Questions for Bible2

[Bible2+]

ThomasGuthler said in post 99:

More entries: . . .

Thank you for saving these, and for letting me review them.

I hope to add parts of the 1st entry as 3 new sections under *Josh. 24:15.

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Thank you for helping me to make these additions to the blog

Can you post 3 more entries that aren't yet in the blog?

 

[ThomasGuthler]

More entries:


Who tempted Lucifer?

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/who-tempted-lucifer.7372716/#post-52144851

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In addition to this systematic reading of the Bible, if you pray to God for special guidance through a particular situation you might find yourself in, you can (if God leads you to) open the Bible (as it were) randomly, and then read whatever two or three chapters you happen to open upon. For God may want you to read those particular chapters at that time, in order to apply their basic principles to your situation at that time.

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Quote: „How do I relate the bible to my life where do I start“

A: Start by reading the Gospel of John from start to finish. Then read the Gospel of Matthew. Then read the book of Romans. Then read the rest of the New Testament. You will know how to relate what it says to your life, once you know what it teaches.

Quote: „I've got myself a new Bible and am going to start reading it tonight, along with my husband. I really wanted to read everything in order, but I keep hearing that's not a great plan.“

A: It's not, for you could get bogged down in Leviticus and put the Bible aside and never pick it up again.

Quote: „I think we're going to read the first four books of the New Testament and then go back and read the Old Testament. Does that sound like a good plan?“

A: The first part of it does, but not the second part, for the reason given above.

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The Bible itself shows someone reading the Bible out loud to himself (Acts 8:28,30). For it was the common (though not universal) practice in ancient times for people to read everything out loud, even to themselves.

Also, there are some recordings of people reading the Bible out loud in which the reader's excellent voice can help us to realize more the grandeur of the scriptures. Some of these recordings also have great background music which can also help us to sense more the majesty of what's being said. Also, when the Bible is quoting different people having a conversation (e.g. Luke 20), some recordings have a different person read each part, which can help us to experience more the drama of what's going on. And some recordings even have background sound effects, like the sound of a large crowd of people (e.g. Mark 6:39) or water running in a river (e.g. John 1:28) or the music at a wedding feast (John 2:9-10), which can help us to imagine the scene more fully, and so to remember it better.

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It's good to be familiar with the KJV and have that as the translation that comes to mind when you think of a verse, for then you can locate where that verse is in the Bible by looking any major word in that verse up in Strong's Concordance, which is keyed only to the KJV. Strong's Concordance also contains Hebrew and Greek dictionaries so that one can confirm that the KJV is an accurate translation and doesn't water the scriptures down for "modern" consumption.

The KJV does sometimes employ archaic English words, but once one is aware of what those are, one can easily read them for their true meaning. For example, in Psalm 88:13, the English word "prevent" is employed in its archaic sense of "meet", just as in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 the English word "prevent" is employed in its archaic sense of "precede". In neither case should the English word "prevent" be read in its modern sense of causing something not to happen.

The beauty of the KJV, when read with a Strong's Concordance at hand, is that one can look up any English word that doesn't seem to make sense and see what the original Hebrew or Greek meant.

After reading most of the other major translations (e.g. NIV, NAS, NKJV), many people return to the KJV for the beauty and richness of its language. It's like a fine wine which takes some getting used to, but once one has become familiar with it, it's hard to read the other translations without finding them somewhat watered down, as if "something is missing".

People don't return to the KJV for pagan reasons, for the beauty and richness of its language reflects the beauty and richness of the original languages of God's Word (Hebrew and Greek). The KJV is a word-for-word translation as opposed to so many "modern" translations which feel they have the right to interpret God's Word and present it in watered-down namby-pamby English which is nothing more than a paraphrase.

People could reject the KJV for the pagan reasons of sheer laziness in not wanting to read it because they think it's "too hard" to get used to (when it isn't at all), or they hate it because it reminds them of someone or some church which they are holding great bitterness toward. If we approach the KJV for itself, separating it from any connections it might have with people we hate, and if we give the KJV a chance and read every word of it five or six times, then we'll find that it's a great blessing, and we won't want to go back to the pale translations/paraphrases which have been produced by "modern" men.

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The devil knows full well that it is by reading the Bible itself, or by hearing the Bible itself read aloud by somebody else, that people come into true faith:

Romans 10:17 ... faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The devil does everything he can to get people to stop reading the Bible for themselves and start reading human commentaries and church catechisms and human traditions and cultish "aids to understanding", anything but the precious Bible itself.

… the devil can even remove the scriptures from the hearts of some people so that they will never come into a true faith and be saved:

Luke 8:12 ...Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Augustine writes [...] in his Confessions, that he first came to repentance and faith by reading the Bible (particularly Romans 13:13-14), after God spoke to him to pick it up and read it.

Nowhere does the Bible say that faith comes by the authority of mere fallible humans.

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1 Corinthians 2:12-13 means that we can't understand the words of God in the Bible without receiving the Holy Spirit, who is usually received through the laying on of hands (Acts 19:2,6, 8:15-17), for the words of God in the Bible weren't written down through any mere human understanding, but by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:21, 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

In 1 Corinthians 2:13, "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" means that we must compare related verses in different places in the Bible with each other in order to arrive at correct doctrine (Isaiah 28:9-10).

The whole "reading the Bible in context" rule is in no way man's wisdom, but God's wisdom, for we must always compare our interpretation of one verse against what every other verse in the Bible says, to see if our interpretation of that one verse contradicts any other verse in the Bible. If it does, then clearly our interpretation is in error; no matter how "spiritual" we may think that it is, it's a lie. Satan loves to get people feeling all "spiritual" as they contradict the clear teachings of the actual words of God in the Bible (2 Corinthians 11:4,13-15, 1 Timothy 4:1-2, 2 Timothy 3:15-4:4).

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Actually, the Bible itself says that it is inspired: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16).

The original Greek word translated as "inspiration" in 2 Timothy 3:16 is "theopneustos". "Theos" means God and "pneustos" means "breathed". God's "breath" is the same as his "Spirit", his Holy Spirit. So saying that the Bible is inspired by God means that the Bible "came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit" (2 Peter 1:21). This means that those who wrote the Bible weren't just writing their own ideas, but the ideas that God's Holy Spirit moved them to write.

It means that all of the "doctrine" and "instruction" contained in the Bible is from God, that God conveyed infallible doctrine and instruction to us through the writers of the Bible: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Timothy 3:16-17). The doctrine and instruction of the Bible can be translated into any language. No part of the Bible is from a non-inspired source (2 Timothy 3:16).

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2 Peter 1:20 does address non-Biblical writings which are interpretations of the Bible.

2 Peter 1:20-21 means that we can't understand scripture apart from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, just as scripture wasn't written without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:

2 Timothy 3:16 ...All scripture is given by inspiration of God ...

1 John 2:27 ... the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

John 16:13 ... when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[ThomasGuthler]

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Note that any cross references in a Bible are not actually part of the original Bible, but are fallible, man-made additions, like commentary.

Regarding commentaries on the Bible, the more we read the Bible for ourselves the more we find commmentaries to be superfluous, if not sometimes also in error, for the Bible ultimately explains itself as we compare verses regarding something in one place in the Bible with other verses regarding that same thing in other places in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10, 1 Corinthians 2:13); and any claim made by a commentary must always be tested against what the Bible itself actually says
(Acts 17:11, 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

God doesn't want us to go seeking after the wisdom of men in commentaries, but to compare divinely-inspired scriptures with one another to arrive at correct doctrine (1 Corinthians 2:13, Isaiah 28:9-10, 2 Timothy 3:15-17, 2 Peter 1:21).

