1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a friendly forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Rapture happens AFTER Mark of the Beast

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Alfred Persson, Feb 20, 2011.

  1. Alfred Persson

    Alfred Persson New Member Supporter

    Messages:
    1,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non-Denominational
    [FONT=&quot]The rapture happens after the antichrist and his mark appear, but before the bowl judgments of God:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]9[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write:`Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot] 17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe."[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs. (Rev 14:9-1 NKJ)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]30[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] (Mat 24:30-31 NKJ)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]16[/FONT][FONT=&quot] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1Th 4:16-17 NKJ)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]52[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] (1Co 15:52-55 NKJ)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT] The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are consecutive. At the opening of the Seventh Seal (Rev 8:1-2) , after the 1/2 hour of silence, the angels are given Trumpets:

    [FONT=&quot]1[/FONT][FONT=&quot] When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. (Rev 8:1-2 NKJ)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]At the last trump the first resurrection/rapture occurs, but this trump is not a short blast, it lasts for days, then at its end, the resurrection/rapture is seen as already accomplished in 15:2f:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]7[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets. (Rev 10:7 NKJ)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]...[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]1[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: "Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints![/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested."[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 5 After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 6 And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] (Rev 15:1-7 NKJ)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]An Outline of this:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Rev c. 6[/FONT]

    1st Seal (Antichrist)
    2nd Seal (War)
    3rd Seal (Famine)
    4th Seal (Death 1/4th of earth)
    5th Seal (Martyrdom)
    6th Seal (Heavenly & earthly disturbances)
    7th Seal (Trumpet Judgments)

    1st Trumpet (1/3 Earth smitten)
    2nd Trumpet (1/3 Sea smitten)
    3rd Trumpet (1/3 Rivers smitten)
    4th Trumpet (1/3 Sun, moon, stars darkened)
    5th Trumpet (Demons forced to torment their own followers in Babylon the Great by God's decree)
    6th Trumpet (God commands unwilling unholy myriads of demons slay their own followers)
    7th Trumpet (First Resurrection/Rapture; Bowl Judgments)

    1st Bowl (Sores on worshippers of the Beast)
    2nd Bowl (All Seas smitten)
    3rd Bowl (All Rivers smitten)
    4th Bowl (Sun scorches men)
    5th Bowl (Darkness on Beast's kingdom; painful sores)
    6th Bowl (Euphrates dried up to allow WWIII)
    7th Bowl (Hail; Judgment of Babylon the Great centered in Rome)



    This order contradicts a too literal exegesis, its a vision like Daniel's vision, where a horn can stand for a nation, John is not describing actual entities...he is using symbolism to reveal an aspect about them.

    The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are consecutive. At the opening of the Seventh Seal (Rev 8:1-2) , after the 1/2 hour of silence, the angels are given Trumpets:

    [FONT=&quot]1[/FONT][FONT=&quot] When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. (Rev 8:1-2 NKJ)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]At the last trump the first resurrection/rapture occurs, but this trump is not a short blast, it lasts for days, then at its end, the resurrection/rapture is seen as already accomplished in 15:2f:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]7[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets. (Rev 10:7 NKJ)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]...[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]1[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: "Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints![/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested."[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 5 After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 6 And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] (Rev 15:1-7 NKJ)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    This order contradicts a too literal exegesis, its a vision like Daniel's vision, where a horn can stand for a nation, John is not describing actual entities...he is using symbolism to reveal an aspect about them.

    So there is literal and symbolic mixed , during the seals 1/4th die literally, but the trumpets 1/3 because death then is spiritual but eternal, more literal during the bowls.

