Questions for Calvinsts

[skypair]

Please provide your best single verse that says we have "free will" in light of the fact that I have already provided verses that show that all sinners are slaves to sin.

Deut 30:11-20. I know, it's a long passage but it is God's "gospel" appeal to Israel and 30:12-14 is quoted by Paul in Ro 10:6-10. We have to make a choice .. neither Israel nor we are "given" the salvation that you are talking about. We all have to freely choose to believe it, choose to ask for it, and choose to receive it.

Let me ask you .. did you NOT choose to believe? Do you believe that there was no mental process and calculation that went on in your spirit before you believed? Did you NOT ask God to save you? Did you not choose life and blessing?

skypair

 

[Metal Minister]

Deut 30:11-20. I know, it's a long passage but it is God's "gospel" appeal to Israel and 30:12-14 is quoted by Paul in Ro 10:6-10. We have to make a choice .. neither Israel nor we are "given" the salvation that you are talking about. We all have to freely choose to believe it, choose to ask for it, and choose to receive it.

Let me ask you .. did you NOT choose to believe? Do you believe that there was no mental process and calculation that went on in your spirit before you believed? Did you NOT ask God to save you? Did you not choose life and blessing?

skypair

God chose me, so that I would choose Him. There is no choice before that, as I've already shown you. We are slaves to sin unless God breaks our bonds. As numerous passages point out, God does not save nameless faceless groups, and all things are by His will. We exercise no control over God. Give me some time, and I'll give you a proper exegesis of that passage. It may be lengthy though, fair warning.

 

[Choosethisday]

Skypair, having read and listened to many Calvinists present their arguments in writing and in debates may I offer a couple of quick suggestions. First, They often present points as though everyone understands these points to be true. We often don't have time or don't think the point particularly important so we don't argue it at the time. The problem is latter they will reference this "fact" to build an argument on and leave it to us to try to undo the damage after the fact. I have heard James White use this tactic often. The other and perhaps more important point is that they really do see the verses in an entirely different way than us. In fact, for the most part both sides tend to use most of the same verses, but with different understandings. So I always try to explain the meaning of whatever verses I give so there is les chance of a syncretism in understanding. This means it takes more time to get through the points but I think it builds a stronger argument. I realize the Calvinists tend to shotgun a bunch of verses which might our might not pertain. This is another tactic White is well known for. This might sway the less careful listeners but the more thoughtful ones likely will see through it. Anyway, wish I had the time to jump back in but we are trying to get our next class started so for a while longer I need to be careful of distractions.

 

[twin1954]

Deut 30:11-20. I know, it's a long passage but it is God's "gospel" appeal to Israel and 30:12-14 is quoted by Paul in Ro 10:6-10. We have to make a choice .. neither Israel nor we are "given" the salvation that you are talking about. We all have to freely choose to believe it, choose to ask for it, and choose to receive it.

You are joking right? If you think that God's "appeal" to keep the Law is the Gospel then you need to learn the Gospel. Apparently you haven't read the book of Galatians and seem to miss the message of the book of Romans.

Let me ask you .. did you NOT choose to believe? Do you believe that there was no mental process and calculation that went on in your spirit before you believed? Did you NOT ask God to save you? Did you not choose life and blessing?

skypair

Sure we chose to believe. We did so when the Spirit gave us life and faith in Christ by the foolishness of the preaching of the true Gospel. You folks love to quote Matt. 11:28 but skip over Matt. 11:25-27. You throw out John 3:16 as though it ends all argument but never mention what the Lord Jesus said before that in John 3:3-8. Especially verse 3 where the Lord plainly says that unless we are born again we cannot even see, much less desire, the kingdom of God. But just in case you haven't got it yet you need to read 1John 5:1. John says that whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. The birth comes before the belief.

As to our choice it is obvious that we willingly choose Christ but only after we have made to know in our soul the depth of our sin and the grace of God in Christ by the Spirit raising us from death unto life and opening our blind eyes. He makes us willing, Psa. 110:3, and like that leper we come worshipping asking the Lord to have mercy on us. Luke 5:12 He didn't tell the Lord that he was going to allow Him to make him clean he said you can if you will. We come as he did because we have no other place to go. None who came to Jesus seeking mercy ever left without finding it. But none came to Him as though they were doing Him a favor by allowing Him to save them.