But this requires that we actually read the Bible for ourselves, every last word of it (Matthew 4:4), over and over and over again, until we become completely familiar with every verse in the Bible, and can begin to see all the ways that they connect with each other, explain each other, qualify and define each other.

The ultimate context of each verse in the Bible is every other verse in the Bible. There's no way that we can know if an interpretation of one verse is correct until we've made sure that that interpretation of that one verse doesn't contradict any other verse in the Bible.

But often what Christians do is turn only to commentaries, or only to radio or TV preachers, or their own pastors, and get all their doctrine from these, without ever testing what they say against what the Bible itself says (Acts 17:11).

It is by comparing related verses "here" and "there" in the Bible that we arrive at correct doctrine; we can't stay sucking at the pap of any particular church for our doctrine, for that church's doctrine could be wrong:

Isaiah 28:9 ...Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little ...

1 Corinthians 2:13 ...Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

So we don't submit our interpretation of any one verse to the wisdom of fallible men, but to the divine, infallible wisdom of all of the other verses in the Bible.

This requires that we read every verse in the Bible, over and over and over again, until we are fully acquainted with everything that the Bible teaches and everything that it teaches is so engrained in our memory that when we read one verse many other related verses immediately come to mind to keep our interpretation of that one verse on the straight and narrow, to keep us from straying off into any false idea of what that one verse means.

It takes work to read every verse in the Bible over and over again. How much easier, how much lazier, it is to throw up our hands and just follow whatever someone tells us the Bible means. But then we can never be sure they're right; what if there is some verse we haven't read yet, or the last time we read it was so long ago we have no memory of it, and that verse contradicts what the person we turned to told us? Then it's our own fault, our own laziness, that is keeping us from knowing the truth, and we will be held accountable.

2 Timothy 2:15 ...Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

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The point of these replies to one's post is that one must look beyond the discord among us fallible Christians and start looking to the infallible Bible itself, which is not filled with legends, but things that actually happened: "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty" (2 Peter 1:16); "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ" (1 John 1:1-3).

If one can take anything good away from the discord among us Christians, it could be that even in our personal relationships with Jesus, he does not turn us into "Borg"-like automatons who are all the same, who have no free will, no personality. Jesus leaves us as real human beings, with very different personalities, very different strengths and weaknesses. If we all will choose to submit ourselves to what God's own Word the Bible actually teaches about everything, then instead of our differences as unique individuals causing us discord, they can instead be combined into one church which is truly and amazingly "one body" (Ephesians 4:4).

All of us unique, individual Christians should be operating together like one human body, which though it is only one body still includes very different parts: "For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another" (1 Corinthians 12:14-25).

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The JW religion says that all Bible translations are incorrect except for its own translation, which inserts words not in the original texts, and mistranslates verses, when verses left alone would contradict its mistaken doctrines. Also, when verses can't be altered or mistranslated enough to not contradict its mistaken doctrines without those altered or mistranslated verses losing all connection with the original texts, the JW religion claims that no one can properly understand those verses apart from reading its own publications, which purport to explain those verses in a way that supports its mistaken doctrines.

Because the JW religion can't endure the sound, Biblical doctrine that God requires an infinite amount of suffering for sin (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46) and that Jesus is one God with the Father (e.g. John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28, Philippians 2:6, Revelation 2:8, Titus 2:13), and replaces these doctrines with its own fables, the JW religion is one fulfillment of the Biblical warning in 2 Timothy 4:3-4.

By trying to get rid of God's requirement of an infinite amount of suffering for sin, the mistaken JW religion thinks that it has no need for Jesus to be fully God. Instead, the JW religion tries to claim that Jesus is only Michael the archangel, even though the Bible makes clear that Jesus isn't any angel, but God the Son (Hebrews 1:4-2:16).

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When the plain sense of a scripture makes sense, it may still have another sense which isn't so plain. For example, when Jesus said while standing in the temple, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" (John 2:19), it would make sense that he was referring to the temple. That's why the Jews understood him that way. But the plain sense of what Jesus said wasn't the true sense, for even though he was standing in the temple when he said it, he was actually making reference to the temple of his body (John 2:21). Even the disciples didn't understand that, until after his resurrection (John 2:22), for before his resurrection they didn't understand that Jesus had to die and be resurrected in three days (Luke 18:33-34).

So Christians should never fail to seek another sense to a scripture, even though it may seem plain on its face. For failing to seek that other sense could show that one is still lacking in understanding of some key doctrine.

Of course, any other sense which one may come to read into a seemingly-plain scripture cannot contradict any other scripture, for every scripture is infallible in doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16). Any doctrine which one may come to read into a seemingly-plain scripture must be in perfect accord with all other doctrines of the Bible.

One way that a Christian can wrongly try to get around scriptures that he or she doesn't like is to allegorize them, spiritualize them, historicize them, do anything to them so that he or she won't have to obey the plain sense of the scriptures (1 Thessalonians 4:2), or so that he or she can get free of a terrible fear that scriptures describing awful suffering could apply literally to him or her in the future (Philippians 1:29, 1 Peter 4:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).

 

[ThomasGuthler]

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Listening to the word 24/7 is wonderful; faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). But when people listen to someone speaking the Bible they're listening to that person's interpretation of it, for the tone of his voice and the emphasis he places on words can color the Bible with tones and emphases which aren't in the Bible itself. And if music and sound effects are added in the background, this can further add emotions and information which aren't in the Bible itself, and which may cause it to be misinterpreted.

No one can speak a word against interpretation because everyone interprets the Bible when he reads or listens to it. He may think that he's just reading or listening, but unconciously he's assuming what things mean; he's interpreting without realizing it.

We should always search the scriptures and dig through their texts to prove a point (Acts 17:11, 18:28, Isaiah 28:9-10). Our Bible studies should never follow familiar paths simply to prop up our own doctrinal positions, but should constantly be going down the paths of other doctrinal positions opposed to our own, to see if we're able to show in detail, from the scriptures themselves, exactly where they contradict the doctrine of the scriptures themselves (2 Timothy 3:16-4:4). We should also be able to answer in detail, from the scriptures themselves, every claim made by opposing doctrinal positions that our own positions contradict the scriptures, and be able to prove that in fact they don't. If we can't do these things, then we need to reconsider our doctrinal positions and change them until we can do these things.

Our faith will never get deeper if we never test our doctrinal positions to see if they can actually stand up to scrutiny. We may think that we're strengthening our own fortresses by following familiar paths in our Bible studies, but in doing so we may be strengthening fortresses that have foundations of sand. Our doctrinal positions could be based on nothing but mistaken human opinions.

If someone says that their life has changed by listening to the Bible, his interpretation of the Bible could still be mistaken. He could have unconsciously assumed what the Bible meant as he was listening to it, without ever testing his assumptions against opposing interpretations. He could claim to know what the word says, in his heart, yet forget that he who trusts in his own heart is a fool (Proverbs 28:26), and that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9). While his new, changed life could seem right to him, the end thereof could be the ways of death (Proverbs 14:12).

