Quiting the Church (but are you really quitting?)

[Evangelos]

Since I've converted I've pretty much felt different. Not in the sense that I was supercharged and given special powers or anything like that. I didn't come out of the water any stronger than I ever was. I was just different and that's all I knew.

My relationships with my family (my biological progenitors, not church family) has strengthened post conversion (greatly), but everyone outside of that has actually diminished. That said; what happens when the faith you posses or attain truly does stagnate to the point where you are seeing your role in God's church as non-existent, UN-beneficial or a moot point? The Divine Liturgy every Sunday is the Liturgy. It is not bad or good, it just is. But growth just stops (or appears to) for me.

The bottom line is, the difference wasn't just internal change, it was the painting of a big fat bulls-eye on my back for Satan and his boys to essentially aim and fire. I can't stop or shake the feeling that in some sense, God essentially utilizes Satan to do his 'light work'. what I mean by that is he uses him to essentially beat the tar out of me or at the very least test me.

The hebraic Old testament depiction of Satan is as God's servant who basically works as His accuser and tormentor. Of course God loves us, but His love is essentially love without touchy feely compassion because He wants to save our soul, not our person. He's totally fine with us getting the literally crap kicked out of us as long as it makes us holy and like Him. That might explain why some people only seem to have God redouble the weight of their cross with every complaint they voice. His silence is very hard to interpret. My view is, it just means He is a God of very few words and He doesn't speak en less it's actually absolutely necessary.

-That said, has anyone ever just quit going to church to go work at a soup kitchen or something actually worthwhile? Isn't that a bit like Judas saying, why waste your perfume(time, talents or treasures) when it could be sold and the money given to the poor ? Granted I attend a church where I am universally hated and that is completely normal on a racial level (one I accept), why do I actually have to GO to church to be part of the Church? Am I really so delusional now that I have decided to withdraw which is what St. John Cassian is vehemently against?

Fun times. I'd really love to just run off into the mountains, desert or woods and avoid the annoying 'church', but I know myself too well. I just want to eject so that I don't have to invest myself into something that doesn't appear to be benefiting my person.

Does this happen to everyone ? I LOL'd

 

[RKO]

Why do you think you are universally hated? I mean,if its not too personal a question.

 

[Evangelos]

Read the majority of my posts, you will find how awful of a person I truly am.

 

[gzt]

I don't want to sound like my answer is a general stupid, "Pray, fast, etc...", but, you know, what are you doing besides going to liturgy on Sunday?

Also, taking at face value for the sake of argument what your parish thinks about you, what is holding you to the place you currently live? I realize that moving can be difficult etc, but, you know, when things are rough in one town for certain reasons, it's an option that can be on the table. Even if you have some geographic reason to stay near where you are, it's usually the case in America (which is where I presume you are) that within a couple hours of your current location, you can find a reasonably-sized Orthodox community - reasonable enough that there's not just one ethnic parish. Sure, maybe it'll suck there, too.

 

[Evangelos]

This issue is not a issue of where I am physically, it is an issue of where I am spiritually. I could fast more, but it usually just makes me a bigger [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. After lent I am generally about to invade Poland..

I will try praying more than my standard 1-2 times a day.

 

[Lukaris]

You mentioned that you feel hated in your church and on CF. I do not have time to read many of your posts but I took notice of your thread on spiritual burnout & noticed you have participated in debate types of threads. In TAW, it seemed that others were generally supportive to you & you were validly stressed in other areas of CF.

I tend to think you are most understandably dejected because of isolation from people around you who are ignorant ( not hateful or hostile) towards you. This is obviously not a good thing but I still think you are not around mean spirited people. While what I am saying is of little help, I think it is crucial to realize that most people probably do not dislike you.

I have been mostly a lone wolf because I do not socialize well throughout my life & this in my pre Christian & Christian life. This is my own problem & I do not assume our situations are alike except in the most individualistic aspect.

 

[gzt]

My point about moving is this: the environment of your church really makes a difference. If you feel like everybody there hates you, why bother, you know? I mean, you sound miserable.

