Rape of a Child Merits Death

[Suomipoika]

fine with me. the organized church is generally corrupt and ignorant anyway.

i'm a christian... not religious.

I'm talking about the early Church in the first couple of centuries AD, at the time before the Church got involved with the Roman empire. At the time when followers of Jesus were persecuted. That's a time when Christians made it absolutely clear that they wanted to have nothing to do with the death penalty. That's also the time whe the Gospel spread most rapidly.

And why do you suppose that when I say "Church" I must mean something "strictly organized and corrupt"? The Church is the "body of Christ". Btw, after getting a bit "organized" with the Roman empire in the 4th century, that's when the Church really started to support the death penalty.

 

[Meshavrischika]

I'm talking about the early Church in the first couple of centuries AD, at the time before the Church got involved with the Roman empire. At the time when followers of Jesus were persecuted. That's a time when Christians made it absolutely clear that they wanted to have nothing to do with the death penalty. That's also the time whe the Gospel spread most rapidly.

And why do you suppose that when I say "Church" I must mean something "strictly organized and corrupt"? The Church is the "body of Christ". Btw, after getting a bit "organized" with the Roman empire in the 4th century, that's when the Church really started to support the death penalty.

unfortunately following the law of the land (which we are also commanded to do) involves the death penalty.

as far as I'm concerned (looking at the church as it was even when Paul was alive) there have been straying church bodies from the beginning so the length of time AD doesn't matter to me. I still think any church that would pass that type of judgement or deny membership to anyone based on political beliefs is off base anyway.

the church is in me, and other believers. it's man who's put a building on it and called it an organization (formal).

 

[Nicki4Christ]

I agree with the death penalty. And I do not believe my baptism would be rejected


Romans 13:1 Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God. 2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow. 3 For the authorities do not frighten people who are doing right, but they frighten those who do wrong. So do what they say, and you will get along well. 4 The authorities are sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for you will be punished. The authorities are established by God for that very purpose, to punish those who do wrong. 5 So you must obey the government for two reasons: to keep from being punished and to keep a clear conscience.

 

[Suomipoika]

as far as I'm concerned (looking at the church as it was even when Paul was alive) there have been straying church bodies from the beginning so the length of time AD doesn't matter to me. I still think any church that would pass that type of judgement or deny membership to anyone based on political beliefs is off base anyway.

I'm not talking about the 'heretic sects' (such as markionism etc.), I'm talking about the apostolic fathers and generally the whole 'orthodox, evangelical' Chrurch in the first centuries. They were all strictly opposed to avenging to their enemies by any kind of violence. They also didn't sue their enemies very easily, and when the case was that a death sentence could have followed, sueing was out of question.

Romans 13:1 Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God. 2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow. 3 For the authorities do not frighten people who are doing right, but they frighten those who do wrong. So do what they say, and you will get along well. 4 The authorities are sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for you will be punished. The authorities are established by God for that very purpose, to punish those who do wrong. 5 So you must obey the government for two reasons: to keep from being punished and to keep a clear conscience.

If you read Romans 13 literally in every way, you have to conclude that your own country was founded in a "deeply un-biblical manner" (revolotion against the authorities) and thus shouldn't exist.

Also, Apostle Paul himself was a blood-thirsty persecutor of Christians before his conversion, he was responsible for getting Christians prisoned and executed. How come God decided to make him into the 'frontline apostle' of the whole Church? The "worst of all sinners".

Where are the Christians who would like to see Saul of Tarsus, that former persecutor and 'killer', on death row?

Why are American Christians so big on 'hard values' and violence and killing?

 

[Meshavrischika]

I'm not talking about the 'heretic sects' (such as markionism etc.), I'm talking about the apostolic fathers and generally the whole 'orthodox, evangelical' Chrurch in the first centuries. They were all strictly opposed to avenging to their enemies by any kind of violence. They also didn't sue their enemies very easily, and when the case was that a death sentence could have followed, sueing was out of question.
I still fail to see why I should care what a church body would do. God has not abandoned me or even chided me in my heart for this belief. Who cares about a bunch of old, dead guys? (BTW... the sueing part is pretty cool - I wish more people were less sue happy)
If you read Romans 13 literally in every way, you have to conclude that your own country was founded in a "deeply un-biblical manner" (revolotion against the authorities) and thus shouldn't exist.
No. What God wills to exist will exist... My DD was willed to exist by God. How she got here wasn't biblical. I still believe her existance was intended and God loves her and has a relationship with her.
Also, Apostle Paul himself was a blood-thirsty persecutor of Christians before his conversion, he was responsible for getting Christians prisoned and executed. How come God decided to make him into the 'frontline apostle' of the whole Church? The "worst of all sinners".
Ah... but he didn't break the law of the land doing it, did he? God decided to do that because he LOVED PAUL and all of us. That does not mean we should not suffer punishment.
Where are the Christians who would like to see Saul of Tarsus, that former persecutor and 'killer', on death row?
If he broke the law and was convicted (in many places christianity was worthy of the death penalty and many christians faced this bravely) then the death penalty is an earthly sentence he should have carried for what he did... but his persecution fo the Jews was legal and supported... so it's a non issue where the governmental death penalty is concerned.
Why are American Christians so big on 'hard values' and violence and killing?
Why are some Christians so weak on this issue they cannot get past earthly death and see that it doesn't matter in the long run, it's spiritual death that matters, not the death of the shell we're trapped in?