The truth you reject is that God's choice determines our choice. But you haven't grasped the truth that God's choice is the love and mercy of God in action. Whatever God does He does as the Sovereign King of all Creation and everything He does He does with power and authority to do whatever He will with His own. Christ comes to the heart of the rebel as a conquering King before He comes as a comforting friend.

Read John 16:8-11. The Spirit convinces of sin because they do not believe on Christ, that is they are made to know their rebellion and foolishness in unbelief, of righteousness because He goes to the Father, that is that He is their only hope of righteousness, and of judgment because the prince of this world is judged, that is that in Him we have already been judged and found blameless.

The Spirit doesn't make the Gospel appealing to the rebel he makes the Gospel the power of God unto salvation.

The simple fact is that if you believed that the preaching of the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe then you wouldn't depend so much on trying to convince folks to make a choice but instead tell them of the accomplishments of Christ. The Gospel is never about man doing something it is about what has already been done by Christ.

If you ever learn the Gospel you to will be a Calvinist.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

You are joking right? If you think that God's "appeal" to keep the Law is the Gospel then you need to learn the Gospel. Apparently you haven't read the book of Galatians and seem to miss the message of the book of Romans.

Nope....he's NOT joking. He was banned on another message board with his "off the deep end" theologies....

Sure we chose to believe. We did so when the Spirit gave us life and faith in Christ by the foolishness of the preaching of the true Gospel. You folks love to quote Matt. 11:28 but skip over Matt. 11:25-27. You throw out John 3:16 as though it ends all argument but never mention what the Lord Jesus said before that in John 3:3-8. Especially verse 3 where the Lord plainly says that unless we are born again we cannot even see, much less desire, the kingdom of God. But just in case you haven't got it yet you need to read 1John 5:1. John says that whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. The birth comes before the belief.

As to our choice it is obvious that we willingly choose Christ but only after we have made to know in our soul the depth of our sin and the grace of God in Christ by the Spirit raising us from death unto life and opening our blind eyes. He makes us willing, Psa. 110:3, and like that leper we come worshipping asking the Lord to have mercy on us. Luke 5:12 He didn't tell the Lord that he was going to allow Him to make him clean he said you can if you will. We come as he did because we have no other place to go. None who came to Jesus seeking mercy ever left without finding it. But none came to Him as though they were doing Him a favor by allowing Him to save them.


The truth you reject is that God's choice determines our choice. But you haven't grasped the truth that God's choice is the love and mercy of God in action. Whatever God does He does as the Sovereign King of all Creation and everything He does He does with power and authority to do whatever He will with His own. Christ comes to the heart of the rebel as a conquering King before He comes as a comforting friend.

Read John 16:8-11. The Spirit convinces of sin because they do not believe on Christ, that is they are made to know their rebellion and foolishness in unbelief, of righteousness because He goes to the Father, that is that He is their only hope of righteousness, and of judgment because the prince of this world is judged, that is that in Him we have already been judged and found blameless.

The Spirit doesn't make the Gospel appealing to the rebel he makes the Gospel the power of God unto salvation.

The simple fact is that if you believed that the preaching of the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe then you wouldn't depend so much on trying to convince folks to make a choice but instead tell them of the accomplishments of Christ. The Gospel is never about man doing something it is about what has already been done by Christ.

If you ever learn the Gospel you to will be a Calvinist.

BINGO!!!!

 

[skypair]

God chose me, so that I would choose Him. There is no choice before that, as I've already shown you. We are slaves to sin unless God breaks our bonds. As numerous passages point out, God does not save nameless faceless groups, and all things are by His will. We exercise no control over God. Give me some time, and I'll give you a proper exegesis of that passage. It may be lengthy though, fair warning.

You know .. I was thinking about that last night as I prayed. Actually, He only foreknew that you would choose Him. I didn't show you what made your will free to choose, did I?

Sin nature and the will are all about what you know about freedom from the slavery to sin (which is the sin nature) and whether you apply it. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." That Bible verse used to be emblazoned across ever paper I would deliver as a kid. As a lost sinner, you are only bound by deception, MM. You ate the apple and now you are bound by Satan and the world until you meet God.