Well, you know, I'm not just talking about fasting and prayer, maybe you're fine there, but do you do any volunteer work, have hobbies, have friends, are you, like, human? I don't need to know this, but, you know, a lot of people have a couple "no" answers on that list, and that's not a good thing.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I would say for one, the spiritual dry spell is something we all face, and it is a sign of progress. there are times when the DL has just kinda been there, and I felt that I was going more of as a check the box kinda thing, rather than actually engaging in worship. it happens, and it will pass.

as far as being universally hated, I would say that you are not hated on here at all, and if you feel like you are hated at your parish, check out another one. maybe some other parish has some kinda ministry you can really sink your teeth into.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Evangelos,

Like everyone else here, I can say with 100% honesty that I had no idea anyone "hated" you? I for one don't. Heck, I thought Rus and I were the hated ones in TAW lately?!!!! ROFL!!!

 

[E.C.]

Did you not read my rant from a week ago?
If I had a quarter for every time I've wanted to sell all my possessions and live on Mt. Rainer I would be able to pay off the national debt and keep it in the black for at least 100 years.


The forces of evil like to divide and conquer because they can not take on a community of people praying for their demise at once. It is also sometimes a sign of strong faith to have doubts because the demons panic and think "we'd better get this one out of Church and despondent before he causes more damage to us".

The spiritual dry spells come and go. Tis best to recognize them when they come and figure out a way to defeat them.

 

[Evangelos]

I just don't really see the point in relocation if I am more than likely going to get attacked again. Sometimes you do have to ride out the effects of discouragement. But many saints quit going to church and indeed lived in caves or deserts. I perfer hunting squirrels with a cross bow and eating them raw while building a bomb shelter in north Dakota. But I am basically an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].

 

[ArmyMatt]

I just don't really see the point in relocation if I am more than likely going to get attacked again.

why would you think that you would be attacked again?

 

[Dorothea]

My prayers.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I just don't really see the point in relocation if I am more than likely going to get attacked again. Sometimes you do have to ride out the effects of discouragement. But many saints quit going to church and indeed lived in caves or deserts. I perfer hunting squirrels with a cross bow and eating them raw while building a bomb shelter in north Dakota. But I am basically an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].

Since I've converted I've pretty much felt different. Not in the sense that I was supercharged and given special powers or anything like that. I didn't come out of the water any stronger than I ever was. I was just different and that's all I knew.

My relationships with my family (my biological progenitors, not church family) has strengthened post conversion (greatly), but everyone outside of that has actually diminished. That said; what happens when the faith you posses or attain truly does stagnate to the point where you are seeing your role in God's church as non-existent, UN-beneficial or a moot point? The Divine Liturgy every Sunday is the Liturgy. It is not bad or good, it just is. But growth just stops (or appears to) for me.

The bottom line is, the difference wasn't just internal change, it was the painting of a big fat bulls-eye on my back for Satan and his boys to essentially aim and fire. I can't stop or shake the feeling that in some sense, God essentially utilizes Satan to do his 'light work'. what I mean by that is he uses him to essentially beat the tar out of me or at the very least test me.

The hebraic Old testament depiction of Satan is as God's servant who basically works as His accuser and tormentor. Of course God loves us, but His love is essentially love without touchy feely compassion because He wants to save our soul, not our person. He's totally fine with us getting the literally crap kicked out of us as long as it makes us holy and like Him. That might explain why some people only seem to have God redouble the weight of their cross with every complaint they voice. His silence is very hard to interpret. My view is, it just means He is a God of very few words and He doesn't speak en less it's actually absolutely necessary.

-That said, has anyone ever just quit going to church to go work at a soup kitchen or something actually worthwhile? Isn't that a bit like Judas saying, why waste your perfume(time, talents or treasures) when it could be sold and the money given to the poor ? Granted I attend a church where I am universally hated and that is completely normal on a racial level (one I accept), why do I actually have to GO to church to be part of the Church? Am I really so delusional now that I have decided to withdraw which is what St. John Cassian is vehemently against?

Fun times. I'd really love to just run off into the mountains, desert or woods and avoid the annoying 'church', but I know myself too well. I just want to eject so that I don't have to invest myself into something that doesn't appear to be benefiting my person.

Does this happen to everyone ? I LOL'd

If I may say...

