Questions regarding the view of Eastern Orthodoxy

[George95]

Hey all!

I have a few questions that I wanted to ask about the Baptist view on the Orthodox Church. I attended a Baptist School for the majority of my high school tenure, so I'm familiar with some of the doctrines, but I've always been interested with the different views of the EOC.

So with that said, I appreciate all who take the time to answer!

1. What is the Baptist View on the Virgin Mary?
2. With Question #1 in mind, what is the view on the Eastern Orthodox view on Mary?
3. What is the view on Icons, and the Divine Liturgy?
4. What is the view on Saints?

For Number #2, I'll give an example. August 15th is the Dormition of the Virgin Mary, and it is a major Feast Day in the Eastern Church. So I've been listening to a service with some hymns referencing Mary, and I'll quote a part of one of the hymns so you can get what I'm saying(Hopefully ):

Crossing the waters as on dry land,
In that way escaping From the evils of Egypt's land,
The Israelites cried out exclaiming:
To our Redeemer and God, now let us sing.

Most Holy Theotokos save us.

With many temptations surrounding me,
Searching for salvation,
I have hastened unto you;
O Mother of the Word, and ever‑Virgin,
From all distresses and dangers deliver me.

Most Holy Theotokos save us.

Assaults of the passions have shaken me,
My soul to its limits
Has been filled with much despair;
Bring peace, O Maiden, in the calmness,
Of your own Son and your God, all‑blameless One.

Glory to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

To God and the Savior you've given birth;
I ask you, O Virgin,
From the dangers deliver me;
For now I run to you for refuge,
With both my soul and my reasoning.

Now and forever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.

Diseased is the body and the soul;
Deem me truly worthy
Of divine guidance and your care;
For you alone are God's Mother,
As the good and the birthgiver of the Good.

English Small Paraklesis - YouTube

Again, I appreciate the time spent reviewing and responding to this!

In Him,

George

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Are you aware that Baptists are not organized so as to have official positions on the questions you ask? Yes, there is a Southern Baptist Convention, but even then, they don't have official positions on other denominations. So I assume you are asking Baptist members more on their individual beliefs about the Easter Orthodox.

I believe the Virgin Mary is the mother of Jesus, but I do not pray to Mary, because she isn't God.

 

[George95]

Are you aware that Baptists are not organized so as to have official positions on the questions you ask? Yes, there is a Southern Baptist Convention, but even then, they don't have official positions on other denominations. So I assume you are asking Baptist members more on their individual beliefs about the Easter Orthodox.

I believe the Virgin Mary is the mother of Jesus, but I do not pray to Mary, because she isn't God.

Yes I'm aware. Hmm I'm sure I'd probably be going for that. Thanks for clarifying Jeff.

 

[Hammster]

Hey all!

I have a few questions that I wanted to ask about the Baptist view on the Orthodox Church. I attended a Baptist School for the majority of my high school tenure, so I'm familiar with some of the doctrines, but I've always been interested with the different views of the EOC.

So with that said, I appreciate all who take the time to answer!

1. What is the Baptist View on the Virgin Mary?

1. She gave birth to Jesus.
   

   [*]With Question #1 in mind, what is the view on the Eastern Orthodox view on Mary?

   It's probably wrong.
   

   [*]What is the view on Icons, and the Divine Liturgy?

   I would need more information.
   

   [*]What is the view on Saints?

All believers are saints, per scripture.

For Number #2, I'll give an example. August 15th is the Dormition of the Virgin Mary, and it is a major Feast Day in the Eastern Church. So I've been listening to a service with some hymns referencing Mary, and I'll quote a part of one of the hymns so you can get what I'm saying(Hopefully ):


English Small Paraklesis - YouTube

Again, I appreciate the time spent reviewing and responding to this!

In Him,

George

I think asking Mary to save us is an unbiblical view. There is one Mediator between God and man. It's not Mary. There's only one Savior. It isn't Mary.

 

[George95]

She gave birth to Jesus.
It's probably wrong.

Clicky This is something that could probably answer that.

I would need more information.