It's not that the Light doesn't go out to every man born into this world (Jn 1:9) — it DOES! And it is not that God didn't choose some because He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to REPENTANCE (get that? REPENTANCE - 2Pet 3:9). It is that most don't choose to believe the Truth .. and of those, most don't apply the Truth!

So the will, the heart, is set free by the knowledge of the truth and MUST choose to believe. You chose to believe. God didn't break your bonds to sin, only your ignorance of the Truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ (And may I suggest that, by the sound of it, you still don't know what that gospel is?).

We DO exercise control over what God can do in our lives, MM. The Truth can be freely accepted or freely rejected. God does NOT control your mind, your will, or you body — YOU do. He chose you "in Christ" before the foundation…" That means that He foresaw you to have chosen to be "in Christ."

Let me ask you .. now that you think you are saved, are you going to blame God for your sin? as if He controlled you causing you to sin even as He caused you to be saved? I think not, but what is your answer? The Truth is that you can't "blame" God for anything but your birth (per Job's lament) — for giving you life.

Where do you find fault with this view so far?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Nope....he's NOT joking. He was banned on another message board with his "off the deep end" theologies....

Yes. It is amazing how Calvinists can take over a board and dismiss folks they don't like.

Happened, amazingly, on RaptureReady, too. Got taken over by postribbers (I kid you not — just about 15 years ago) and they didn't like "deep end" pretrib eschatology!

skypair

 

[skypair]

You are joking right? If you think that God's "appeal" to keep the Law is the Gospel then you need to learn the Gospel. Apparently you haven't read the book of Galatians and seem to miss the message of the book of Romans.

It wasn't an appeal to keep the law. The law is NOT a gospel. God's appeal in Deut 30 and throughout the OT was an appeal to come to the "gospel of the kingdom." That was the gospel of Messiah coming to take away sin of believers at the coming of His kingdom to earth.

Sure we chose to believe. We did so when the Spirit gave us life and faith in Christ by the foolishness of the preaching of the true Gospel.

You fell short of salvation if that is what you believe. The Spirit/Word lights every man who comes into the world, Jn 1:9. You were simply enlightened by the Spirit. You were not regenerated .. you were "given" life and faith. It probably seemed like it to you. I know it was it was earth-shaking to me when I heard the gospel .. especially because I had never heard of my relationship to it in any church I had been to before (Methodist, Presbie, Congregational, etc.). It was always told me that I was, like you seem to think, accepted into it — not that I was a sinner in need of a Savior! Now was it told me that there was anything that I need do about it but believe!

You folks love to quote Matt. 11:28 but skip over Matt. 11:25-27. You throw out John 3:16 as though it ends all argument but never mention what the Lord Jesus said before that in John 3:3-8. Especially verse 3 where the Lord plainly says that unless we are born again we cannot even see, much less desire, the kingdom of God. But just in case you haven't got it yet you need to read 1John 5:1. John says that whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. The birth comes before the belief.

What makes you think that these passages only fit into a Calvinist gospel? We, of course, DO cite all those scriptures and their contexts. Our question would be, "Why do they only mean what you want them to mean?" Why can we not "come unto [Christ]?" What makes that a welcome only for the saved?

What makes you think that "born again" really means "born from above" and not "born again from above?" I mean, in your physical birth, your spirit came from God, did it not? Does the gospel of Jesus Christ not come down from God above, too? And 1Jn 5:1 — It is patently stipulated, verses before and after, that this is an encouragement to love God, the brethren, and keep His commandments.

As to our choice it is obvious that we willingly choose Christ but only after we have made to know in our soul the depth of our sin and the grace of God in Christ by the Spirit raising us from death unto life and opening our blind eyes.

This you can see with your natural mind, spirit, once you are "enlightened." You needn't be born again to understand this. All you need is to hear and acknowledge the truth.

He makes us willing, Psa. 110:3, and like that leper we come worshipping asking the Lord to have mercy on us. Luke 5:12 He didn't tell the Lord that he was going to allow Him to make him clean he said you can if you will. We come as he did because we have no other place to go. None who came to Jesus seeking mercy ever left without finding it. But none came to Him as though they were doing Him a favor by allowing Him to save them.