He could even think that his "knowing" what the word means came from Jesus himself, when in fact it came from a demon masquerading as Jesus (cf. 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Corinthians 11:14).

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Before we read any other books, we need to make sure that we've first read every word in the Bible (Matthew 4:4), over and over and over again until we've become very familiar with everything that the Bible teaches.

For everything that other books teach must always be tested against the Bible (Acts 17:11b). Anything that contradicts the Bible is false, because the Bible is infallible in doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16).

But if we don't yet know everything that the Bible teaches, how will we know if another book we're reading is true or false?

...

Because God alone is good (Luke 18:19, Revelation 15:4), his books alone are good; every book written by men will have to be checked against what the books of the Bible say (Acts 17:11), so why not start and remain with the books of the Bible? (2 Timothy 3:16-4:4, John 8:31).

 

[Bible2+]

Some good arguments against the blog's existence. (And also some contradictory arguments, such as whether or not to listen to recordings of people reading the Bible out loud.)

But hopefully people will take the current notes in the blog as just pointers to the referenced verses themselves regarding various subjects, and how these verses can be understood together in a coherent way, and how they can sometimes be misinterpreted in ways which contradict other verses.

Can you post 3 more old entries that aren't in the blog?

 

[ThomasGuthler]

Can you post 3 more old entries that aren't in the blog?

There are a few more, but I think the end is coming within the next days.

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Unbelievers have a better chance of escaping the clutches of the devil, and receiving God's gift ...

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...orship-their-god.7413330/page-3#post-53406619
(see also page 4 + 5)

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The Bible does give governments the police and judicial authority to employ violence against evildoers:

Romans 13:4 ... if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

To execute wrath against an evildoer with a sword would mean to kill the evildoer.

This doesn't require that we say that everything a government does it moral or right, for innocent people are sometimes killed by police by mistake, for example, if the police think a person is pointing a gun at them when in fact he's just holding a hair brush.

And even when people are tried and found guilty of a capital crime and have sat on death row for many years, new evidence can come to light which proves that in fact they are innocent. There is even a group of lawyers who run something called "The Innocence Project" who repeatedly have been able to prove that an innocent person is sitting on death row, and they get that person set free.

This is one of the biggest problems with the death penalty: innocent people can be killed because they get railroaded through the justice system by overzealous police, prosecutors, judges, and juries who are just chomping at the bit to quickly solve a horrible capital crime and see that the ultimate punishment is meted out.

So the very fact that a government can make mistakes is one very good reason for it never to employ the death penalty, even though it has the God-given right to do so.

And when we Christians are the government, for example, if we are sitting on a jury for a capital crime and must decide whether or not to vote for the death penality, we shouldn't vote for it, for as Christians we should extend God's mercy to the criminal instead of God's wrath, even if the criminal legally deserves death.

We should follow Jesus' example in dealing with criminals worthy of death:

John 8:3 ...And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

If we reject such mercy and are chomping at the bit to "mete out some justice!", then we should subsequently expect God to mete out His justice toward us for our own sins, instead of His mercy:

Matthew 7:1 ...Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged ...

Matthew 6:14 ... if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

We must never forget that we Christians were all under God's death penalty before He had mercy on us:

Romans 6:23 ...For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We should show people the same mercy that God has shown us:

Ephesians 4:32 ...be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

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Jesus has killed women and children as judgment for unrepentant sin (Revelation 2:21-23). And he will kill many unrepentant people at his second coming (Revelation 19:11-21).

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Rape was forbidden elsewhere (e.g. Deuteronomy 22:25). Torture, child abuse, and racism were all forbidden by the spirit of the Old Testament law and the prophets, which is summed up by Jesus' New Testament commandment to do unto others as we would have them do unto us (Matthew 7:12). Slavery does not have to be horrible in itself: slaves in ancient times could have it better than "wage slaves" and the starving poor in third world countries do today. The Bible commands kind treatment of slaves (Colossians 4:1), and not only permits but commands slaves to obtain freedom if they are able to (1 Corinthians 7:21).

Bearing false witness means lying about someone else to their harm (e.g. 1 Kings 21:13). Rahab was not condemned for saying something untrue which was not to anyone's harm, and which saved the lives to two men (Joshua 2:3-24, James 2:25).

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A Christian doesn't have to know ancient Hebrew or Greek in order to sufficiently understand the ideas that the Bible teaches, because the ideas that the Bible teaches can be, and have been, translated into every language. If there is ever a question whether the translation of a verse in the Bible correctly expresses the idea of the original Hebrew or Greek, there are plenty of interlinears (both printed and online) which show what the original Hebrew and Greek says, and plenty of dictionaries (both printed and online) showing the meanings of the ancient Hebrew and Greek words.

The original Hebrew and Greek of the Bible is more important than any translation, for the original Hebrew and Greek was inspired by God and is infallible in doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16). But this doctrine can be translated into any language, and what is important is the doctrine, not the language. The only reason the Old Testament was written in ancient Hebrew was because that was the most common language of believers during the time of the Old Testament, just as the only reason the New Testament was written in ancient Greek was because that was the most common language of believers during the time of the New Testament. Today, the most common language of believers is English, so if God were to inspire the writing of a Newer Testament today, he would probably have it written down in English. But there is no need for a Newer Testament, or for God to inspire it in English, for the Old Testament and New Testament already contain all of the doctrine that is needed for Christians to be saved and to be perfect (2 Timothy 3:15-17). And the doctrine of the Old Testament and New Testament has already been translated into English, not to mention every other language, so that all people throughout the world might know the whole Word of God for themselves (Matthew 4:4).

Just a note on making connections between single Greek words. We can't say that two scriptures must be referring to the same thing simply because they both use the same Greek word, for the same Greek word can refer to many different instances of something. For example, Revelation 13:18 refers to the coming Antichrist as a "man", anthropos in the Greek. Now we can't take the connection between the coming Antichrist and the word anthropos and go running off looking for other uses of anthropos so we can say they all must be referring to the coming Antichrist as well, for the word anthropos can refer to any man, no matter whether he's good or bad (Matthew 12:35).

So we have to focus on the context of an individual Greek word in a verse to determine what that word is actually referring to in that particular verse. Otherwise, we'll go off on a lot of wild goose chases, wild word chases, that won't end up teaching us anything, but will only serve to bring us confusion.

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When Revelation 12:10 says "Now is come salvation", it doesn't mean that "Now is come the rapture", just as when Luke 19:9 says "This day is salvation come", it doesn't mean that "This day is the rapture come". Instead, both Revelation 12:10 and Luke 19:9 are referring to particular instances of God's working out of His salvation of believers. Revelation 12:10 is simply when He will save believers from any further accusations from Satan before God in heaven.

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The scriptures themselves don't ever teach that Jesus is going to take us to the Father's house for the marriage, and we mustn't run after Jewish traditions which are not taught by the scriptures (Mark 7:13, Colossians 2:8). Just as Isaac didn't take Rebekah into his father's house, but into his mother's house (Genesis 24:67), and just as Jacob didn't take Leah or Rachel into his father's house, but married them in a far-away land (Genesis 29:23-28), so nothing requires that Jesus has to marry us in the Father's house, instead of in the sky (the first heaven) at His second coming (Revelation 19:7).