Part of what you said reminded me of a story I came across recently in devotion time as it pertains to those fleeing to the Desert in spiritual warfare:

"At Babylon the daughter of an important person was possessed by a devil. A monk for whom her father had a great affection came to the house. When the monk arrived, the woman possessed with the devil came and slapped him. But he only turned the other cheek, according to the Lord's command (cf. Mt. 5:39). The devil, tortured by this, cried out, 'What violence! The commandment of Jesus drives me out.' Immediately the woman was cleansed. This is how the pride of the devil is brought low, through the humility of the commandment of Christ."

~Abba Daniel of the Desert​

The reason I thought of you when the story came up is that it seems like the people whom you feel have been attacking you have been empowered by the reactions you may be giving them - and that is never something that would help you out in your own walk. As another said best, "It's not what you're called - it's what you answer to" - and reading through Romans 12:18-24), it seems powerful to remember the ways that blessing/praying for those who may try to discourage you is one of the chief ways TO overcome what's coming against us....lest we be overcome by it. It's not losing power to ignore/bless those who do attacks - for it allows us to stay close to the Lord and not allow our own hearts to become bitter since people we become embittered by hold power over our lives. Some people have been in the grave for years and still retain power spiritually over those who are alive because others living have not chosen to forgive and move on. To "Bless and Do Not Curse" (Luke 6) as Christ noted...

If you have to physically move and change your space when someone whom you do not like enters the room, that individual has more influence over your actions than you do - and is not something that has to remain as such thankfully. Even if others talk on us, what matters is what the Lord says about us..

I relate to you in what you feel you're experiencing since I have seen the same myself with others (and been there too) - it is difficult when you feel like leaving the Church because of others. But then that goes to the question of why go to Church - it is for the approval of others, or is it because of being closer to the Lord and strengthened in worship of Him?

Praying for you...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The forces of evil like to divide and conquer because they can not take on a community of people praying for their demise at once. It is also sometimes a sign of strong faith to have doubts because the demons panic and think "we'd better get this one out of Church and despondent before he causes more damage to us".

The spiritual dry spells come and go. Tis best to recognize them when they come and figure out a way to defeat them.

So true...

 

[Evangelos]

If I may say...

Part of what you said reminded me of a story I came across recently in devotion time as it pertains to those fleeing to the Desert in spiritual warfare:

"At Babylon the daughter of an important person was possessed by a devil. A monk for whom her father had a great affection came to the house. When the monk arrived, the woman possessed with the devil came and slapped him. But he only turned the other cheek, according to the Lord's command (cf. Mt. 5:39). The devil, tortured by this, cried out, 'What violence! The commandment of Jesus drives me out.' Immediately the woman was cleansed. This is how the pride of the devil is brought low, through the humility of the commandment of Christ."

~Abba Daniel of the Desert​

The reason I thought of you when the story came up is that it seems like the people whom you feel have been attacking you have been empowered by the reactions you may be giving them - and that is never something that would help you out in your own walk. As another said best, "It's not what you're called - it's what you answer to" - and reading through Romans 12:18-24), it seems powerful to remember the ways that blessing/praying for those who may try to discourage you is one of the chief ways TO overcome what's coming against us....lest we be overcome by it. It's not losing power to ignore/bless those who do attacks - for it allows us to stay close to the Lord and not allow our own hearts to become bitter since people we become embittered by hold power over our lives. Some people have been in the grave for years and still retain power spiritually over those who are alive because others living have not chosen to forgive and move on. To "Bless and Do Not Curse" (Luke 6) as Christ noted...

If you have to physically move and change your space when someone whom you do not like enters the room, that individual has more influence over your actions than you do - and is not something that has to remain as such thankfully. Even if others talk on us, what matters is what the Lord says about us..

I relate to you in what you feel you're experiencing since I have seen the same myself with others (and been there too) - it is difficult when you feel like leaving the Church because of others. But then that goes to the question of why go to Church - it is for the approval of others, or is it because of being closer to the Lord and strengthened in worship of Him?

Praying for you...

I actually didn't want to make this entire thread about MY problems but to identify with others who have experienced them and find some answers to dealing with my negative feelings towards the Parish and the Jurisdiction I am a part of. Let me clarify what I meant by "attacks" and what I did not mean.

It isn't so much being attacked by earthly person within the church (although it happened), its being attacked by a demon (whose arms are long) and can reach me in one city or another.