Well icons, such as my avatar of course. And I've heard a few people say that the Divine Liturgy that it is boring and repetitive with no meaning but a simple tradition, with the people going away with nothing.

All believers are saints, per scripture.

I'm aware of that. So as far as the appointed Saints, that would not be Biblical?


I think asking Mary to save us is an unbiblical view. There is one Mediator between God and man. It's not Mary. There's only one Savior. It isn't Mary.

Of course, only we can get to Heaven through Christ Himself.

 

[JM]

What is idolatry?

A. Idolatry is having or inventing something in which one trusts in place of or alongside of the only true God, who has revealed himself in his Word.1

11 Chron. 16:26; Gal. 4:8-9; Eph. 5:5; Phil. 3:19


An Orthodox Catechism - Particular Baptist Hercules Collins

 

[George95]

What is idolatry?

A. Idolatry is having or inventing something in which one trusts in place of or alongside of the only true God, who has revealed himself in his Word.1

11 Chron. 16:26; Gal. 4:8-9; Eph. 5:5; Phil. 3:19


An Orthodox Catechism - Particular Baptist Hercules Collins

I'm confused why you posted this.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Hey all!

I have a few questions that I wanted to ask about the Baptist view on the Orthodox Church. I attended a Baptist School for the majority of my high school tenure, so I'm familiar with some of the doctrines, but I've always been interested with the different views of the EOC.

So with that said, I appreciate all who take the time to answer!

1. What is the Baptist View on the Virgin Mary?
2. With Question #1 in mind, what is the view on the Eastern Orthodox view on Mary?
3. What is the view on Icons, and the Divine Liturgy?
4. What is the view on Saints?

I believe what the Bible says about Mary. I believe that the Eastern Orthodox teachings about Mary are based upon fictional, oral accounts and that the teachings should have no place in a Christian church or in Christian practice.

I believe that the icons found in Eastern Orthodox Churches can serve the same purpose as the Scriptures; that is, to proclaim the gospel, and to remind the faithful of God and His working in the lives of men and men. More often than not, however, I believe that they encourage idol worship and that they are a sinful waste of financial resources.

I do not believe that the liturgy is Divine, but rather that it is a very unfortunate waste of the congregation’s time.

I believe what the Bible says about saints. I believe that the Eastern Orthodox teachings about Saints and sainthood have no basis of fact.

Moreover, I believe that these and other problems that are pervasive in the Eastern Orthodox Church are severely crippling it and making it terribly ineffective in proclaiming the gospel and meeting the needs of the congregations and their communities.

 

[JGGray6]

I agree with most of what has been said. Mary was a normal human, nothing special about her besides the fact God chose her to bear his Son. I don't believe in praying to her nor do I think about her as more than another dead lady. As for the divinity of liturgy, you should know this if you have been to a Baptist church. They do not believe in liturgy. They have a more flowing style of worship.

 

[AgapeBible]

As an artist I appreciate the beautiful icons as Christian art. They should not be bowed down to or kissed in ritual as that imitates pagan idol worship. I thought about joining the Eastern Orthodox church, but I am not sure.

As for Mary, I believe she was a normal human woman who was very virtuous and dedicated to the Lord, which was why he chose her to bear his son. Mary needed to be saved by her son Jesus Christ like everyone else, because she was a sinner too, although her sins must have been minor.


I believe the Lord God has a male and female side, God can be a mother as well as a father. At the same time, while being both male and female, God is also neither one, he is a spirit and is asexual.

 

[Exodus20]

I believe what the Bible says about Mary. I believe that the Eastern Orthodox teachings about Mary are based upon fictional, oral accounts and that the teachings should have no place in a Christian church or in Christian practice.

I believe that the icons found in Eastern Orthodox Churches can serve the same purpose as the Scriptures; that is, to proclaim the gospel, and to remind the faithful of God and His working in the lives of men and men. More often than not, however, I believe that they encourage idol worship and that they are a sinful waste of financial resources.

I do not believe that the liturgy is Divine, but rather that it is a very unfortunate waste of the congregation’s time.

I believe what the Bible says about saints. I believe that the Eastern Orthodox teachings about Saints and sainthood have no basis of fact.