I am surprised that you thrust these evil motives on those you don't agree with, twin. Where can that be coming from? Have you not read that you are jealous and you strive because you have not? And you have not because you ask not?

The truth you reject is that God's choice determines our choice.

That is plainly truth to you. So why did God choose you? And if He chose you, why couldn't He choose me who believes something entirely different about the gospel of salvation? You're not going to say that it is about what we believe, are you? Because that would actually be about what we chose to believe, wouldn't it!!

Read John 16:8-11. The Spirit convinces of sin because they do not believe on Christ, that is they are made to know their rebellion and foolishness in unbelief,…

So here you state quite plainly that the sinner CAN understand his sin guilt and lostness apart from regeneration. Good.

of righteousness because He goes to the Father,…

Good. The sinner can also understand the righteousness of God is only "in Christ." You're on a roll, as they say!

...and of judgment because the prince of this world is judged,…

Exactly! Just like in Ro 1:18, the sinner CAN understand God's wrath against sin and His judgment thereof.

The Spirit doesn't make the Gospel appealing to the rebel he makes the Gospel the power of God unto salvation.

Yeah, Ro 1:16 — the power of God unto salvation to everyone who chooses to believe!

The Gospel is never about man doing something it is about what has already been done by Christ.

That is correct .. the GOSPEL is not about us. But salvation IS. It's about "what shall WE do" now that we know. And what did Peter say? Acts 2:38 — Repent calling on the name of Christ for salvation and receive regeneration.

If you ever get a mind to think for yourself, you will probably do this.

skypair

 

[twin1954]

It wasn't an appeal to keep the law. The law is NOT a gospel. God's appeal in Deut 30 and throughout the OT was an appeal to come to the "gospel of the kingdom." That was the gospel of Messiah coming to take away sin of believers at the coming of His kingdom to earth.

If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
(Deu 30:10-16)

Apparently you haven't actually read the passage so here it is. You have to twist it to get your false gospel out of it.

You fell short of salvation if that is what you believe. The Spirit/Word lights every man who comes into the world, Jn 1:9. You were simply enlightened by the Spirit. You were not regenerated .. you were "given" life and faith. It probably seemed like it to you. I know it was it was earth-shaking to me when I heard the gospel .. especially because I had never heard of my relationship to it in any church I had been to before (Methodist, Presbie, Congregational, etc.). It was always told me that I was, like you seem to think, accepted into it — not that I was a sinner in need of a Savior! Now was it told me that there was anything that I need do about it but believe!


What makes you think that these passages only fit into a Calvinist gospel? We, of course, DO cite all those scriptures and their contexts. Our question would be, "Why do they only mean what you want them to mean?" Why can we not "come unto [Christ]?" What makes that a welcome only for the saved?

What makes you think that "born again" really means "born from above" and not "born again from above?" I mean, in your physical birth, your spirit came from God, did it not? Does the gospel of Jesus Christ not come down from God above, too? And 1Jn 5:1 — It is patently stipulated, verses before and after, that this is an encouragement to love God, the brethren, and keep His commandments.


This you can see with your natural mind, spirit, once you are "enlightened." You needn't be born again to understand this. All you need is to hear and acknowledge the truth.


I am surprised that you thrust these evil motives on those you don't agree with, twin. Where can that be coming from? Have you not read that you are jealous and you strive because you have not? And you have not because you ask not?


That is plainly truth to you. So why did God choose you? And if He chose you, why couldn't He choose me who believes something entirely different about the gospel of salvation? You're not going to say that it is about what we believe, are you? Because that would actually be about what we chose to believe, wouldn't it!!


So here you state quite plainly that the sinner CAN understand his sin guilt and lostness apart from regeneration. Good.


Good. The sinner can also understand the righteousness of God is only "in Christ." You're on a roll, as they say!


Exactly! Just like in Ro 1:18, the sinner CAN understand God's wrath against sin and His judgment thereof.


Yeah, Ro 1:16 — the power of God unto salvation to everyone who chooses to believe!


That is correct .. the GOSPEL is not about us. But salvation IS. It's about "what shall WE do" now that we know. And what did Peter say? Acts 2:38 — Repent calling on the name of Christ for salvation and receive regeneration.