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When Paul was coming to Rome, the Christians in Rome didn't all just wait for him to arrive, but showed him honor by going out of Rome and as far south as The three taverns to meet him (Acts 28:14-16). When David was coming back to Jerusalem, the people in Judah didn't all just wait for him to arrive, but showed him honor by going out of their cities and as far east as the Jordan River to meet him (2 Samuel 19:15). When the leader of an important country comes to visit another country, the leader of the country being visited doesn't just wait in his office for the visiting leader to arrive at his office, but shows him honor by going out to the airport to meet him.

It will be exactly the same way at the second coming. The Christians still alive on the earth won't all just remain on the ground until Jesus lands on the earth (Zechariah 14:4). Instead, Jesus will be shown honor by angels being sent forth (Matthew 24:31) to catch up together all the Christians into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

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Malachi 1:11 prophesied the situation since the New Covenant salvation of the Gentiles (Acts 10:45), who offer up to God figurative incense and sacrifice continually all around the world (Psalms 141:2, Hebrews 13:15), not just in Jerusalem and Israel (John 4:21-24).

~

Romans 4:6 is referring to works of the Old Covenant law (Galatians 2:16), not to works of New Covenant faith (James 2:24, Titus 1:16, 1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6).

Romans 4:7 is quoting from Psalms 32:1, which refers to the fact that God forgave the sins of some individuals in the old testament, such as David (Psalms 32:5, 2 Samuel 12:13).

~

The letter of the law can represent performing outward actions which appear to be spiritual and righteous even without someone having any faith (Galatians 3:12a).

~

Keeping our doctrines according to the Spirit of the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2, Romans 8:2), not the letter (2 Corinthians 3:6), in no way means that we don't teach the letter at all (1 Thessalonians 4:2) or keep the letter at all (Colossians 3:5-9), but means that trying to teach and keep the letter without the Spirit will cause us and our hearers to lose salvation, while teaching and keeping the letter through the Spirit will cause us and others to keep salvation (1 Timothy 4:16, Romans 8:13).

~

Hebrews 10:17 is quoting from Jeremiah 31:34b, which shows that the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), who are Daniel's people: "my people Israel" (Daniel 9:20).

~

In Revelation 14:12, the commandments of God which are kept by those who have the faith of Jesus are the New Covenant commandments of God given to the church through Jesus at his first coming (John 14:21-24) and passed on to the church through the apostles (1 Thessalonians 4:2).

~

The first vial (or bowl) judgment (Revelation 16:2) has never happened. Revelation 13:15-18 has never happened.

The second vial (or bowl) judgment (Revelation 16:3) has never happened. Josephus' Wars of the Jews book 3 chapter 9 section 3 doesn't say that every living soul died in the sea, only that some people died in one small part of the sea.

The third vial (or bowl) judgment (Revelation 16:4-7) has never happened.

The fourth vial (or bowl) judgment (Revelation 16:8-9) has never happened [just as Revelation 8:7]. Josephus' Wars of the Jews book 3 chapter 4 section 1 doesn't say that the sun scorched men with fire and great heat, only that the Romans started some fires [in Galilee].

The fifth vial (or bowl) judgment (Revelation 16:10-11) has never happened [just as Revelation 8:12]. Josephus' Wars of the Jews book 3 chapter 4 section 1 doesn't say that the kingdom of the beast was full of darkness, or that they gnawed their tongues for pain.

The sixth vial (or bowl) judgment (Revelation 16:12-16) has never happened [just as Revelation 19:19-21 has never happened]. Neither Tacitus' Histories book 5 nor his Annals book 13 says that the Euphrates dried up to prepare the way for the kings of the east to cross and gather [with all of the other kings of the world] at Armageddon; or that three unclean spirits like frogs came out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet; or that these spirits of devils, working miracles, went forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) to the battle of that great day of God Almighty, which will occur at the second coming, when the Antichrist and all the armies of the world will attempt to fight Jesus, only to be utterly routed by him (Revelation 19:19-21). Tacitus' Histories book 5 only says that Titus got together some forces to fight Jerusalem, and Tacitus' Annals book 13 only says that Nero readied some forces in the east and ordered that some bridges be built over the Euphrates so that the Parthians might be attacked [to the east].

The seventh vial (or bowl) judgment (Revelation 16:17-21) has never happened. Neither Tacitus' Histories book 5 nor Josephus' Wars of the Jews book 5 chapter 1 or chapter 6 says that there came a great voice out of the temple in heaven (cf. Revelation 11:19, 14:17), from the throne of God [(cf. Revelation 4:2)], saying, "It is done"; or that there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings, and a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great that the great city was divided by the earthquake into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell; or that great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath; or that every island fled away, and the mountains were not found; or that there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent; or that men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, for the plague thereof was so bad. Tacitus' Histories book 5 only purports that a non-mortal voice came out of the earthly temple announcing that "the Gods" were departing, and Josephus' Wars of the Jews book 5 chapter 1 only says that there were three factions in Jerusalem, and chapter 6 only says that the Romans lobbed some large [(not hail)] stones into Jerusalem.

 

[ThomasGuthler]

--

Only baptized believers have been freed from bondage to sin and death (Romans 6:3-23).

Only believers who have been water-immersion baptized can freely choose whom they will serve (Romans 6:3-23).

Faith and water-immersion baptism into Christ's death and resurrection do restore spiritual life (Romans 6:3-11), and will restore physical life, even unto immortality, at the second coming of Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:23,52-53).

A believer is regenerated by water baptism (Romans 6:3-11, Acts 22:16, Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21) and by Holy-Spirit baptism (Titus 3:5, John 3:5-7, Acts 19:6, Acts 8:17, Mark 1:8).

... a person isn't regenerated first, in order to believe, but is regenerated after he is granted faith.

A person must believe before he can be regenerated, be born-again by water and the Spirit (Acts 2:38, Romans 6:3-11, Ephesians 1:13, Titus 3:5, John 3:5-7). But the unregenerate elect are still the elect even before they believe (Romans 11:28).

~

Quote: „Baptism [...] is necessary and is for those 18 years of age and older.“

A: Baptism is indeed necessary for salvation (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21), so that we would in no way want to keep it from any willing, believing child, no matter what his age, so long as he is found to be able to understand what sin is, what the gospel is (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and what baptism is for (Romans 6:3-11). If we (for no scriptural reason) refused to baptize him until he reached the age of 18, there would be no guarantee that he wouldn't die unbaptized before he reached the age of 18.

~

Q: There is no requirement that you be fully immersed to be baptized.

A: Actually there is, for we must be "buried" in the water of baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12). No one is "buried" by having some dirt merely sprinkled on his forehead. Also, note that the original Greek noun for "baptism" (baptismos) is derived from the original Greek verb for "baptize" (baptizo), which means to immerse, for it's derived from the original Greek verb "bapto", which means to cover wholly with a fluid.

Q: Certainly it was water, not dirt being used anyway.

A: Yes, but saying that having some water sprinkled on one's forehead is one being "buried" is no different than saying that a dead person can be buried in dirt by merely sprinkling some dirt on his forehead. It doesn't make sense.

~

Regarding a sinful inclination, it should be pointed out that everyone is conceived in the womb and born not only with a sinful inclination, but as actual sinners (Psalms 58:3, Psalms 51:5), because of original sin (Romans 5:19a).

A conscious decision by each individual is not required for original sin (Romans 5:18a,19a).

But original sin is not our only guilt because after we are born, during our lives we have all consciously decided to commit our own sins (Romans 3:23, 3:9-12).

