Rapid Emergence

Resha Caner

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To begin, I realize this is long, and I realize those who read probably can't take it all in at once, but I wanted to get it out there. For those who are interested, as the discussion proceeds, I may reference back to this original post when appropriate.

Those of you who have conversed with me know of my interest in alternative hypotheses to evolution. I realize few (if any) agree with me, but I'm convinced every phenomena has multiple reasonable explanations. Given no scientific theory claims 100% perfection, I also think it can be very difficult to choose the "best" theory. For those theories that have been studied in depth, the weight of the evidence can definitely sway the decision one way or another. The weight of evidence can also become a burden, however, when it is used to refute hypotheses that have not been given adequate consideration.

My expertise is Newtonian mechanics, not evolution, and I have put these beliefs into practice within my own discipline. At one point when I encountered a very difficult engineering problem, I developed an alternative theory of mechanics on the side that solved the problem. I was not successful in publishing my alternative, as the criticism I received multiple times was that it was not parsimonious ... and in the end I had to agree with that assessment. My approach essentially postulated that the mechanics of every system is different and would require a different first principle. Searching for the best first principle for each and every system is a bit daunting, and in the end it's just easier to approximate everything as Newtonian.

I mention that to emphasize my instrumentalist view of science. I have no problem with using evolutionary theory as a model for improving our medical capabilities, etc. I understand it works well. It's the philosophical and theological implications that bug me. Even then, I would never say those who accept evolution can't enter heaven. As such, searching for an alternative hypothesis begs the question: Why bother? Indeed, I think I've reached that point myself, hence this post. The manner in which the scientific endeavor has been framed requires an answer that does not necessitate God. Therefore, for someone to develop a successful alternative theory, the alternative must also be in a form that doesn't necessitate God. Aside from the possible shock value, then, I'm not sure an alternative to evolution would accomplish anything.

Still, in times past, I thought one challenge to creation was reasonable. That challenge was: Yes, the theory of evolution is not 100% perfect, and yes it is possible there are alternatives. But until an alternative presents itself, it simply will not work to focus solely on criticizing evolution. I also understand why biologists do not accept Intelligent Design as a feasible alternative. I still think it's a cool idea, but it has some significant problems that will always prevent its acceptance.

To that end, I thought I would share some of what I have done. I believe I have taken my informal study as far as I can. I did make the attempt to put together a paper for publication, but the feedback I received from various journals was that my attempt was not innovative and significant enough. I find that ironic as that is exactly what I was going for. Given I have no formal training in biology (beyond a few classes in school), I really doubt I would be successful at making some big, splashy claim that my findings completely overturn the entire field of evolution. Rather, I had chosen one simple aspect as a starting point: the self-assembly of nested hierarchies. In fact, I don't think any creationist will ever be successful given the massive scope most attempt. First because it's too much to take on, and second because (as I've long said) I don't think it's the specific mechanisms that are false, but rather the overarching claims extrapolated from those specific mechanisms.

So, yes, I accept populations change over time and I think those changes can be inherited. I accept DNA is the vessel that sustains that information and that mutations in DNA can be transmitted to future generations. I accept natural selection places pressure on those mutations such that some carry on while others die out - and that the mutations are random with respect to selection pressure. I even accept the strong similarities in DNA between humans and other primates and think it is possible they came from the same source.

This is the point where many will respond with: Huh? Then what do you disagree with?

My objection is to universal common descent - the idea that all life descended from a single population of simple organisms. My position would be that life tries to maintain a stable system and change has limits. So, there is a sense in which life fights against selection pressure. Populations try to produce a succeeding generation that is exactly like the previous generation, and change only happens over the objection of older generations. I apologize if that personifies the process too much, but it is the easiest way for me to present my view. The result is I would say the extremes of variety we see in life did not come from a single biogenesis event, but from multiple events. Even within those events I don't think the diversity emerged in series, but in parallel.

So, for example, I'm 99.999% certain dogs evolved from some canid predecessor like a wolf. But I'm only 90% certain that wolves, jackals, coyotes, and foxes all came from the same canid predecessor. I think it is possible that maybe the wolf and the fox emerged from the same "pool" - the same biogenesis event - but formed separate populations from the beginning. Then, I'm only 50% certain all Carnivora came from a common predecessor, and think it just as likely that lions, bears, and wolves are separate lines from the same pool. And on it goes, such that I would think it more likely crocodiles came from a different biogenesis event than wolves.

