Raised-Fist Photo by Black Women at West Point Spurs Inquiry

[Tallguy88]

Sure... although I wouldn't say the people fighting against the institution of apartheid have a negative connotation (though not surprised when the Confederate flag is called a symbol of pride, exclusive pride, but pride).

Necklacing and car bombing civilian targets. That's pretty negative in my book.

Also, I never said the Confederate flag is a symbol of pride. I said I doubt it would be able to use that excuse to get out of punishment as these cadets did with the black power salute. Pointing out the double standard that is applied.

 

[Tallguy88]

...in a nutshell, for the same reason that many people would assume that white guy with a shaved head, extending his arm straight out in front of him, was affiliated with the Neo-Nazi movement.

***For the record, I'm in no way trying to compare the two groups...just simply using that as an example because it's an example of another group that's also known for striking a certain pose in pictures***

Picture in question
View attachment 174296

Other pictures:
View attachment 174297

...now, do you REALLY not know why some people might come to that conclusion???

Really???


For the record, I have no issue with them wanting to take that picture or convey any ideas they want...they're free-thinking Americans, they should be allowed. But, let's not try to be intentionally naive and pretend like we don't know why people would make that sort assumption about them having a connection with the BLM movement based on the picture.

Exactly.

 

[SummerMadness]

Necklacing and car bombing civilian targets. That's pretty negative in my book.

Also, I never said the Confederate flag is a symbol of pride. I said I doubt it would be able to use that excuse to get out of punishment as these cadets did with the black power salute. Pointing out the double standard that is applied.

Fair enough, but unlike Confederate and Nazi imagery, the black power salute has long been a cultural symbol that is not related to any specific movement. The likelihood these girls were raising their fists for the Black Panthers is remote.

 

[Tallguy88]

Fair enough, but unlike Confederate and Nazi imagery, the black power salute has long been a cultural symbol that is not related to any specific movement. The likelihood these girls were raising their fists for the Black Panthers is remote.

I agree with Nazi imagery. There is basically nothing for it except it's association with the Nazis. The CSA flag is more nuanced, having good meanings, neutral meanings, and bad meanings depending on context and who is using and viewing it.

 

[SummerMadness]

I agree with Nazi imagery. There is basically nothing for it except it's association with the Nazis. The CSA flag is more nuanced, having good meanings, neutral meanings, and bad meanings depending on context and who is using and viewing it.

I'm not equating the imagery of the two, but they were two political symbols mentioned above. Nazi Germany and the Confederate States of America both represent countries/states, so they can only be political where as the Black power fist may have been been a political statement, but later evolved into a cultural symbol. Can a former nation become a cultural symbol? I'm not saying it's impossible, but I would say it's unlikely.

 

[Tallguy88]

I'm not equating the imagery of the two, but they were two political symbols mentioned above. Nazi Germany and the Confederate States of America both represent countries/states, so they can only be political where as the Black power fist may have been been a political statement, but later evolved into a cultural symbol. Can a former nation become a cultural symbol? I'm not saying it's impossible, but I would say it's unlikely.

I think a good argument can be made for it. It's pretty pervasive around here and most people are pretty ignorant about their Civil War history. In most contexts it's a regional pride thing, even if others believe that is misguided.

But I'm not actually saying it should be allowed in the context of the photo. Just that the Black Power one is similarly nuanced.

 

[Armoured]

You asked a question, I answered. You didn't specify that you only wanted American examples.

Besides, it's not some obscure reference, it's one of the most widely recognized uses of the symbol by black guerillas in South Africa during Apartheid.

Um, ok. If you think so.

 

[Sistrin]

True. It is not for those who would infringe on the rights of others to raise their hands.

I realize this is a cosmic waste of time, but in case someone reads this who isn't completely partisan programmed:

Department of Defense
DIRECTIVE

c) DoD Instruction 1334.1, “Wearing of the Uniform,” October 26, 2005

1.1. Reissues Reference (a) to update policies on political activities of members of the Armed Forces.

4.1.1.1. Register, vote, and express a personal opinion on political candidates and issues, but not as a representative of the Armed Forces.

4.1.1.3. Join a partisan or nonpartisan political club and attend its meetings when not in uniform, subject to the restrictions of subparagraph 4.1.2.4. (See DoD Instruction 1334.1 (Reference (c).)

4.1.1.9. Attend partisan and nonpartisan political fundraising activities, meetings, rallies, debates, conventions, or activities as a spectator when not in uniform and when no inference or appearance of official sponsorship, approval, or endorsement can reasonably be drawn.

4.1.2. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty shall not:

4.1.2.12. Display a partisan political sign, poster, banner, or similar device visible to the public at one’s residence on a military installation, even if that residence is part of a privatized housing development.

4.1.4. Subject to any other restrictions in law, a member of the Armed Forces not on active duty may take the actions or participate in the activities permitted in subparagraph 4.1.1., and may take the actions and participate in the activities prohibited in subparagraph 4.1.2, provided the member is not in uniform and does not otherwise act in a manner that could reasonably give rise to the inference or appearance of official sponsorship, approval, or endorsement.

This isn't about anyone supporting or actually attempting the infringement of the right of someone else to raise their hands. How childish to even make such an ignorant claim. This is about the reasonable inference or appearance of official endorsement by a group of West Point Cadets while in uniform on US Military property.

That DOD chose not to pursue the matter is fine. But if you are going attempt to make an argument, at least make an actual attempt.

The black power fist isn't always an expression of racial superiority though.

Then what is it?

 

[Sistrin]

THEY ARE GRADUATING FROM WEST POINT.

African-Americans have been graduating from West Point for some years now.