So original sin is not our only guiltiness before God. So it becomes superfluous with regard to our guiltiness. So even if you could convince God to cancel original sin, it wouldn't make any difference: you would still have to answer for your own sins. So having a problem with original sin won't help you to escape God's judgment for sin. Only Jesus can help you (as all of us) with that: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23).

...

We inherited the disposition of sinfulness from Adam: "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" (Romans 5:19).

And so we inherited his condemnation: "by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation" (Romans 5:18).

~

The dividing of the waters in Genesis 1:6-10 simply refers to God's creation of the atmosphere, the sky, which divides the waters up in the rainclouds from the waters down in the seas.

Genesis 1:14-18 simply means that God set the sun and moon so that they would appear in the sky from the viewpoint of earth and shine their light upon the earth.

~

God punished Adam and Eve for eating the forbidden fruit because he had commanded them not to (Genesis 2:17).

Adam and Eve's fall into rebellion had nothing to do with eating per se, but with willfully eating one specific food which God had commanded them not to eat (Genesis 2:17, 3:11). They were allowed to freely eat all manner of other foods (Genesis 2:16). So the sin that brought about the fall of man (Romans 5:12) wasn't eating, but willful disobedience to God (Romans 5:19).

Adam and Eve did become mortal from eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17). God then posted Cherubims to keep Adam and Eve away from the tree of life (Genesis 3:24) so that Adam and Eve could not regain immortality by eating from the tree of life (Genesis 3:22).

God did know that there was virtually a 100% chance of them eventually eating the fruit, but not because they had no idea that eating the fruit was the wrong thing to do until they actually ate it, because they did know it was the wrong thing to do before they actually ate it, because God had commanded them not to eat it (Genesis 2:17).

God let them eat it because he allows humans free will. God could have originally assigned an as-yet-unfallen Lucifer to watch over Adam and Eve in a good sense, to be a "covering cherub" over Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-15). Lucifer could have then fallen into rebellion against God (Isaiah 14:12) and so become Satan (cf. Luke 10:18), and as his first rebellious act deceived Eve into disobeying God (Genesis 3).

Also, only Eve was deceived by Lucifer; Adam was not deceived (1 Timothy 2:14). But even if people sin because they are deceived by the devil, they are still responsible for their disobedience to God, because the devil cannot make anyone sin: human sin arises only from human free will (James 1:13-15).

God can never be disappointed in the sense of thinking that one thing will happen, only to see something else happen, precisely because of his omniscience: he knows beforehand how everything will happen, declaring the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). Nonetheless, this omniscience does not keep God from being able to feel grief when people wrongly employ their will to commit sin (Genesis 6:5-6).

~

Regarding [...] Isaiah 45:18, "The LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth", that could refer to the same event as Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", which could refer to God's original creation of the earth and its atmosphere billions of years ago.

~

It's incorrect to say that Irenaeus likes to use the word "seen" with reference to persons, but not for things (like visions), for Irenaeus likes to use the word "seen" with reference to visions:

"John has thus described in the Apocalypse: 'And the beast which I had seen was like unto a leopard...' " (Against Heresies 5:28:2)

"...the toes of the image seen by Nebuchadnezzar" (Against Heresies 5:26:1b).

"...the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel" (Against Heresies 5:26:1a).

"...seen in a prophetic manner" (Against Heresies 5:1:2b).

"...visions alone which were seen" (Against Heresies 4:20:12).

"...this man had seen the vision" (Against Heresies 4:20:10c).

"...what he saw in a dream" (Against Heresies 2:33:1c).

No internal evidence in Revelation, nor any external evidence, requires that John saw the book of Revelation before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Irenaeus says that John saw the book of Revelation "towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies 5:30:3c), which ended in 96 AD.

The main idea in that passage of Irenaeus is the vision, not "him": "the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies 5:30:3c).

The whole point of the passage is that if the church in the time of Irenaeus were meant to know the name of the Antichrist, the name would have been included in the vision of Revelation which had been seen by John and given to the church (Revelation 22:16) just shortly before the time of Irenaeus:

"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies 5:30:3c).

There's no proof of any mistranslation or textual corruption in this passage. [This testimony of Irenaeus has never been proven false, nor has it ever been proven that the phrase "that was seen" is a corruption of an original that read, "he was seen". If we go down that road, we can make the early church fathers say anything that we want, just by saying that anything that we disagree with is a "corruption", which we can then replace with whatever purportedly "original" statement we want.

Irenaeus could speak of "the most approved and ancient copies" of Revelation (Against Heresies 5:30:1), even if the original had been written "almost in our day", if by most "ancient" he simply meant the oldest. The original Greek (or oldest Latin translation) of the word translated into English as "ancient" would need to be shown in order to determine all the possible senses of that word. If Irenaeus wrote "Against Heresies" around, say, 180 AD, then even if Revelation had been written 115 years earlier, in 65 AD, even the original wouldn't have been "ancient" in the sense that we use the word "ancient", for we don't refer to books written in 1893 as "ancient".

And if Irenaeus could refer to the oldest copies of Revelation as "ancient", even though they might be only, say, 105 years old (if Revelation was written in 65 AD, and the oldest copies were made ten years later, and "Against Heresies" was written in 180 AD), then Irenaeus could refer to the oldest copies of Revelation as "ancient", even though they might be only, say, 75 years old (if Revelation was written in 95 AD, and the oldest copies were made ten years later, and "Against Heresies" was written in 180 AD).]

Irenaeus' saying earlier, regarding 666 (Revelation 13:18), "this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies, and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony" (Against Heresies 5:30:1), similarly focuses upon the vision itself, not John. The only reason John is mentioned in this case is as support for the accurate copying of the vision.

Clement of Alexandria's saying that the teaching "of the apostles, embracing the ministry of Paul, ends with Nero" (The Stromata, or Miscellanies 7:17:4) in no way requires that John saw Revelation in the time of Nero, for Clement could have rightly considered Revelation to be a subsequent teaching directly from the Lord himself (Revelation 1:1, 22:16) for which John was simply an amanuensis (Revelation 1:11,19).

When Clement of Alexandria says "... the Apostle John. For when, on the tyrant's death, he returned to Ephesus from the isle of Patmos" (Salvation of the Rich Man, 42:1), Clement could have been referring to the death of Domitian.

Nero wasn't the only person referred to as "the tyrant" in early Christian writings. For example, "The Encyclical Epistle of the Church at Smyrna Concerning the Martyrdom of the Holy Polycarp" refers to "the tyrant" (chapter 2c) in connection with the martyrdom of Polycarp circa 155 AD, some 100 years after the time of Nero.

Domitian was clearly a tyrant, for "The Martyrdom of Ignatius" refers "the many persecutions under Domitian", which Ignatius, "the disciple of John the apostle" had escaped (chapter 1). So John the apostle could have returned to Ephesus from Patmos after the death of Domitian.

Nothing Clement of Alexandria says regarding John the apostle subsequent to John's return to Ephesus from Patmos requires that John wasn't an old man. An old man could say "let a horse be brought me, and let some one be my guide on the way" (Salvation of the Rich Man, 42:3b). And after John is subsequently captured by some brigands and no doubt forced to dismount, Clement refers to John "forgetting his age" in trying to pursue their chief, and quotes John as saying "Why, my son, dost thou flee from me, thy father, unarmed, old? Son, pity me" (Salvation of the Rich Man, 42:3c). Then Clement again refers to John as "the old man" (Salvation of the Rich Man, 42:4).