Why all the similarity then? Physics. The same chemical processes under the same conditions produced the same biological structure, and those same biological structures produce similarity in the emerging life forms. I realize bioligists can synthetically produce other building blocks, but the simple fact is those building blocks were available during biogenesis and they didn't produce life because the conditions weren't right.

That leads to one of the first paradigm shifts I had while thinking about this. The physical processes of the universe are not "inventing" life. Even if evolution is 100% perfect and my alternative is completely wrong, the universe is not inventing life. So, it's not as if fish had to figure out how to make legs and lungs so they could crawl up on the land. It didn't have to happen in that order (if it ever did at all). The DNA sequence that successfully produces legs and lungs was already set at the Big Bang ... and even before. Though I'm sure it's a large number, the number of combinations and permutations of G, C, A, and T that will produce a viable organism was set from the beginning. As such, had the conditions been different, the wolf might have come before the fish. The wolf doesn't need the fish. All it needs is the proper vessel for producing a string of DNA.

I referred to that vessel earlier as a "pool". I don't know exactly how far down the chain one could chase it. The wolf doesn't need the fish, the fish doesn't need the plankton, the plankton doesn't need the algae, etc. But at some point the answer changes to: Yes, it does need that. In my mental model I think of that bottom level pool as viruses and bacteria. Viruses and bacteria are near to being a massive random number generator - trying out all the possible DNA combinations (and able to sustain themselves and reproduce as they do it) until they hit upon a sequence that causes life to emerge. Even so, these pools of viruses and bacteria have biases. The things they try are not actually random - just random wrt natural selection. As such, the sequences they try tend to be very near to the sequences that already exist. Further, the life that emerges first tends to be the winner. It tends to kill (by various means) all its competitors. In other words, a given pool would tend to produce only specific varieties of life.

Alright. So far this has just been a lot of talking. What did I actually do to try out this idea? I used what is called the Abstract Tile Assembly Model (aTAM). Then I built up the idea in 3 broad steps - all of which were verified with mathematical models.

Step 1: aTAM requires defining tile types and assembly rules, and then studying what structures emerge from randomly stirring a set of tiles. In addition, I created a very simple definition of complexity - a definition only meant for the specifics of my tile set. It's not a definition I expect to be adopted by everyone. What I showed was that in order to create successively complex structures, additional rules had to be added. Yet, as more rules were added, the probability of the more complex structures dropped rapidly. For my tile set it took on a nearly asymptotic profile, suggesting their was a limit to what complexity could be achieved.

Step 2: I showed how the limitation in step 1 could be overcome. I developed a definition of an "emergent" property. I combined this with a mathematical model of evolution I had found in the scientific literature, and showed how this evolutionary model combined with emergent properties produced a nested hierarchy of tile structures with higher and higher complexities.

Step 3: I then showed how, by changing the conditions, the highly complex tile structures developed in different ways. Under one set of conditions it was more likely that simple structures would slowly evolve up through the levels of the nested hierarchy one at a time. Simpler structures evolved into more complex structures. However, under a different set of conditions, the highly complex structures emerged directly from the pool of simple structures. The highly complex structures skipped the intervening steps and went straight from simple to the highest level of the nested hierarchy.

I think that shows a lot of potential for my alternative idea, but as I said I don't think I have the ability to develop it any further from just an informal ad-hoc approach. And I've been told what I have so far doesn't meet the standards necessary to publish. So, there it is.
 
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Resha Caner

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Have you considered peer review? Just to point out one significant problem: completely novel genetic sequences are commonly observed to arise. The idea that it was all there at the start seems rather extravagant in the face of that.

First, I'm not suggesting that all sequences existed in physical form. I'm saying that all sequences which would produce a living organism were determined from the start. It's not as if the sequence that produces a wolf today wouldn't have produced a wolf in eons past. That wolf may have died very quickly due to an incompatible environment (i.e. it would have been selected out), but the same sequence that produces a wolf today would produce a wolf for all times past, present, and future.

With regard to peer review, I'm not sure what you're suggesting. The journals I've tried said no. I don't know if you're suggesting anything beyond that, but I'm basically saying I don't see the point of trying any further. This post is me putting the idea on the shelf.
 
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Why all the similarity then? Physics. The same chemical processes under the same conditions produced the same biological structure, and those same biological structures produce similarity in the emerging life forms.

Are you talking about abiogenesis or evolution? The first step would be showing how something like the Kreb cycle is an unavoidable consequence of Earth's pre-biotic conditions.