Moreover, I believe that these and other problems that are pervasive in the Eastern Orthodox Church are severely crippling it and making it terribly ineffective in proclaiming the gospel and meeting the needs of the congregations and their communities.

Very good answer to the Thread O.P..

I think the O.P. is obviously an advertisement to join the Eastern Orthodox group. Posting the you tube video --- which just so happens to have the picture of a woman with a small child ... is so very E.O..

I have at least 8 or 10 E.O. leaflets/brochures from a local E.O. assembly. Some of it is good stuff. I have watched some Byzantine Liturgy/chants/hymns ( in Greek & English ) on You Tube. I've watched some Classes / introductions to the E.O. on You Tube from a couple of different sites. I like the idea of a worshipful service. I even kinda like the old pictures done in mosaic tiles... ( Like at "Hagia Sofia" ) ... BUT --- when yaa see people bowing & kissing the icons ... DANGER ! Red Lights Flashing ! I see that practice as a big violation of the 2nd Commandment.

BUT the HUGE mega problem with the E.O. ( and the R.C.s ) is that they elevate Mary of Nazareth to a level the scripture NO place does. They say that she is the "Mother-of-God" ( 'Theotokos' ) --- utter blasphemy and horrible Theology. Mary has a human pedigree which can be found in Luke. She gave birth to Our Redeemer at a stable in Bethlehem. She was very surprised when The Angel Gabriel talked to her and told her the plan of events to take place. She did NOT say to Gabriel : " I know that dude - I'm The Queen of Heaven and I'm 'Theotokos". Nope !

Hope the Thread starter will open up the Gospel according to Luke right now and read what Mary says to the Angel. She is NOT the Mother of God ... she was a servant of The Lord! That G.O./E.O. ( and R.C. ) stuff reeks of Babylon mystery religion.

Christianity is about CHRIST --- NOT His mom! He was whipped and beaten and crucified for the sins of the world --- NOT Mary. He was dead and buried and rose again and ascended unto the Right hand of The Father. Not Mary.

The E.O. also teaches something called 'Theosis' --- scary-spooky stuff folks. It is almost ( but not identical to ) like the L.D.S. Mormon concept of becoming a 'god'.
I hope the Thread starter will read Deut. 6:4 and Is. 44:6 . There is only ONE real God , and the job is already taken !

And all good Baptists said; 'Amen!'.

 

[JM]

I'm confused why you posted this.

Icons, Eastern Orthodox amulets, etc. are often worshiped by the laity. I wrote a short outline to the history of icons that you can read below. Years ago I attended a St. Nektarios Greek Orthodox Church so I am familiar with some of the EO teachings. It has been my experience that most folks in the pew, cradle EO’ers, have little clue as to what the EO teach.

I was once asked if icons could be useful or used in prayer and here was my resopnse.

The only aspiration for the Christian should be to exalt the Gospel, the free grace of God in salvation and declare this salvation through Jesus Christ alone. This was the practice of the early church before the so-called ‘Triumph of Orthodoxy.’ To enter into ‘more pious prayer’ we need to recognize our sinfulness and hopelessness for it is here thhttps://feileadhmor.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/bible.jpgat we experience God’s forgiveness and mercy. When we understand our helplessness in all our trials and earthly trouble we find Jesus Christ sweet, altogether lovely and our prayer is most pious (devout, dutiful, etc).

The better question is why not allow the revealed word of God to direct our worship? Baptists believe the Bible should dictate how Christians are to worship. When we deviate from scripture we invite superstition and idolatry into our church practices. Sacred and profane history has taught us that man manufactures idols out of the desires of his heart all of the time. The righteous man will make an idol of his righteousness and the religionist crafts an idol of his ceremony. To be pious and devout requires us to look to Christ and Him alone for all things.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

https://feileadhmor.wordpress.com/2013/03/05/icons-images-and-worship/

 

[JM]

The Eastern Orthodox demonination makes a big deal about the filioque but it shouldn't.

A quote from Bavinck, "Eastern objections to the term filioque is a last lingering remnant of subordinationism and tends to a dualistic separation of orthodoxy and mysticism." Reformed Dogmatics vol.2.259

I agree with the addition of the filioque because it seems clear from scripture, the addition to the creed is needed, we must confession what we believe.