~

Q: Do you believe that John actually saw what he describes in his visions?

A: Yes, or he may have sometimes just heard a verbal description given to him by the angel (e.g. Revelation 11:1b-10).

~

The problem with a prophetic "industry" is that it almost always involves payment or a request for payment for the prophetic teaching or fiction. Radio and TV airtime has to be paid for, and so broadcasts end with requests for money. The more listeners and viewers one can draw in, the more money will come rolling in, and so the incentive becomes to preach whatever will get the most listeners and viewers. This leads necessarily to a dumbing-down of the teaching, a lowest-common-denominator approach to prophecy, a tendency to echo whatever is the most popular, appealing teaching of the time.

And so prophetic teaching becomes a mere commodity. This is especially true with prophetic fiction. Whatever will excite and titillate the masses of evangelicals, thereby selling the most books, will be what the publishers will publish, regardless of whether or not the scenarios in the books are in line with what the scriptures themselves teach is going to happen.

But if we completely separate prophetic teaching from the collection of money, and always give it away free of charge (cf. "freely ye have received, freely give", Matthew 10:8), without ever even mentioning money, then there's no incentive, whether conscious or unconscious, to alter the teaching in order to gain the most "customers", and so make the most money (1 Timothy 6:10, 2 Peter 2:3).

One way to separate prophetic teaching from the collection of money is to simply post it free of charge onto a website. But what can happen is that even if no mention of money is made, the website can get Google to come in and set up advertising, whereby the website will get a few cents revenue every time someone clicks on an ad. As the revenue checks start coming in from Google, this can set up an insidious process whereby the website, whether consciously or unconsciously, will begin to do (or not do) whatever it takes to get more and more visitors to the website, and so get more and more clickers on its ads, and so get bigger and bigger revenue checks from Google.

The love of money is the root of all evil (1 Timothy 6:10). This is why it's so crucial to completely separate the gaining of money from any Christian preaching, and why Satan and the world work so hard to seduce every Christian ministry into becoming a money-making operation.

~

It's true that there's no point in trying to make the whole world a better place since it really is going to be ruined by the Antichrist soon (Revelation 13:4-18). So we should focus our energies in saving as many individuals as possible instead, before the Antichrist comes, and preparing the saved to face the coming tribulation with patience and faith, unto the end (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13).

Actually, the God-fearing, God-believing people won't prevent an all-out global new world order forming under the Antichrist, for he will be given power to wage war against the God-fearing, God-believing people, and overcome them (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).

The Luciferians know this already and can't wait for that day. One time a Christian was holding a sign in front of an abortion mill and some black-robed people appeared from around the corner and surrounded him and whispered menacingly something to the effect of: "Our time is coming! We will get to kill all you Christians! We will sacrifice your little ones! You all are doomed! Every last one of you! And your pathetic little god won't be able to do anything to help you! Ha! Ha! Ha! Long live Lord Lucifer! Long live our God!"

That is just a taste of what Christians will have to face during the Antichrist's reign, when the whole world will worship Lucifer the dragon (Revelation 13:4).

We really need to prepare ourselves to keep the faith during that time (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13) and not get so fearful of death that we will deny God in order to save our lives (Mark 8:35) and the lives of our little ones (Matthew 10:37). Better to be killed and go be with the Lord in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23) than deny Him and go to hell and everlasting torment (Matthew 10:28, Revelation 14:9-14).

Soon the world won't see that the Christians and others who spoke out against the looming NWO were right all along, for the world, as even many Christians, will see the NWO as a good thing, bringing peace and economic stability to the world.

The world won't even have a problem when the NWO begins mandating the worship of the dragon (Lucifer/Satan) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4,8), and a living, speaking image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and mandating the receiving of the mark of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:16-18). For the world will be afraid and hungry during the coming tribulation, and it will be the Antichrist and his NWO which will comfort the world and feed and take care of the world, while YHWH will be reviled as uncaring, cruel, and vengeful, a petty little tyrant god (cf. Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

 

[Bible2+]

ThomasGuthler said in post 106:

There are a few more, but I think the end is coming within the next days.

Thank you for all that you have posted.

Regarding the 2nd entry of post #106, I hope to add parts of it to new 1st and 2nd sections under *Rom. 13:4, and to a new 2nd section under *Jn. 14:1.

Regarding the 3rd entry, I hope to add parts of it to new (5th to 10th) sections under *Rev. 1:1, and move the 2nd-to-last section under *Mt. 24:31 (the section about Irenaeus' dating of Revelation) down into those new sections.

Also regarding the 3rd entry, I hope to add a part of it as a new (prophetic industry) section under *Rev. chs. 6-22, after the *newspaper sections (note also minor changes to the 2nd *newspaper section).

--

Thank you for helping me to make these additions to the blog.

Can you post 3 more entries that aren't yet in the blog?

 

[ThomasGuthler]

More entries, at least for the moment no more links.


--

While modern day Turkey doesn't fit perfectly with the churches of Asia (Revelation 1:11), Thyatira (Revelation 2:24-25), for example, still exists today as a city: the Turks call it "Akhisar". And it could very well still contain some believers.

~

The four beasts do not just speak to God the one quote given by John (Revelation 4:8b), but speak to God other, unquoted things as well, which give him glory, honor, and thanks (Revelation 4:9); and they do not start worshipping God when John arrives in heaven, but have been worshipping God like that for untold ages past (cf. Isaiah 6:1-3).

~

If sin is a crime against God (Psalms 51:4), and God is an infinite being (1 Kings 8:27), then sin is an infinite crime, worthy of an infinite punishment.

An eternity of torture, an infinite amount of suffering over time, isn't impossible for a finite man to deserve; with God all things are possible (Luke 18:27).

To torture people is actually wrong for humans because they have no right to do it, but it's not wrong for God (Revelation 14:10-11), because he has the right to do it as a form of divine punishment for sin (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15). A human analogy would be capital punishment. An individual human has no right to go out as a vigilante and execute criminals, but human government does have the right to execute criminals, which right is given to it by God (Romans 13:4).

~

… the Hebrew word translated as "consuming" in Deuteronomy 4:24 doesn't mean completely destroying or consuming, for it is used to refer to some people being "devoured" by fire (Leviticus 10:2), and yet even their bodies remained in existence (Leviticus 10:5); they weren't annihilated.

~

1 Corinthians 6:2 pertains to the church's judging of the world [and angels] during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29), judging in the sense of ruling, like the judges (rulers) in the book of Judges.

~

Luke 11:51 could include the figurative generation of the wicked of all times (Luke 16:8), for in the parallel verse of Matthew 23:35, the "you" upon whom the judgment will come includes the figurative "you" who slew Zechariah (2 Chronicles 24:21). Jesus will judge the wicked of all times at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) after the millennium and battle of Gog and Magog (Revelation 20:7-10).

~

The rebellion after the millennium is over is the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), after which will come the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which Jesus refers to in Matthew 13:39-43 as happening at "the end of the world"; the Greek word translated as "world" is "aion", from which we get our English word "aeon", and which means "age".

~

Psalms 75:2 refers to Jesus' judgment of the church (2 Corinthians 5:10-11, Romans 14:10-12, Luke 12:47-48) at the second coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), which won't happen until after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-27, Revelation 19:7-21).