If you ever get a mind to think for yourself, you will probably do this.

skypair

I am not going to waste my time responding to this nonsense. Especially given the fact that you not only misquote passages but misrepresent them totally. Acts 2:38 says nothing even close to what you quote. Perhaps you need to actually read the Scriptures before you try to teach others what they say.

 

[skypair]

If thou shalt ... turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

Here's the part I would be referring to. You know and I know that no one can keep the law/commandments. Life and blessing (salvation) were obtained by turning to Him (repentance).

I am not going to waste my time responding to this nonsense. Especially given the fact that you not only misquote passages but misrepresent them totally. Acts 2:38 says nothing even close to what you quote. Perhaps you need to actually read the Scriptures before you try to teach others what they say.

This has been a public service announcement from the kingdom of heaven. Stand by for more bulletins as they develop.

skypair

 

[twin1954]

Here's the part I would be referring to. You know and I know that no one can keep the law/commandments. Life and blessing (salvation) were obtained by turning to Him (repentance).


This has been a public service announcement from the kingdom of heaven. Stand by for more bulletins as they develop.

skypair

A text taken out of context is nothing but a pretext. It is the method of every heretical group.

 

[JM]

Here's the part I would be referring to. You know and I know that no one can keep the law/commandments. Life and blessing (salvation) were obtained by turning to Him (repentance).


This has been a public service announcement from the kingdom of heaven. Stand by for more bulletins as they develop.

skypair

The message of the Gospel is being alternated to appeal to a large mass of people, to help them feel religious and encourage the natural covenant of Law keeping. Let's face it, man hates grace, they rather work for it. Do something to get it, and all this without God.

May God have mercy on us if this continues.

jm

 

[skypair]

A text taken out of context is nothing but a pretext. It is the method of every heretical group.

Soo, I'm thinking that you don't know anything but Arminianism and Catholicism. May I tell you about my biblical salvation?

skypair

 

[skypair]

The message of the Gospel is being alternated to appeal to a large mass of people, to help them feel religious and encourage the natural covenant of Law keeping. Let's face it, man hates grace, they rather work for it. Do something to get it, and all this without God.

May God have mercy on us if this continues.

What religious denomination do you know that hates grace? Do you know what grace is? It is the wisdom of God. Do men hate that from which only good can come?

Do you know what the gospel is? It is the wisdom of God regarding salvation. If you would, like all of God's grace, would believe it and apply it, you would be saved and blessed!!

skypair

 

[JM]

What religious denomination do you know that hates grace? Do you know what grace is? It is the wisdom of God. Do men hate that from which only good can come?

Do you know what the gospel is? It is the wisdom of God regarding salvation. If you would, like all of God's grace, would believe it and apply it, you would be saved and blessed!!

skypair

Answering the questions as asked:

Not a denomination but a theology.
Yes.
No. Grace is not based on wisdom.
In their natural state, man is at enmity against God.
Yes. Do you?

 

[Choosethisday]

JM, what is the name of the free download for the verbalized voice you used in your Arminian video?
Thanks

 

[JM]

I honestly cannot remember. It was a google result...for a free reading program.

jm

 

[Choosethisday]

OK, thanks. I tried one free program but my computer is getting a little old so wouldn't run it well. I may wait till my next computer.
Thanks again

 

[skypair]

Not a denomination but a theology.

OK, which?

No. Grace is not based on wisdom.

Really?! How does God give us grace, then?

In their natural state, man is at enmity against God.

In their natural state, men are ignorant of God.

In their sinful state, there are parts of man that hate God and others the love God's blessings and want to be so blessed. Men are very equivocal about God because they can't deny Him once they acknowledge His existence, Ro 1:18-20. Yet they do flee from His Light.

I believe that the thing that "draws" all men is the desire for eternal life and life more abundantly (Jn 10:10) that God offers men. That is the "carrot" whereas His wrath is the "stick."

skypair

 

[twin1954]

Soo, I'm thinking that you don't know anything but Arminianism and Catholicism. May I tell you about my biblical salvation?

skypair

I have studied quite a few different religions and sects. I am familiar with most of the heretical groups calling themselves "Christian". But I am not interested in hearing which heretical group you belong to.