    [FONT=&quot]4[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb![/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" (Rev 6:14-17 NKJ)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]The sky isn't literally rolled up, the idea is sinners become aware their Judge is watching, that the evil they supposed was done in secret, as not. Hence their reaction in vv 15-17.[/FONT]


    For example, the 5th and 6th trumpet refer to the spiritistic "mystery of lawlessness" that convinces the unsaved to follow the Beast as God. These also torment them. Hence the Death is spiritual death that results in eternal death, eternal torment in the lake of Fire with the Satan and his angels. That is the meaning of these having breastplates of hell, all they consume are destroyed (spiritually) forever in eternal flame that cannot be quenched, weeping and gnashing of teeth.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2011
  2. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

    Messages:
    11,623
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non-Denominational
    and the wrath of God, that faithful believers are spared from,
    is poured out on those that have the mark of the beast.

    the time/times/half a time, is Satan's wrath, and is not the wrath that we are spared from.
     
  3. Choose Wisely

    Choose Wisely Forgiven

    Messages:
    2,181
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non-Denominational
    Well, you understand the first seal is the antichrist. That's a good thing.
     
  4. 4runner

    4runner Guest

    The rapture occur at the very end immediaely after the Tribulation at the post trib return of Christ.
     
  5. papaJP

    papaJP Prophet

    Messages:
    488
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Christian
    I cannot make some believe but this is not correct or Biblical.

    Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

    You will not have to endure the tribulations or the mark of the Beast.

    Are you going to dispute the Bible.
     
  6. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

    Messages:
    11,623
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non-Denominational
    hi PapaJP

    "we" believe the bible fine .....

    obviously "we" do not believe your interpretation of Rev3:10....or pre trib's general interpretation of Rev3:10.

    if you are open minded about finding ALL truth,
    then perhaps our words here in this thread may open another avenue of possibilities for you to consider.

    the gathering to Christ (rapture) is most assuredly post trib...
    and thinking that you leave the planet before the end time test,
    is completely against the point.
    inf act we do not leave the planet at all...


    the "rapture" is when the dead are raised.

    how does that fit into your pretrib theory?
     
  7. 4runner

    4runner Guest

    Actually it is you that dispute the Bible, not to mention Jesus' own prayers.

    John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
     
  8. Alfred Persson

    Alfred Persson New Member Supporter

    Messages:
    1,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non-Denominational
    You have misread it, it is precisely because they have patiently endured through the tribulation, that Jesus will remove them from the earth before the bowl judgments test all the inhabitants of the earth.


    11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
    12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.(Rev 14:11-12 NKJ)


    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
    14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
    (Rev 7:13-15 NKJ)

    Only the bowl judgments are poured out on the entire earth, the seals and trumpets to only a fraction, therefore the trial that tests the entire earth happens during the bowl judgments.

    This seems to be alluding to Dan 12:1

    45 "And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.
    NKJ Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
    2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. (Dan 11:45-3 NKJ)

    Notice that puts it during the final world war, just prior to the return of Christ.

    An analogy, just before God's wrath is unleashed upon the entire earth, THEN the those who endured are raptured:

    38 "For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
    39 "and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
    40 "Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
    41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
    42 "Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
    43 "But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.
    44 "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. (Mat 24:38-44 NKJ)

    Same also here, that are not removed from Sodom to avoid tribulation, the saved are kept from suffering by the hand of God, wrath meant for sinners:

    28 "Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
    29 "but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
    30 "Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. (Luk 17:28-30 NKJ)


    Jesus, our commander in chief, pulls out His assets, just before He attacks, lest they become collateral damage:

    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    (1Th 4:15-18 NKJ)


    Those who believe in a pretribulational rapture, are setting themselves up for a terrible spiritual fall...they won't understand why they weren't raptured...and when the UFO aliens claim God doesn't exist, its very likely they will fall for the strong delusion these preach.

    Its better to arm yourself with the truth, and prepare yourselves for the trials that are to come...steel yourselves, get ready to die for your faith...be prepared so you are still waiting when your LORD arrives...

    3 "Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,
    4 "but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. (Mat 25:3-4 NKJ)
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2011
  9. Choose Wisely

    Choose Wisely Forgiven

    Messages:
    2,181
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non-Denominational
    In a time you think not, the son of man cometh.

    Those who believe in a pretribulation rapture are watching for the coming of the son of man. They are the ones with oil in their lamps.

    Maybe, you should study up on the parable of the fig tree.
     