As a veteran having served in combat zones I can tell you something about West Point graduates. On deployment the fact they graduated from the trade school by the river doesn't mean squat. I served with and under West Point Officers who were exceptional officers and individuals. I served with and under other West Point Officers who were absolute jokes, incompetent to the point of being dangerous. West Point attempts to make leaders. From my experience it was no more successful than ROTC or OCS. At least ROTC grads were taught how to think for themselves.

 

[USincognito]

Weird. I was always taught that the notion of racial superiority was a bad thing. I must've heard wrong.

Where is the notion of racial superiority being promoted?

 

[USincognito]

They don't do the "Black Power" gesture down under?

Is it a "Black Power gesture" when white West Point Cadets do it?
(about 3:15 seconds in)

 

[Chesterton]

Where is the notion of racial superiority being promoted?

In the photo.

Is it a "Black Power gesture" when white West Point Cadets do it?

If it's a Black Power gesture, then yes.

 

[USincognito]

I've seen those and others. Even ten years ago the Flag wasn't as highly scrutinized. Since last July, it's been pariahed.

Really? 2006?
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~class/am483_97/projects/sarratt/intro.html
(go to the Current Controversies section)

 

[USincognito]

In the photo.

Please. Do go on.

Me: Is it a "Black Power gesture" when white West Point Cadets do it?

ChestertonIf it's a Black Power gesture, then yes.

I'm sorry, but this attempt at a clever rejoinder doesn't make any sense. Is a raised fist a "Black Power gesture" when white (and some black if you watched the video) West Point Cadets do it?

 

[tulc]

I'll just leave this here:
http://www.snopes.com/2016/05/11/west-point-black-lives-matter/

The U.S. Military Academy announced today that no punitive action will be taken after an inquiry concluded that 16 cadets who appeared in a photograph with raised fists did not violate Department of Defense or Army regulations.

The inquiry concluded that the photo was among several taken in the spur-of-the-moment. It was intended to demonstrate “unity” and “pride,” according to the findings of the inquiry.

In addition to concluding there was no violation of DOD Directive 1344.10, the findings state, “that based upon available evidence none of the participants, through their actions, intended to show support for a political movement.”

“As members of the Profession of Arms, we are held to a high standard, where our actions are constantly observed and scrutinized in the public domain,” said Lt. Gen. Robert L. Caslen, Jr., academy superintendent, in a letter. “We all must understand that a symbol or gesture that one group of people may find harmless may offend others. As Army officers, we are not afforded the luxury of a lack of awareness of how we are perceived.”

tulc(is in need of more coffee!)

 

[Chesterton]

Please. Do go on.

About what?

I'm sorry, but this attempt at a clever rejoinder doesn't make any sense. Is a raised fist a "Black Power gesture" when white (and some black if you watched the video) West Point Cadets do it?

How was that a clever rejoinder? It's a simple "yes".

 

[nightflight]

I'll just leave this here:
http://www.snopes.com/2016/05/11/west-point-black-lives-matter/

tulc(is in need of more coffee!)

What actually does the "snopes" article bring to this discussion that hasn't been brought before?

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I realize this is a cosmic waste of time, but in case someone reads this who isn't completely partisan programmed:

Department of Defense
DIRECTIVE

c) DoD Instruction 1334.1, “Wearing of the Uniform,” October 26, 2005

1.1. Reissues Reference (a) to update policies on political activities of members of the Armed Forces.

4.1.1.1. Register, vote, and express a personal opinion on political candidates and issues, but not as a representative of the Armed Forces.

4.1.1.3. Join a partisan or nonpartisan political club and attend its meetings when not in uniform, subject to the restrictions of subparagraph 4.1.2.4. (See DoD Instruction 1334.1 (Reference (c).)

4.1.1.9. Attend partisan and nonpartisan political fundraising activities, meetings, rallies, debates, conventions, or activities as a spectator when not in uniform and when no inference or appearance of official sponsorship, approval, or endorsement can reasonably be drawn.

4.1.2. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty shall not:

4.1.2.12. Display a partisan political sign, poster, banner, or similar device visible to the public at one’s residence on a military installation, even if that residence is part of a privatized housing development.

4.1.4. Subject to any other restrictions in law, a member of the Armed Forces not on active duty may take the actions or participate in the activities permitted in subparagraph 4.1.1., and may take the actions and participate in the activities prohibited in subparagraph 4.1.2, provided the member is not in uniform and does not otherwise act in a manner that could reasonably give rise to the inference or appearance of official sponsorship, approval, or endorsement.

This isn't about anyone supporting or actually attempting the infringement of the right of someone else to raise their hands. How childish to even make such an ignorant claim. This is about the reasonable inference or appearance of official endorsement by a group of West Point Cadets while in uniform on US Military property.

That DOD chose not to pursue the matter is fine. But if you are going attempt to make an argument, at least make an actual attempt.



Then what is it?

Being a cadet doesn't mean you're in the military....yet.

 

[nightflight]

Being a cadet doesn't mean you're in the military....yet.

I thought it did.

 

[Sistrin]

Being a cadet doesn't mean you're in the military....yet.

802. ART. 2. PERSONS SUBJECT TO THIS CHAPTER

(a) The following persons are subject to this chapter:

(1) Members of a regular component of the armed forces, including those awaiting discharge after expiration of their terms of enlistment; volunteers from the time of their muster or acceptance into the armed forces; inductees from the time of their actual induction into the armed forces; and other persons lawfully called or ordered into, or to duty in or for training in the armed forces, from the dates when they are required by the terms of the call or order to obey it.

(2) Cadets, aviation cadets, and midshipman.