 

[reverend B]

paul upheld the law of the land by holding the coats of the men that stoned our first martyr to death, stephen. since this passage from romans states governments are put in place by God to enforce His will and yet does not specify which governments, are we to assume that pol pot was an agent of God? idi amin? shall i go on? paul sought to protect the emerging church from roman persecution, and thus curried favor with the roman powers to leave the band of believers in the Way alone. can we honestly believe that "All governments have been placed in power by God"? paul had a motive for claiming this, and it wasn't to canonize lenin.

 

[Meshavrischika]

we are to assume that while these people are not good people, that their acts have an impact on Christians that will mold and change them to His will (at least IMO)

 

[lawtonfogle]

Here is my view on this.

First and foremost, the DP should never be given to anyone under the age of 21, no-matter how terrible the crime. Why, because science has uncovered that up till the early twenties, all humans (with the exception of 0.00000001% or so) are mentally unstable. It is just a fact of life that the brain is undergoing so major changes.

My problem here is that where will the line be drawn at for these types of cases. Maybe a 40 something year old brutally raping a 8 year old deserves this, but what about the statutory rape of a child which occurs when an 18 year old has consensual sex with his/her 17 year old BF or GF?

And what about (even though most people don't want to think this even happens) an 8 year old raping or having consensual sex with another 8 year old? Even if the first is committing forced rape, can you say that they should be killed for it? And if you don't think DP applies to 8 year olds, just watch the trend of how young the DP applies to people.

Clearly, a line needs to be drawn somewhere.

But, overall, I don't support this. Why, first the DP is too taxing as far as money goes, it is so expensive. Secondly, it is the end. Once applied, the state can't later say "oops, my bad", and it isn't that hard to make a case where someone will be charged for it where they don't deserve it. Third, child rape is too ambiguous a term to apply the DP to. Remember, Murder doesn't allow you to get the DP, certain kinds of murder which are better defined allow you to get the DP.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Oh, wait, one final note which should be understood. Can the DP be applied to those with a mental disorder? I don't think so, and up till now, pedophilia is considered one. Granted, a significant portion of child rapist are not pedophiles, but for those who are, should this apply since it is a mental disorder?

 

[reverend B]

we are to assume that while these people are not good people, that their acts have an impact on Christians that will mold and change them to His will (at least IMO)

what about the impact on non-christians that are brutalized or murdered under their regimes? aren't non-christians the mission field? why do you not seem to care about the impact on them?

 

[Billnew]

Okay, this isn't a debate forum, so I'll leave my "argumentation" at that this time..

oops, good catch.
I didn't realize it was N&CE.
Can't talk anymore other then debate, so I won't read anymore on this topic.

 

[Meshavrischika]

what about the impact on non-christians that are brutalized or murdered under their regimes? aren't non-christians the mission field? why do you not seem to care about the impact on them?

because we all have our path in life we choose to follow and sometimes good people die for a cause by their own choices and by the call of God. All but one of the apostles died due to their faith. Should we mourn their passing? or celebrate their faithfullness? an earthly body is temporary... living for God is forever.

 

[JPPT1974]

I think the death penalty should
Be like for murderers that kill without remorse,
Serial killers, and child killers.
Used to support it all the way but now
I have mixed feelings about it.

 

[reverend B]

because we all have our path in life we choose to follow and sometimes good people die for a cause by their own choices and by the call of God. All but one of the apostles died due to their faith. Should we mourn their passing? or celebrate their faithfullness? an earthly body is temporary... living for God is forever.

this doesn't address my post at all. i am not talking about an evil leaders followers, nor am i talking about christian apostles. i am talking about non-christians trapped under an evil regime that they don't support, like most iraqi's under sadaam.

 

[Meshavrischika]

this doesn't address my post at all. i am not talking about an evil leaders followers, nor am i talking about christian apostles. i am talking about non-christians trapped under an evil regime that they don't support, like most iraqi's under sadaam.

it does address that.

"an earthly body is temporary... "

it's their choice whom to believe in regardless of what regime

basically the human body and our life on this Earth is not something I cherish. sorry. I don't wish pain and/or death on anyone, but I don't see it as an end.... as for the non christian part... that (as said above) is their choice

 

[reverend B]

so did six million jews die under hitler because they did not have God's favor?

 

[Meshavrischika]

so did six million jews die under hitler because they did not have God's favor?

no

they died because they died

and I do believe Jews have God's favor (but normally in a group of Christians I am not in the majority on this topic anyway)

 

[reverend B]

so you believe hitler was allowed to ascend to power because God intended him to be there?

 

[Meshavrischika]

so you believe hitler was allowed to ascend to power because God intended him to be there?

yes

many many many people were hurt/killed, but many people may have been brought to christ or profoundly changed as human beings because of it

i don't think God values our physical bodies as much as the life he's breathed into our soul/spirit so i don't think this even is contrary to the idea that God does things out of love.

if you're going to question God intending hitler to be in power... why not question God intending that a child pass away or that a mother die before her child is grown (which could profoundly change anyone in those situations for the better in the long run)

 

[praying]

yes

many many many people were hurt/killed, but many people may have been brought to christ or profoundly changed as human beings because of it

i don't think God values our physical bodies as much as the life he's breathed into our soul/spirit so i don't think this even is contrary to the idea that God does things out of love.

if you're going to question God intending hitler to be in power... why not question God intending that a child pass away or that a mother die before her child is grown (which could profoundly change anyone in those situations for the better in the long run)

OT

I have to say that yellow is amazingly abrasive to the eyes!