A few more quotes from other boards:

On Acts 2.33, "You see and hear us speak with tongues that we never learned; probably there was an observable change in the air of their countenances, which they saw, as well as heard the change of their voice and language; now this is from the Holy Ghost, whose coming is an evidence that Jesus is exalted, and he has received this gift from the Father, to confer it upon the church, which plainly bespeaks him to be the Mediator, or middle person between God and the church. The gift of the Holy Ghost was, First, A performance of divine promises already made; here it is called the promise of the Holy Ghost; many exceedingly great and precious promises the divine power has given us, but this is the promise, by way of eminency, as that of the Messiah had been, and this is the promise that includes all the rest; hence God's giving the Holy Spirit to those that ask him (Luke xi. 13) is his giving them all good things, Matt. vii. 11. Christ received the promise of the Holy Ghost, that is, the promised gift of the Holy Ghost, and has given it to us; for all the promises are yea and amen in him. Secondly, It was a pledge of all divine favours further intended; what you now see and hear is but an earnest of greater things."

Heppe quoting Rijssen, "What the difference is between generation of the Son and the procession of the H. Spirit cannot be explained and it is safer not to know than to enquire into it. The Scholastics would look for the difference in the operation of intellectus and voluntas, so that the generation of the Son is brought about by means of intellectus, whence he is called the wisdom of God; but procession by means of voluntas, whence it is called love and charity. But as this is said without Scripture, it involves rather than explains matters. Those talk more sanely, who babbling in such a difficult matter find the distinction in three things. (1) In principle: because the Son emanates from the Father alone, but the H. Spirit from Father and Son at once. (2) In mode: because the Son emanates per vim generationis, which culminates not only in personality but also in likeness, on account of which the Son is called the image of the Father and according to which the Son receives the property of communicating the same essence to another person. But the Spirit does so by spiratio, which ends only in personality, and through which the person who proceeds does not receive the property of communicating that essence to another. (3) In order: because as the Son is the second person, but the H. Spirit the third, generation by our way of thinking, precedes spiratio, although really they are co-eternal."

It seems to be a political dispute that morphed into a theological reason to separate. No one reads the Creed "and from the Son" with the idea of "eternally proceeding from" or "temporally proceeding from" the Son. Heck, most Eastern Orthodox I have use to attend St. Nektarios with describe Eastern Orthodoxy as "Roman Catholic without the Pope."

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[classicalhero]

Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born. Notice the past tense, because after Jesus was born she had other children, because a Jewish woman of her time would be considered cursed by God if she only had one child, plus Joseph not consummating the marriage is something that would be odd in the extreme. We know they fulfilled the laws of Moses regard the time of impurity after giving birth and for them to go against the cultural norms is unlikely.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Hey all!

I have a few questions that I wanted to ask about the Baptist view on the Orthodox Church. I attended a Baptist School for the majority of my high school tenure, so I'm familiar with some of the doctrines, but I've always been interested with the different views of the EOC.

So with that said, I appreciate all who take the time to answer!

1. What is the Baptist View on the Virgin Mary?

She is chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus who is 100% God/100% human. In that sense, she is the mother of God Incarnate. She is an example to follow. We do not pray to her, however, as only the Godhead is omnipresent.

1. With Question #1 in mind, what is the view on the Eastern Orthodox view on Mary?

Seems that they pray to her and perhaps give her more god-like qualities.

1. What is the view on Icons, and the Divine Liturgy?

Icons take away from the reality of God imho. They are just pictures and that is all. Some are very pretty.

What is the view on Saints?

All who are in God are saints. I don't believe there is a special process separating some who are in Christ as saints while others in Christ are not.

 

[JM]

The EO have a debate forum. I'm over there now taking with them. Nice folks.

 

[Basil the Great]

OP - As much as I admire the Eastern Orthodox Church, I seriously doubt that I could ever convert. Having said that, you should pray and go where you believe where God wants you to go. As my late grandmother told me, there will be Christians from all denominations in Heaven, including Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.