Regarding Psalms 75:3: "The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved", this refers to what will happen after the millennium and a subsequent event, at the great white throne judgment:

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away" (Revelation 20:11).

"... the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" (Revelation 21:1).


~

Philippians 2:10-11 could be fulfilled physically at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which won't occur until after the millennium (Revelation 20:4-15), while Revelation 5:13 could occur in some mysterious spiritual manner shortly before the tribulation begins. For the context of Revelation 5:13 shows that it will occur while Jesus is still in heaven, before the tribulation begins, when Jesus first takes in hand the still-unsealed book with seven seals

...

It's possible that Revelation 5:13 is different than Philippians 2:10-11, because Revelation 5:13 doesn't refer to every knee bowing and every tongue confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philippians 2:10-11), and Philippians 2:10-11 doesn't refer to everything saying "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever" (Revelation 5:13).

...

Revelation 5:13 could happen in some mysterious, spiritual way, right when its context shows it will happen: shortly before the tribulation begins (Revelation 5:1-6:4).

When Revelation 5:13 occurs, evil folk may not even be conscious that they are doing it in their spirit.

~

"As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground" (John 18:6). Here all the evil folk fell to the ground automatically because their spirits were forced to acknowledge, if only for an instant, who Jesus was.

But their conscious minds did not acknowledge him; that's why they just got right back up and arrested him anyway. If you had asked them: "Why are you arresting the guy you just fell down in worship before?", they would have probably answered something like: "We don't know why we fell down. Why do you claim that we worshipped him? Are you one of his followers? If you say, Yes, we'll arrest you too!"

~

[*Revelation 21:1 / *Rev. 21:1]

But the new surface of the earth will be radically different than the current one, for the new surface will not have any oceans (Revelation 21:1), or at least no more Mediterranean Sea. And if there are no oceans to serve as heat sinks, the new atmosphere would have to be radically different if the earth is to avoid becoming overheated during the day and in summer, and overcold at night and in winter.

~

Jesus will fulfill 1 Chronicles 17:12 physically during the coming millennium, when he will build a literal temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 6:12-13, 14:20-21), and literally sit upon David's earthly throne and rule as King forever (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7). Because the millennium won't be forever, this means that David's earthly throne will continue on the new earth (Revelation 21:1).

… Solomon's throne wasn't established forever: he died, and his dynasty died out as well. Jesus isn't going to sit on Solomon's throne, but David's throne (Luke 1:32), nor is Jesus the son of Solomon, but the son of David (Matthew 1:1) through David's son Nathan (Luke 3:31b), not David's son Solomon, whose kingly line became cursed so that no descendant of Jehoiachin can ever sit upon David's throne (Jeremiah 22:30).

~

If a person in the church has an incurable illness or handicap, but they haven't died by the time of the second coming, their body will be changed into immortality at the same moment that those in the church who died will be resurrected (1 Corinthians 15:51-53). And if God will bring the dead bodies of those in the church back to life, that is, "cure" them from death, then he certainly will cure and remove all handicaps from all those in the church who will still be alive at the second coming.

~

1 Corinthians 15:46 refers to the chronological order of Adam and the incarnation and resurrection of Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:45), not to the chronological order of faith and eternal life.

~

1 Corinthians 15:23b,52-58 is speaking only of the resurrection of believers at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:16); only believers get victory over death (1 Corinthians 15:56-57, John 3:36).

No man except Jesus has received the victory over physical death; that's why all men still physically die. And only the church will receive the victory over physical death at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 15:23,52-55). After the millennium, the unsaved will be raised only to be cast into the second physical death (Revelation 20:15, 21:8).

All things being subdued to Christ and then the Father doesn't mean that all things will be saved, for the devil, the fallen angels, and all unsaved humans will be subdued to Christ and the Father by being cast into the eternal torment of the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10,15, 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46).

"That God may be all in all" doesn't mean that the Father is going to live inside the devil, the fallen angels, and all unsaved humans. Instead, it's just an idiomatic way of saying that God the Father will be all important to all creatures, whether they're saved or in eternal torment.

~

If Jesus was raised by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11a) and Christians will be raised by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11b), then the unelect could also be raised by the Holy Spirit. [But believers will be raised into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53), while unbelievers will be raised to be cast into the second death (Revelation 20:13,15).] But the unelect will still be raised only to be damned, in "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

~

Acts 2:29 doesn't mean that the souls of dead believers aren't in heaven, where some are seen in Revelation 6:9-11 (see also Hebrews 11:13, 12:22-23). Instead, Acts 2:29 is simply referring to David's still-unresurrected dead body having seen corruption, so that Acts 2:27 was a prophecy regarding Jesus (Acts 2:31), not David.

~

Mark 12:26-27 doesn't mean that all of the dead have already received their immortal bodies from our point of view of time, but that from God's point of view of time, which encompasses all time at once, the resurrection of all believers is a present reality.

~

When believers are resurrected they will be unmarried, like the angels in heaven are unmarried (Matthew 22:30). This unmarried state requires celibacy, for sex outside of marriage is the sin of fornication.

Celibacy is not the same thing as not having the ability to take on sex organs. The unfallen angels in heaven can be unmarried and celibate (Matthew 22:30) while still having the ability to take on sex organs. Before the flood of Noah, the angels who fell by having sex and children with humans (Genesis 6:2-8) committed a grievous sin (2 Peter 2:4-5, Jude 1:6-7).

Matthew 22:30 doesn't say that resurrected believers can't reproduce, but only implies that they won't, for they won't marry, but be like the unfallen angels in heaven. But even angels can marry mortals and reproduce if they are willing to fall in doing so (Genesis 6:2,4, Jude 1:6-7; 2 Peter 2:4).

~

Jesus created everything (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17). Why is it that many believers think of only God the Father as the Creator?

Jesus Christ is not only in charge of everything in heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18), but as God the Word is also the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3).

Even now as a flesh and bones human being (John 1:14, Luke 24:39, 1 John 4:3, 1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 2:16-17, Hebrews 7:24-26), Jesus Christ is currently in heaven ruling over everything in heaven and earth (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).

~

… and God has to exist in some dimension of time because without time there can be no change, no action performed, such as God creating the Big Bang singularity by his eternal power (Romans 1:20).

God isn't outside of time in the sense that there is time even in heaven where God sits on His throne:

Revelation 8:1 ...there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God ...

God is outside of time in the sense that the space-time continuum of this universe was created by God:

John 1:3 ...All things were made by him ...

~

The Greek word translated as "earth" in Romans 10:18 can refer to the globe (Matthew 6:10, 11:25, 28:18). Romans 10:18 is quoting Psalms 19:4, which involves not just the Roman Empire, but the entire globe knowing of God's existence as Creator by the evidence of the sky and all that it contains (Psalms 19:1-4, cf. Romans 1:20).

~

Note that flesh and blood can enter into heaven, for Enoch and and Elijah were taken alive into heaven (Hebrews 11:5, 2 Kings 2:11), and Paul said that he could have been caught up bodily into heaven at one point (2 Corinthians 12:2). And Isaiah's corruption was cleansed when he was taken bodily into heaven at one point (Isaiah 6).

...