  10. NJBeliever

    NJBeliever Newbie

    Messages:
    1,323
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Christian
    Why is it that whenever a passage in Revelation is cited as "the rapture" we never see the raptured church anywhere in the verses??? Where are they?
     
  11. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

    Messages:
    11,623
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non-Denominational
    Rev5

    8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
    9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
    11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
    12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
    13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
    14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

    Rev14

    1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
    3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

    Rev17

    15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

    Rev18

    4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

    Rev19

    6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
    7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
    8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
    9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
     
  12. Alfred Persson

    Alfred Persson New Member Supporter

    Messages:
    1,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non-Denominational
    Unless you cite the precise scripture, with the exegesis allegedly proving your point, I have nothing to argue against.

    [FONT=&quot]At the outset, posttribulationists have a real problem here. If the Thessalonians had been taught posttribulationism, the beginning of the day of the Lord would have been to them evidence that the rapture was drawing near and should have caused rejoicing. Instead of this, the beginning of the day of the Lord apparently created a panic in their midst, with the implication that before the false teachers had come they had understood that they would not enter this period. Paul continued:[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Don’t let any one deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He opposes and exalts himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, and even sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? (vv. 3–5, NIV).-Walvoord, John; [/FONT] Vol. 134: Bibliotheca Sacra Volume 134. 1977 (534) (109). Dallas, TX: Dallas Theological Seminary.


    Prof Walvoord has misread the text, the rapture occurs during the "day of the Lord" at His coming (1 Thess 4:16-17) at the last *trumpet (1 Cor 15:52) after the Great Tribulation (Rev 14:14-16) but before the bowls of wrath (Rev 14:17-20; 15:1ff) were to be poured out upon the entire earth as a trial...they knew God would not punish them with the wicked, as a reward for their faithful perseverance during the Tribulation:

    [FONT=&quot]10[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev 3:10 NKJ)[/FONT]


    So the Thessalonians, believing the Great Tribulation has passed, are wondering why they weren't raptured. Paul corrects their misunderstanding, the Great Tribulation doesn't happen till AFTER the Antichrist comes on the scene and demands the church worship him, which hasn't happened yet.

    Compare:

    9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
    10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
    11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
    12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
    14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
    16 "They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;
    17 "for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
    (Rev 7:9-17 NKJ)

    Footnote * At the last trumpet

    Its no argument against this happening at the last trumpet, that the scene in Rev 7:9ff is listed before the Seventh Seal is opened, which seal contains the 7 trumpets (Rev 8:2)...because its telescoped to a later time, just as Rev 6:15-17 listed under the Sixth Seal is telescoped, happens during a later time. The vision is saying "this happens at the seal, and that results in this" with the latter sometimes occurring much later.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2011
  13. Alfred Persson

    Alfred Persson New Member Supporter

    Messages:
    1,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non-Denominational
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]So you argue the same as [/FONT][FONT=&quot] Snatched Before the Storm![/FONT][FONT=&quot]theVice President of the Master's College [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Richard L. Mayhue quotes Robert H. Gundry to claim:[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]"In Revelation 4-18, John does not mention the church once by that name or by any other term distinctive to the believers of the present age."-page 6.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]That is absurd, did Old Testament Jews proclaim they were redeemed by Jesus' blood? [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation" (Rev 5:9 NKJ)[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]After listing Twelve thousand from each of the Twelve tribes of Israel (144,000), another group of believers stand before throne. Does VP Mayhu believe these aren't Christians, the church? Of course not:[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]9[/FONT][FONT=&quot] After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" (Rev 7:9-10 NKJ)[/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]And they come out of the Great Tribulation:[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]14[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 7:14 NKJ)[/FONT]

    So we are seeing the Raptured NT Church in heaven, redeemed by the blood of the lamb.