I realize bioligists can synthetically produce other building blocks, but the simple fact is those building blocks were available during biogenesis and they didn't produce life because the conditions weren't right.

You are saying that life emerged several times, so that would mean that conditions would be different each time life emerged. So why wouldn't they use different chemistry? It should be something akin to the planets where each one formed in slightly different conditions so each is different.
The DNA sequence that successfully produces legs and lungs was already set at the Big Bang ... and even before.

Really? This seems like a good enough place to start.

What would be interesting is if you could compare the DNA of mudskippers, zebrafish, lungfish, salamanders, and beetles. Some have lungs. Some of legs. Some have both legs and lungs. Some have neither. If you were to compare their DNA, what would you expect to see, and why?

Viruses and bacteria are near to being a massive random number generator - trying out all the possible DNA combinations (and able to sustain themselves and reproduce as they do it) until they hit upon a sequence that causes life to emerge.

Bacteria are life.

Even so, these pools of viruses and bacteria have biases. The things they try are not actually random - just random wrt natural selection. As such, the sequences they try tend to be very near to the sequences that already exist. Further, the life that emerges first tends to be the winner. It tends to kill (by various means) all its competitors. In other words, a given pool would tend to produce only specific varieties of life.

Also, this process is iterative, so early random changes can limit the end results.

A good analogy that I came up with uses playing cards, poker hands, and is pretty simple. You shuffle the cards and draw 5 cards. You then draw one card at a time. If the card improves your hand you keep it and discard, shuffling the discards if you still need more cards. Keep doing this until you either get to 4 of a kind or a royal flush. What you will find is that the early draws tend to push you towards 4 of a kind or a straight flush. You will also find that which ranked for your 4 of a kind or which suit your royal flush is in is determined by the first few random draws. All of this is unguided, and yet you end up with different and highly optimized results.

I think that shows a lot of potential for my alternative idea, but as I said I don't think I have the ability to develop it any further from just an informal ad-hoc approach. And I've been told what I have so far doesn't meet the standards necessary to publish. So, there it is.

At the moment, all you have is some assertions you find compelling. The first hurdle you need to get over is establishing that you would get the same metabolic and genetic systems from the same starting conditions in the Big Bang.
 
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To begin, I realize this is long, and I realize those who read probably can't take it all in at once, but I wanted to get it out there. For those who are interested, as the discussion proceeds, I may reference back to this original post when appropriate.

Those of you who have conversed with me know of my interest in alternative hypotheses to evolution. I realize few (if any) agree with me, but I'm convinced every phenomena has multiple reasonable explanations. Given no scientific theory claims 100% perfection, I also think it can be very difficult to choose the "best" theory. For those theories that have been studied in depth, the weight of the evidence can definitely sway the decision one way or another. The weight of evidence can also become a burden, however, when it is used to refute hypotheses that have not been given adequate consideration.

My expertise is Newtonian mechanics, not evolution, and I have put these beliefs into practice within my own discipline. At one point when I encountered a very difficult engineering problem, I developed an alternative theory of mechanics on the side that solved the problem. I was not successful in publishing my alternative, as the criticism I received multiple times was that it was not parsimonious ... and in the end I had to agree with that assessment. My approach essentially postulated that the mechanics of every system is different and would require a different first principle. Searching for the best first principle for each and every system is a bit daunting, and in the end it's just easier to approximate everything as Newtonian.

I mention that to emphasize my instrumentalist view of science. I have no problem with using evolutionary theory as a model for improving our medical capabilities, etc. I understand it works well. It's the philosophical and theological implications that bug me. Even then, I would never say those who accept evolution can't enter heaven. As such, searching for an alternative hypothesis begs the question: Why bother? Indeed, I think I've reached that point myself, hence this post. The manner in which the scientific endeavor has been framed requires an answer that does not necessitate God. Therefore, for someone to develop a successful alternative theory, the alternative must also be in a form that doesn't necessitate God. Aside from the possible shock value, then, I'm not sure an alternative to evolution would accomplish anything.

Still, in times past, I thought one challenge to creation was reasonable. That challenge was: Yes, the theory of evolution is not 100% perfect, and yes it is possible there are alternatives. But until an alternative presents itself, it simply will not work to focus solely on criticizing evolution. I also understand why biologists do not accept Intelligent Design as a feasible alternative. I still think it's a cool idea, but it has some significant problems that will always prevent its acceptance.

