radiometric dating

Subduction Zone

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Yes, they were nuts. They realized too late and they just kicked them out. What don't you understand about that?

I tried to explain to you and you did not understand the explanation.

One more time, what part of the explanation of why these guys were nuts don't you understand? I now have serious doubts about your claim that you came here to argue against creationism. It seems that you have a rather poor understanding of science in general and you may have been misrepresenting yourself.
 
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Aggie

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Yes, they were nuts. They realized too late and they just kicked them out. What don't you understand about that?

I tried to explain to you and you did not understand the explanation.

One more time, what part of the explanation of why these guys were nuts don't you understand? I now have serious doubts about your claim that you came here to argue against creationism. It seems that you have a rather poor understanding of science in general and you may have been misrepresenting yourself.

Well, let's wait to hear from someone else who was participating in this forum before it started going downhill, especially about your last two sentences.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Well, let's wait to hear from someone else who was participating in this forum before it started going downhill, especially about your last two sentences.
That sounds like a false accusation on more than one level.

Do you understand why we are extremely sure that their findings are wrong? It is obvious to anyone that has had even just an introduction to geology. You may not have dealt with creationists very often, they are extremely dishonest. They almost never do real science. They let their religious beliefs blind them to reality. There are many Christians that have no problem accepting reality. I could give you links to Christian groups that are very active participants in science if you wish.

Accepting science does not make one an atheist.
 
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Aggie

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That sounds like a false accusation on more than one level.

Do you understand why we are extremely sure that their findings are wrong? It is obvious to anyone that has had even just an introduction to geology. You may not have dealt with creationists very often, they are extremely dishonest. They almost never do real science. They let their religious beliefs blind them to reality. There are many Christians that have no problem accepting reality. I could give you links to Christian groups that are very active participants in science if you wish.

Accepting science does not make one an atheist.

Please don't insult me. I'm not a Christian, and I've been debating with creationists for 15 years, both online and in real life. I've debated directly with people who work for Answers in Genesis, including against Gary Vaterlaus at this forum.

This will be my last reply for now. You can keep posting here if you want, but I'm going to wait for some other people to comment here before I say anything else.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Please don't insult me. I'm not a Christian, and I've been debating with creationists for 15 years, both online and in real life. I've debated directly with people who work for Answers in Genesis, including against Gary Vaterlaus at this forum.

This will be my last reply for now. You can keep posting here if you want, but I'm going to wait for some other people to comment here before I say anything else.


I am not too impressed by false outrage. And which particular forum did you supposedly debate him? He is a believer in the Flood of Noah and anyone that believes that is not very worthy as an adversary.
 
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sfs

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SZ, I think your response is unwarranted. I see no reason to doubt Aggie's description of himself or his goals. And there is a genuine issue here: if you refuse even to consider new data because they contradict some previously established idea, then it becomes impossible to overturn existing beliefs in science. A good example of this is the data showing that H. pylori causes most ulcers: it was very had to get published, because everyone knew that it had to be wrong, even though they didn't know why. But it wasn't wrong, and that attitude hindered the advance of science and medicine. This kind of action also reinforces the creationist claim that the evidence for a young earth (or for an intelligent designer or against evolution) is being excluded because of censorship by those with a prior commitment to a worldview, not because creationists are doing bad science.

Nevertheless, had I been screening abstracts for the conference, I would have rejected the one in question. Aggie described the idea that each new claim or new batch of data in science is treated on its own merits, without prejudice, as "idealistic". I disagree. I think it's simply an inaccurate view of science. Scientists mostly don't publish data: we publish studies, studies that rely on an extensive context of established models of how the world works for motivation and interpretation. Any study that simply ignores the existing framework isn't doing science properly, and is almost certainly a waste of time. There are just too many ways of doing experiments wrong, of getting anomalous results, to treat every new experiment as a blank slate. That's why I would reject any abstract that suggested that C-14 dating showed that dinosaur fossils were only tens of thousands of years old. For the same reason, I would reject an abstract that reported, based on a simple biochemical assay, that mice engage in extensive photosynthesis, or one that reports a simple BLAST search showing recent admixture between northern European humans and rutabagas. The fact that there are organized, funded creationists out there who are going through the motions of science, but aren't actually engaged in science, would heighten my suspicion of the dinosaur study, but my underlying reason would be the same as for the photosynthetic mice.

