioning in their beliefs.

And so, basically, they've written us off. The Cardinals in the Third World will be calling all the shots in the future, the Third World will have most of the growth, and what we in the Northern Hemisphere need for our spiritual growth will be completely irrelevant to them.
What changes do you suggest? Vatican II made changes, how far would you have gone?

Anglican have made loads of doctrinal changes to make themselves more "relevant" and their church attendance has shot down. (Check out that thread about Catholics in the UK. http://www.christianforums.com/t4325868-no-of-catholics-in-the-uk.html )

The postmodern world has walked away from the Church, not the other way around.

The Church had changes Vatican II, but the Church will never just go round changing Her doctrines just to get as many people in the pews as possible. Contrary to popular belief in some circles, She is NOT the whole of Babylon, to do that is completely contrary to her nature. There does need to be more Catholic evangelism, I give you that but there have been some initiatives in that regard, at all levels in the Church, though of course we can always do more.

And if you are defining post-modern man as men who adhere to post modern philosophy on life then your proposition becomes absurd...


I completely disagree that the Vatican has written us off, look at where the World Youth days have been held, out of the twelve, only two have been held outside the first world - It's always been my perspective that the first world is the Vatican's no. 1 priority, spiritually speaking.
 
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gentlestorm

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Those are very Protestant reasons articulated in the article--a Protestant service is centered on the sermon and the people are concerned with what they get out of it. Mass is all about the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ being offered to God for petition, adoration, reparation, and thanksgiving and it's about uniting ourselves to Him in Holy Communion when we give our whole beings to Him. It's not about what we get out of it, Mass is about what we give to God--Sacrifice, prayer, and self.
True enough. But it is also true that whether one likes it or not one does have to endure horribly shallow homilies, liturgical abuses and a host of other unavoidables.

People don't go to Mass for one reason. They do not believe. If they truly believed Jesus Christ was present in the Eucharist only the most mailicious laziness or repulsion of God would keep them away. There's only two reasons why someone may not believe: they don't actually know what we believe (they have never been taught that we believe in the Real Presence) or they've simply abandoned the faith and gone the way of the world.
There are more then 2 reasons my friend.
Maybe someone does understand what the church teaches and sees that it is not even understood by most clergy.
Maybe one disagrees and follows another interpretation of scripture- this is not going the way of the world.
Maybe one finds oneself seeing the church in a different way and needs to decide if it's worth it. Maybe.
It is correct to say this issue is not new with Vatican II--it has been slowly growing for about 300 years. Rationalism and naturalism have permeated Western society with the growth of godless civil societies--this didn't happen because everyone was a good devout Catholic--it happened because very few people were. These societies which relegate religion to a matter of private opinion and which indoctrinate the youth to accept such pluralism as a virtue, have engendered a sense of individualism, personalized faith, and an overall me-centered approach to religion. Likewise, this naturalistic and rationalistic culture has destroyed the power of the sacred and has made true miracles, like transubstantiation, into some backward superstition from the dark ages. The Catholic Church's divinely instituted authority structure, inflexible teaching of religion, and embrace of the sacred, makes it diametrically opposed to the doctrines modern society embraces as virtues.
Where do you think this Rationalism of western culture was born?
It is from the Catholic church. Luther is a product of the Catholic church. Scholasticism is Catholic through and through. THis is one of the noticable differences from the Eastern Church.
Nothing sacred can truly be destroyed, especially if it is lived. Fact is few live it. Could be a bad egg in the nest from the get-go that is proof.
You will know them by their fruit.
I think the fruit you speak of is in fact from the tree of Catholicism.
So how do we fix this? In my opinion, the overarching point of the Second Vatican Council was to give the Church a missionary spirit geared towards evangelizing modern man. Obviously, and for many, many reasons, little fruit has been born. The fact that it came during one of the most culturally turbulent periods in history didn't help much. Sadly, I think many in their desperation to address this issue have compromised or hidden some of the faith--which has failed to accomplish anything but alienate even more people. In my opinion, the best thing to do is just to uncompromsingly keep presenting the message of salvation in the fullness of truth and charity--some people will accept it, but most won't, and when people don't we just brush the dust off our sandals and entrust them to God's mercy (while still treating all with charity regardless of whether they accept the Gospel or not).
Vatican II had no right in giving a missionary spirit if we couldn't live it ourselves first.
What we ended up propagating is bad Catholicism.
Tree-fruit.
 
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