    [FONT=&quot]The church overcomes by the blood of the lamb, this is not speaking about Old Testament Jews:[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]11[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. (Rev 12:11 NKJ)[/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]So both you and Vice President Mayhue argue a false dilemma as you first define the book of Revelation as being without chapters 1-4, and 19-22 and then conclude: "the church is not mentioned in the book of Revelation." [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]On the contrary, it is even in your truncated version.
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2011
  14. Alfred Persson

    Alfred Persson New Member Supporter

    Messages:
    1,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non-Denominational
    Another argument from silence VP Mayhue makes is:

    God's instructions to the Church through the epistles contain a variety of warnings, but never are believers warned to prepare for entering and enduring the Tribulation.

    They warn vigorously about coming error and false prophets (see Acts 20:29-30, 2 Peter 2:1, 1 John 4:1-3, Jude 4). They warn against ungodly living (see Eph. 4:25-5:7, 1 Thess. 4:3-8, Heb. 12:1). They even admonish believers to endure in the midst of present tribulation (see 1 Thess. 2:13-14, 2 Thess. 1:4, all of 1 Peter).

    It is incongruous then that the Scriptures would be silent on such a traumatic change for the Church. If posttribulationism were true, one would expect the epistles to teach the fact of the Church in the Tribulation, the purpose of the Church in the Tribulation, and the conduct of the Church in the Tribulation.- Mayhue, R. L. (2001). Snatched Before the Storm! A Case for Pretribulationism . The Woodlands, TX: Kress Christian Publications.


    VP Mayhue is twice wrong, while admitting arguments from silence are inconclusive, he makes them anyway, and second, the scripture certainly does teach how Christians are to conduct themselves when in tribulation:

    [FONT=&quot]10[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 11 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death."'
    (Rev 2:10-11 NKJ)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]As "Ten" in scripture (ten plagues; ten commandments; ten toes) is the number of completeness, "Tribulation ten days" doesn't omit the "Great Tribulation". [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]9[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 10 "And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 11 "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 12 "And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] (Mat 24:9-13 NKJ)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]6[/FONT][FONT=&quot] since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, (2Th 1:6 NKJ)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot][In other words:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]19[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 20 Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (Rom 12:19-1 NKJ)][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]14[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 16 "They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 17 "for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." (Rev 7:14-1 NKJ)[/FONT]
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2011
  15. Watchman_2

    Watchman_2 New Member

    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Christian
    The mark of the beast is the belief in rapture.
     
  16. Alfred Persson

    Alfred Persson New Member Supporter

    Messages:
    1,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Non-Denominational
    VP Mayhue's final argument from silence:

    The Rapture Is Rendered Inconsequential If It Is Posttribulational

    First, if God miraculously preserves the Church through the Tribulation, why have a rapture? If it is to avoid the wrath of God at Armageddon, why would not God continue to protect the saints on earth (as is postulated by posttribulationism) just as He protected Israel (see Exod. 8:22, 9:4, 9:26, 10:23, 11:7) from His wrath poured out upon Pharaoh and Egypt. Further, if the purpose of the rapture is for living saints to avoid Armageddon, why also resurrect the saints at the same time who are already immune?

    Secondly, if the rapture took place in connection with our Lord’s posttribulational coming, the subsequent separation of the sheep from the goats (see Matt. 25:31 and following) would be redundant. Separation would have taken place in the very act of translation.

    Thirdly, if all Tribulation believers are raptured and glorified just prior to the inauguration of the Millennial Kingdom, who then will populate and propagate the kingdom?

    The Scriptures indicate that the living unbelievers will be removed from the earth and judged at the end of the Tribulation (see Matt. 13:41–42, Matt. 25:41). Yet, they also teach that children will be born during the Millennium and that people will be capable of sin (see Isa. 65:20 and Rev. 20:7–10). Neither of these truths would be possible if all unbelievers had been judged and all believers had been glorified.
    -Mayhue, R. L. (2001). Snatched Before the Storm! A Case for Pretribulationism (10–11). The Woodlands, TX: Kress Christian Publications.