This is not to say that results should be automatically rejected if they go against the prevailing paradigm. But studies attacking the paradigm have to be done in awareness of it; in formal terms, they should have a prior that's strongly weighted toward the paradigm-busting result being wrong somehow. That means, in the case of C-14 dating of dinosaurs, that your working hypothesis has got to be that your results do not reflect the age of the dinosaur, and that therefore your efforts are focused on finding sources of error or contamination. A reasonable model would be the particle physics experiment that reported evidence for faster-than-light neutrinos. They said, roughly, "we realize these results are probably wrong, but we can't see why, and we're inviting the community to assess them and figure out what might be causing them".

For me, preventing the creationists from even doing the work in the first place, by refusing to analyze their samples, raises different issues. That one I'd want to think about at more length.
 
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Aggie

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Thanks for your response, sfs. I wasn't aware of the H. pylori case, but it's another example of the point I was trying to make.

If anyone wants to read the debate between me and Vaterlaus, it starts on this page. As I mention on that page, Andrew Snelling was involved as well, but his involvement took place only via e-mail, not on this forum. It seems like the recent update to the forum software has garbled some of my posts there, but hopefully they're still readable.

I still find this debate a little upsetting. One of the central issues in it was Vaterlaus's accusation (which he later denied having made) that David Parris, who mentored me in paleontology, had deliberately deceived me.
 
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Loudmouth

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There is definitely such a thing as accurate, meaningless data, but you should also investigate any accurate data because something is happening to create that data.

Experimental design and the quality of the hypothesis take precedent over the accuracy of the measurements.

Perhaps these researchers aren't the best choice to do so because of their inherent bias, but I'm still pretty curious as to how they're getting accurate C-14 ages out of 100 million year old dinosaur bones.

You can get accurate measurements of 14C out of any sample. The next step is in showing that these accurate measurements indicate real age. To do this, you need to demonstrate that the sample is biological and has not been contaminated by exogenous carbon. You also need to show that your accurate measurements were not overly influenced by background. From my previous discussions with other about this specific creationist claim, they fail on all accounts.
 
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Loudmouth

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Scientists mostly don't publish data: we publish studies, studies that rely on an extensive context of established models of how the world works for motivation and interpretation. Any study that simply ignores the existing framework isn't doing science properly, and is almost certainly a waste of time. There are just too many ways of doing experiments wrong, of getting anomalous results, to treat every new experiment as a blank slate.

Well said.

I would add that scientists run many independent experiments to make sure that their conclusions will hold up. For example, when you submit papers with RT-PCR measurements for gene regulation the reviewers also like to see assays that measure protein levels for that same gene. If you are going to challenge the existing consensus, then you need to have all of your ducks in a row. One measurement from one experiment isn't going to do it.
 
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dad

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What are you talking about? Science never uses "proof".

Proof is a word with relative connotations. Science has some things that are known-we might say 'proven'. Gravity on and near earth is pretty well known, at least how it works.

A first lifeform, and the big bang are not known by any stretch of the imagination. Now when I ask you if time exists in the far areas of this universe, you need to say 'I don't know'. If I ask you what laws and forces existed near creation, again, you do not know, and cannot prove any claim you may be foolish enough to make about them.

You can try, but that would mean saying something, rather than puff posting.

And yet it works amazingly well. These ages are supported by scientific evidence.
No. They sure are not. They are only supported by belief that you infect evidences with! I have God's disinfectant, thanks.

environmental-issues-ozone_layer-spray-global_warming-changing_climate-rising_temperatures-mmon674_low.jpg


You beliefs are neither scientific or even biblical.
You provide neither science nor bible though to prove your wild and false claim. I grow weary of unbelievers pretending they know the bible. All talk no action.
 
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