I have a story for you:

A man pulled into a gas station on the outskirts of town. As he filled his tank, he remarked to the attendant, “I've just accepted a job in town. I've never been to this part of the country. What are people like here?”
“What are people like where you came from?” the attendant asked.

“Not so nice,” the man replied. “In fact, they can be quite rude.”

The attendant shook his head. “Well, I'm afraid you'll find the people in this town to be the same way.”

Just then another car pulled into the station. “Excuse me,” the driver called out. I'm just moving to this area. Is it nice here?”

“Was it nice where you came from?” the attendant inquired.

“Oh, yes! I came from a great place. The people were friendly, and I hated to leave.”

“Well, you'll find the same to be true of this town.”

“Thanks!” yelled the driver as he pulled away.

“So what is this town really like?” asked the first man, now irritated with the attendant's conflicting reports.

The attendant just shrugged his shoulders. “It's all a matter of perception. You'll find things to be just the way you think they are.”

The point is: Sure, I can/could abandon my parents, grandparents, my excellent job, and everything I know. Abandon it so that I can find the next group of people won't take me in fully, accept me despite having different colored eyes or hair, welcome me as "brother", refuse to marry me, refuse to kiss me/shake my hand on forgiveness Sunday, ask me why I bother to participate in the festival because I am not the right color, and on and on and on...

All the these things, essentially Christ dealt with. It's easy for me to say this is the Church that taught me to hate. Its difficult to overcome the prejudice that has honestly built in me to the point where I smile and am congenial outwardly, but internally harbor extremely prejudice views.

The bottom line is, I feel this intense urge to simply follow what a certain orthodox person told me to do. To go back to my own kind. I made a very profound sacrifice a while back to remain Orthodox, and this is what I apparently sacrificed for.

 

[ArmyMatt]

your own kind are the other members of the Church. having been to many parishes of various jurisdictions, I can say that no one has ever looked at me wrong because I am a German/British convert.

and I would also point out, that IF you are looked down upon, you are in good company. that was the lot of many saints. what made them saints is that they endured, probably often only a day at a time.

 

[katherine2001]

Very rarely is the problem all one sided. Usually both sides are part of the problem. Sometimes we don't want to face that we could be part of the problem. We want to think it is all the other person or side. One thing I've learned is that you can run away from others but you can't run away from yourself. A lot of times when I am feeling like you do right now, God is trying to bring something about me that needs to change.

 

[gzt]

Sure, that story and those considerations are why I asked whether there is anything in particular keeping you where you are. It sounds like you have a good reason to stay. Your description of your parish seemed to suggest that going elsewhere could potentially be a solution, however. If you're down on that idea, then you'll have to consider other ways to keep your sanity.

 

[Evangelos]

Sure, that story and those considerations are why I asked whether there is anything in particular keeping you where you are. It sounds like you have a good reason to stay. Your description of your parish seemed to suggest that going elsewhere could potentially be a solution, however. If you're down on that idea, then you'll have to consider other ways to keep your sanity.

I don't like to say much online about myself due to personal reasons but I will say I work in a field where I could probably walk out of my job and have a new one the following week (not that I don't have a wonderful job now). I guess that isn't as desirable as running a dinner...there's a hot job for ya...

I'm still sane but the parish I attend isn't always conducive for it. I've seen others lose it in the last two years. I'd say we lose about a convert family or two a year to other protestant or catholic churches. Our parish has about a 50-70% convert wash out rate and I honestly run into so many people who avoid me when I bring up that I haven't seen them in some time. I don't blame them nor do I care to twist arms to see their return. False guilt and all that isn't from the Lord. Nor is pressure, loaded words or manipulation.

I would also point out, that IF you are looked down upon, you are in good company. that was the lot of many saints. what made them saints is that they endured, probably often only a day at a time.

I wouldn't compare me to them.

Very rarely is the problem all one sided. Usually both sides are part of the problem. Sometimes we don't want to face that we could be part of the problem. We want to think it is all the other person or side. One thing I've learned is that you can run away from others but you can't run away from yourself. A lot of times when I am feeling like you do right now, God is trying to bring something about me that needs to change.

I ain't moving because the problem will obviously follow me. Still doesn't mean I have to show up on Sunday. I hang by a thread but that's life. I'd really rather not go elsewhere. It's one thing to visit a protestant church or catholic church, but I can't stay long. When I dated outside the church I found that out first hand.