To that end, I thought I would share some of what I have done. I believe I have taken my informal study as far as I can. I did make the attempt to put together a paper for publication, but the feedback I received from various journals was that my attempt was not innovative and significant enough. I find that ironic as that is exactly what I was going for. Given I have no formal training in biology (beyond a few classes in school), I really doubt I would be successful at making some big, splashy claim that my findings completely overturn the entire field of evolution. Rather, I had chosen one simple aspect as a starting point: the self-assembly of nested hierarchies. In fact, I don't think any creationist will ever be successful given the massive scope most attempt. First because it's too much to take on, and second because (as I've long said) I don't think it's the specific mechanisms that are false, but rather the overarching claims extrapolated from those specific mechanisms.

So, yes, I accept populations change over time and I think those changes can be inherited. I accept DNA is the vessel that sustains that information and that mutations in DNA can be transmitted to future generations. I accept natural selection places pressure on those mutations such that some carry on while others die out - and that the mutations are random with respect to selection pressure. I even accept the strong similarities in DNA between humans and other primates and think it is possible they came from the same source.

This is the point where many will respond with: Huh? Then what do you disagree with?

My objection is to universal common descent - the idea that all life descended from a single population of simple organisms. My position would be that life tries to maintain a stable system and change has limits. So, there is a sense in which life fights against selection pressure. Populations try to produce a succeeding generation that is exactly like the previous generation, and change only happens over the objection of older generations. I apologize if that personifies the process too much, but it is the easiest way for me to present my view. The result is I would say the extremes of variety we see in life did not come from a single biogenesis event, but from multiple events. Even within those events I don't think the diversity emerged in series, but in parallel.

So, for example, I'm 99.999% certain dogs evolved from some canid predecessor like a wolf. But I'm only 90% certain that wolves, jackals, coyotes, and foxes all came from the same canid predecessor. I think it is possible that maybe the wolf and the fox emerged from the same "pool" - the same biogenesis event - but formed separate populations from the beginning. Then, I'm only 50% certain all Carnivora came from a common predecessor, and think it just as likely that lions, bears, and wolves are separate lines from the same pool. And on it goes, such that I would think it more likely crocodiles came from a different biogenesis event than wolves.

Why all the similarity then? Physics. The same chemical processes under the same conditions produced the same biological structure, and those same biological structures produce similarity in the emerging life forms. I realize bioligists can synthetically produce other building blocks, but the simple fact is those building blocks were available during biogenesis and they didn't produce life because the conditions weren't right.

That leads to one of the first paradigm shifts I had while thinking about this. The physical processes of the universe are not "inventing" life. Even if evolution is 100% perfect and my alternative is completely wrong, the universe is not inventing life. So, it's not as if fish had to figure out how to make legs and lungs so they could crawl up on the land. It didn't have to happen in that order (if it ever did at all). The DNA sequence that successfully produces legs and lungs was already set at the Big Bang ... and even before. Though I'm sure it's a large number, the number of combinations and permutations of G, C, A, and T that will produce a viable organism was set from the beginning. As such, had the conditions been different, the wolf might have come before the fish. The wolf doesn't need the fish. All it needs is the proper vessel for producing a string of DNA.

I referred to that vessel earlier as a "pool". I don't know exactly how far down the chain one could chase it. The wolf doesn't need the fish, the fish doesn't need the plankton, the plankton doesn't need the algae, etc. But at some point the answer changes to: Yes, it does need that. In my mental model I think of that bottom level pool as viruses and bacteria. Viruses and bacteria are near to being a massive random number generator - trying out all the possible DNA combinations (and able to sustain themselves and reproduce as they do it) until they hit upon a sequence that causes life to emerge. Even so, these pools of viruses and bacteria have biases. The things they try are not actually random - just random wrt natural selection. As such, the sequences they try tend to be very near to the sequences that already exist. Further, the life that emerges first tends to be the winner. It tends to kill (by various means) all its competitors. In other words, a given pool would tend to produce only specific varieties of life.

Alright. So far this has just been a lot of talking. What did I actually do to try out this idea? I used what is called the Abstract Tile Assembly Model (aTAM). Then I built up the idea in 3 broad steps - all of which were verified with mathematical models.

Step 1: aTAM requires defining tile types and assembly rules, and then studying what structures emerge from randomly stirring a set of tiles. In addition, I created a very simple definition of complexity - a definition only meant for the specifics of my tile set. It's not a definition I expect to be adopted by everyone. What I showed was that in order to create successively complex structures, additional rules had to be added. Yet, as more rules were added, the probability of the more complex structures dropped rapidly. For my tile set it took on a nearly asymptotic profile, suggesting their was a limit to what complexity could be achieved.