    THE FIRST is answered by VP Mayhue himself, "to avoid the wrath of God."
    1b)This time the wrath of God wouldn't be localized as it was in the past, the entire earth would be affected: [FONT=&quot]"Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth." (Rev 16:1 NKJ)[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]1c)The First Resurrection and Rapture occur simultaneously because its comforting to us, according to Paul:[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]13[/FONT][FONT=&quot] But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1Th 4:13-18 NKJ)[/FONT]

    Another reason is to get them ready to reign as kings and priests in Christ's millennial kingdom:
    [FONT=&quot]5[/FONT][FONT=&quot] But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] (Rev 20:5-6 NKJ)[/FONT]

    Secondly, if the rapture took place in connection with our Lord’s posttribulational coming, the subsequent separation of the sheep from the goats (see Matt. 25:31 and following) would be redundant. Separation would have taken place in the very act of translation.

    [FONT=&quot]If VP Mayhue's argument proves postrib rapture is redundant, it does the same for pretrib rapture, and that VP Mayhue would reject. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Just as is true of pretrib, there certainly will be folks saved after a posttrib rapture. Christ's wording implies this judgment will be a process that spans a considerable length of time, during His millennial Kingdom:[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]31[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (Mat 25:31-34 NKJ)[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Moreover some "prophetic telescoping" must be occurring as Judgment Day doesn't occur till AFTER the Thousand Years has ended:[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]7[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Now when the thousand years have expired...[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:6-15 NKJ)[/FONT]

    Likely the separation of the sheep and the goats is a 1000 year process, during His millennial kingdom, nothing in Christ said in Matthew rules that out.

    Hence there is no redundancy, Judgment day is more complicated than VP Mayhue's argument supposed.

    Thirdly, if all Tribulation believers are raptured and glorified just prior to the inauguration of the Millennial Kingdom, who then will populate and propagate the kingdom?

    The unsaved, billions will survive the coming of Christ:

    [FONT=&quot]17[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] (Isa 65:17-25 NKJ)[/FONT]


    To separate the sheep and the goats among those who survived the coming of Christ is clearly one of the reasons for the existence of a millennial kingdom.

    The Scriptures indicate that the living unbelievers will be removed from the earth and judged at the end of the Tribulation (see Matt. 13:41–42, Matt. 25:41). Yet, they also teach that children will be born during the Millennium and that people will be capable of sin (see Isa. 65:20 and Rev. 20:7–10). Neither of these truths would be possible if all unbelievers had been judged and all believers had been glorified.

    False dilemma, the rapture doesn't judge all believers, only those ready at the time of Christ's coming. More appear during the Millennial kingdom of Christ, as VP Mayhue must know as he says "children will be born during the Millennium."
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2011
  17. Partaker of Christ

    Partaker of Christ Newbie

    Messages:
    355
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Christian
    Hi papaJP!

    It is a good verse, but what is this 'hour of trial'?

    I don't think it is the 'great tribulation', because that is the tribulation of the saints. Tribulation will not separate us from the love of God.

    My thoughts are that it could well be the wrath of God, because it is upon "the whole world" to test the "inhabitants of the earth"
     
  18. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy

    Messages:
    4,238
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Protestant
    Oh they are back in chapter 7 around the throne of God.:thumbsup:
     
  19. 4runner

    4runner Guest

    According to Jesus it isthe pretribbers themselves that will b taken off guard

    Matthew 24
    48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
    49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
    50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    If Jesus could come back any second without any sign, what exactly are you watching for?

    I think it is you who should study up. You obviously have no idea what Jesus meant when He said learn the parable ofthe fig tree, even thoug it is clearly explain in the very next verse.

    Matthew 24
    32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
     
  20. LovedofHim

    LovedofHim New Member

    Messages:
    1,488
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Christian
    The "raptured" church is standing in heaven in Revelation 7 and in Revelation 12 because it is the same moment in time.

    In Revelation 13, the antichrist is seen blaspheming the "raptured" church who is dwelling in heaven when he begins his 42 months of power.

    Open your eyes and LOOK:

    Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.
    Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

    Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.




    The 1st seal rider is not the cast-down devil. The devil is cast down at the 5th/6th seal when the church is caught up. He empowers the antichrist during the 7th seal.