Step 2: I showed how the limitation in step 1 could be overcome. I developed a definition of an "emergent" property. I combined this with a mathematical model of evolution I had found in the scientific literature, and showed how this evolutionary model combined with emergent properties produced a nested hierarchy of tile structures with higher and higher complexities.

Step 3: I then showed how, by changing the conditions, the highly complex tile structures developed in different ways. Under one set of conditions it was more likely that simple structures would slowly evolve up through the levels of the nested hierarchy one at a time. Simpler structures evolved into more complex structures. However, under a different set of conditions, the highly complex structures emerged directly from the pool of simple structures. The highly complex structures skipped the intervening steps and went straight from simple to the highest level of the nested hierarchy.

I think that shows a lot of potential for my alternative idea, but as I said I don't think I have the ability to develop it any further from just an informal ad-hoc approach. And I've been told what I have so far doesn't meet the standards necessary to publish. So, there it is.

You seem to take parts of a theory out of context. Science doesn't set up strawmen.

Where did you get your physics degree? Is it a masters level?
 
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Resha Caner

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I didn't get details. The responses were basically form letters.

What would be interesting is if you could compare the DNA of mudskippers, zebrafish, lungfish, salamanders, and beetles. Some have lungs. Some of legs. Some have both legs and lungs. Some have neither. If you were to compare their DNA, what would you expect to see, and why?

Maybe it would be interesting, but it's beyond my reach. As I said, my intent was to start small and look at things I felt fit my skills. What you suggest was not within the scope of what I undertook.

At the moment, all you have is some assertions you find compelling.

With respect to most of what I wrote in the OP, this is true. I even said so:
So far this has just been a lot of talking. What did I actually do to try out this idea?

So, I acknowledge having written a very long preamble. I take it you didn't find it helpful in setting the stage. Regardless, the only parts for which I can provide models, data, results, etc. are the 3 steps I mentioned.

You seem to take parts of a theory out of context. Science doesn't set up strawmen.

What parts did I take out of context? And what strawman?

Where did you get your physics degree? Is it a masters level?

I didn't say I have a physics degree. I have a master's in mechanical engineering plus the attendant 25 years of practice. What is your background?
 
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I didn't get details. The responses were basically form letters.



Maybe it would be interesting, but it's beyond my reach. As I said, my intent was to start small and look at things I felt fit my skills. What you suggest was not within the scope of what I undertook.



With respect to most of what I wrote in the OP, this is true. I even said so:


So, I acknowledge having written a very long preamble. I take it you didn't find it helpful in setting the stage. Regardless, the only parts for which I can provide models, data, results, etc. are the 3 steps I mentioned.



What parts did I take out of context? And what strawman?



I didn't say I have a physics degree. I have a master's in mechanical engineering plus the attendant 25 years of practice. What is your background?

Are you certain you set out to explore what matched your skills, or what you would really like to believe?
 
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OliviaMay

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I didn't get details. The responses were basically form letters.



Maybe it would be interesting, but it's beyond my reach. As I said, my intent was to start small and look at things I felt fit my skills. What you suggest was not within the scope of what I undertook.



With respect to most of what I wrote in the OP, this is true. I even said so:


So, I acknowledge having written a very long preamble. I take it you didn't find it helpful in setting the stage. Regardless, the only parts for which I can provide models, data, results, etc. are the 3 steps I mentioned.



What parts did I take out of context? And what strawman?



I didn't say I have a physics degree. I have a master's in mechanical engineering plus the attendant 25 years of practice. What is your background?

Business and statistical analysis.

Essentially if you want to talk about biology let's, but your OP doesn't do that. I would love to have an intellectually honest conversation. To be frank you don't seem to. Why is biology wrong as a science? A long intro followed by a narrow and incomplete view of what a nested hierarchies mean isn't an honest discussion.
 
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Resha Caner

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Essentially if you want to talk about biology let's, but your OP doesn't do that. I would love to have an intellectually honest conversation. To be frank you don't seem to. Why is biology wrong as a science? A long intro followed by a narrow and incomplete view of what a nested hierarchies mean isn't an honest discussion.

I agree. One post is not a discussion. So are you willing to give me more than one post before you start making judgments?

Business and statistical analysis.

Cool. Then you know what a DOE is, yes?
 
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OliviaMay

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I agree. One post is not a discussion. So are you willing to give me more than one post before you start making judgments?



Cool. Then you know what a DOE is, yes?


I would think you could make a point in less than a novel. If you can't then there really wasn't one.

Yes I know what experiment design is.

Why is the scientific field of biology wrong? I really don't see how you are honestly trying to discuss that?
 
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Resha Caner

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I would think you could make a point in less than a novel. If you can't then there really wasn't one.

I won't force you to discuss with me if you think there is no point.

Why is the scientific field of biology wrong? I really don't see how you are honestly trying to discuss that?

Well, your question is loaded, but I'll answer anyway. Your question is too broad. I never said the "scientific field of biology" is wrong. Why would I discuss a claim I never made? I would think you understand why it's a bit irritating when people put words in your mouth.

Yes I know what experiment design is.

Good. That will help the discussion a lot. Do you know what aTAM is? It's actually quite simple, so I can briefly explain if you're not familiar with it.
 
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OliviaMay

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I won't force you to discuss with me if you think there is no point.



Well, your question is loaded, but I'll answer anyway. Your question is too broad. I never said the "scientific field of biology" is wrong. Why would I discuss a claim I never made? I would think you understand why it's a bit irritating when people put words in your mouth.



Good. That will help the discussion a lot. Do you know what aTAM is? It's actually quite simple, so I can briefly explain if you're not familiar with it.


Evolution is a fundamental principle in biology. So fundamental in fact that if evolution is wrong biology is an entirely debunked field. So to discuss evolution is to discuss biology. It is like saying I don't believe in the germ theory of modern medicine, but I don't think modern medicine is wrong. The dog just won't hunt as they say. We are talking about the field of biology. Let's discuss it.

As far as an experiments go are you designing one? What is your hypothesis?
 
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Evolution is a fundamental principle in biology. So fundamental in fact that if evolution is wrong biology is an entirely debunked field. So to discuss evolution is to discuss biology. It is like saying I don't believe in the germ theory of modern medicine, but I don't think modern medicine is wrong. The dog just won't hunt as they say. We are talking about the field of biology. Let's discuss it.

Uh huh. But fine, let's discuss. I'm of the opinion that the Mesopredator Release Hypothesis from ecology is not germane. Do you agree or do we need to include it in our discussion?

As far as an experiments go are you designing one? What is your hypothesis?

I've already designed, executed, and analyzed the results of mathematical models. Before I can go further I need to know if explaining aTAM is required. With respect to my hypothesis, are you asking about the hypothesis for step 1 or my higher level hypotheses? I ask because I tried to be clear the higher level ones are only speculation. There's not much to discuss.
 
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OliviaMay

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Uh huh. But fine, let's discuss. I'm of the opinion that the Mesopredator Release Hypothesis from ecology is not germane. Do you agree or do we need to include it in our discussion?



I've already designed, executed, and analyzed the results of mathematical models. Before I can go further I need to know if explaining aTAM is required. With respect to my hypothesis, are you asking about the hypothesis for step 1 or my higher level hypotheses? I ask because I tried to be clear the higher level ones are only speculation. There's not much to discuss.


You sure seem to like to impress with fancy talk. That isn't a good indicator of your intentions.

Mathematical models are not science. What program are you using to run said models?
 
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Resha Caner

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You sure seem to like to impress with fancy talk. That isn't a good indicator of your intentions.

Sigh. I would have respected you more had you just said you didn't know what aTAM is. Biology is not your field, nor is it mine. I would expect there are many terms neither of us know.

Mathematical models are not science.

Excuse me? A Biologist's Guide to Mathematical Modeling And that's just a start.

Indeed mathematical models must be correlated if they are going to make a material claim, but mathematics is most certainly part of science.
 
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OliviaMay

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Sigh. I would have respected you more had you just said you didn't know what aTAM is. Biology is not your field, nor is it mine. I would expect there are many terms neither of us know.



Excuse me? A Biologist's Guide to Mathematical Modeling And that's just a start.

Indeed mathematical models must be correlated if they are going to make a material claim, but mathematics is most certainly part of science.

Science is based in experiment not models. That is why theoretical physics isn't science.
 
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OliviaMay

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Also, I just don't get what the whole point is.

I am not aware biology even states that it is impossible for there to have been multiple Abiogenesis events. So there is no need to prove it is possible.

If you want to contend that it did happen you are not providing the proper type of evidence. You want to show it is possible. I would think showing it is what happened is what you want to do.
 
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