There's also the possibility of temporary out-of-body experiences whereby one's soul goes into heaven without one's body dying, for when Paul the apostle was temporarily caught up into heaven while he was still alive, he said that it could have been out of his body (2 Corinthians 12:2-7). John the apostle's temporary visit to heaven while he was still alive (Revelation 4:1-2) could likewise have been an out-of-body experience.

This is not to say that all of the out-of-body experiences claimed by people today are real. Some of them could simply be vivid dreams, and the ones that involve people visiting some "Akashic Hall of Records" or other planets, where they are taught "mysteries" and "revelations" which contradict the Bible, are clearly demonic deceptions, or just highly-imaginative drug or sickness-induced hallucinations or dreams by people who are unaware of what the Bible teaches, or who have consciously rejected what it teaches so that they can pursue their own lusts with less guilt and fear (2 Timothy 4:3-4, 1 Timothy 4:1-2).

Those unbelievers who have given themselves wholly over to (what they call) "spirit guides" or "angels" or "ascended masters" who "guide them in wondrous out-of-body adventures in the spiritual and planetary realms", are the dupes of demonic forces, who can lead them into any sort of charade they want (2 Corinthians 11:14), so long as it keeps them from ever accepting Biblical teachings and getting saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Galatians 1:4-9, 2 Corinthians 11:3-4,13-15).

~

Psalms 85:13 means that God can set people in the way of righteousness, not that He will force them against their will to remain in that way (2 Peter 2:15,21). Believers can still willfully commit sin, and so lose their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29).

~

Psalms 90:8 refers to sins which we commit in secret, not sins which we are unaware of. If people are truly saved, yet commit a sin, even if they are unaware of it, Jesus will send warning and chastisement to them to make certain that they know that they need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-8), and will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21). But if they waste that time and ignore the warning […].

~

Regarding Isaiah 1:17 and 1:23, their context shows that works are required for salvation (Isaiah 1:19-20).

The rewards sought by the wicked in Isaiah 1:23 are not rewards from God, but bribes from men.

~

In Ezekiel 36:27, the original Hebrew word translated as " 'cause' you to walk in my statutes" can be translated as " 'grant' [cf. Job 10:12] you to walk in my statutes", in the sense that if Christians choose to walk in the Spirit, God will grant them the ability not to fulfill the lust of the flesh (Galatians 5:16). But if Christians choose instead to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19) and commit sin without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Romans 8:13).

~

Hosea 6:6 simply means that works performed without love for others or knowledge of God are worthless to God, not that works of faith performed with love for others and with knowledge of God aren't required for salvation (2 Peter 1:5-11).

~

Matthew 22:1-13 is only a parable, which means that we are not to get hung up on any of its details, but focus on the message that the parable is trying to convey: God allows all sorts of people to get saved, but they can subsequently lose their salvation if they fall into willful, unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), so that they are not found wearing the figurative wedding garment of righteousness (Revelation 19:8).

If we try to latch onto every detail of Matthew 22:1-13, we will run into problems right away, for we would have people making it into the Father's house in heaven but then being subsequently cast out, as if the Father didn't know who was in unrepentant sin until they got all the way into heaven and were already at the wedding. We would, in light of another parable (Matthew 25:1-13), have both the wise and foolish virgins making it into the wedding, and then the foolish ones being subsequently cast out of the wedding. We would have contradicting messages in two different parables. That's why we can't latch onto the details of the various parables: the details contradict each other. So we have to take a step back and instead look for the common message that all the parables are trying to convey: we have to be ready and righteous for Jesus' return.

~

Jesus preached about three types of true, saved Christians, all three types starting out as true, saved Christians, but only one type ending up as true, saved Christians (Luke 8:13-15, Romans 2:7, Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 3:6, 6:4-8, 10:26-29).

We can't translate that to mean that only about 33% of those who start out as true, saved Christians will end up as true, saved Christians, for Jesus didn't say that the three types of true, saved Christians are evenly distributed. It could be that only about 10% of those who start out as true, saved Christians will end up as true, saved Christians.

~

Luke 12:36 is only a parable; it's not referring to the actual marriage of Revelation 19:7, just as the parable of Matthew 22:11-13 isn't referring to the actual marriage of Revelation 19:7. And the details of those two parables contradict another parable with a marriage: Matthew 25:10. And yet all three parables contain a lesson applicable to those in the Church.

So what we have to do is not try to latch onto the contradictory details of the parables (e.g., do the wicked make it into the wedding and then get cast out, as in Matthew 22:13, or do they never even make it into the wedding at all, as in Matthew 25:10-12?), but take a step back and see what is a common lesson applicable to those in the Church which all three of the parables convey: those in the Church must remain spiritually ready and righteous for Jesus' second coming (Luke 12:40, Matthew 25:13), for if they fall into unrepentant sin, and so are no longer wearing the symbolic wedding-clothes of righteousness (Revelation 19:8b, cf. 16:15), they will lose their salvation at the second coming (Matthew 22:13, 24:51, 25:12, 7:21-23, Luke 12:39, Matthew 24:43).

The lesson of all three of the parables of Luke 12:36, Matthew 22:11, and Matthew 25:10, is applicable to those in the Church, which will have already existed for some 2,000 years by the time of the second coming. We can't pretend that only the parable of Matthew 25:10 is applicable to those in the Church, while the other two parables are not, for if the lesson of one of the three parables is applicable to those in the Church, then the lesson of all three of the parables is applicable to those in the Church, for all three parables are teaching the same lesson.

~

John 1:13 means that our initial salvation comes solely by the will of God, not that it takes away our free will, which we must employ to cooperate with God until the end if we wish to obtain eternal salvation (Matthew 24:13, 7:21, Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:7).

Our growth in Christ is not apart from our free will; we must employ our free will to actively and diligently pursue growth in Christ (2 Peter 1:5-11, Philippians 2:12, 3:13-14).

~

John 3:3 doesn't contradict that to be saved is to be born, again (John 3:7, 1 Peter 1:23-25, 1 Peter 2:2). Also, John 3:3 doesn't give the assurance that every individual who has been born again (saved) will necessarily see the kingdom of God. All John 3:3 does it set the requirement that in order to see the kingdom of God, one must be born again (saved).

~

John 6:39 is referring only to those whom God has given to Jesus, meaning only those who are Jesus' sheep, and not all men are Jesus' sheep, so that not all men can believe in Jesus (John 10:26). So John 6:39 is referring only to believers, just as John 6:40 is referring only to believers.

The original Greek of John 6:39 reads "all which he has given me I shall not lose of it", the singular it meaning all the singular flock of believers (John 6:40, John 10:16). Not all men are of Jesus' flock (John 10:26).

The "it" in John 6:39 is the "no thing" lost by Christ, which is the individual believer (John 6:39-40).

Everyone who believes in Jesus may have eternal life (John 6:40), but whether they have it ultimately will depend on whether or not they obey Jesus (Hebrews 5:9).

 

[ThomasGuthler]

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The Bible doesn't say when Jesus, as a man, first knew that he is the Son of God (John 10:36), but Mary could have told him as a young boy of his virgin birth (Luke 1:35). At least by the age of 12 Jesus had full knowledge of his Sonship (Luke 2:42-50).

~

Also, fasting can help us to break through into new and deeper understanding. A most powerful fast is three days and nights (72 hours) with no food and no water. And dedicate the fast in prayer to God and ask for his wisdom and understanding of his word. If we diligently seek God and his word, he will not fail to open it up to us (James 1:5, Luke 24:45).

~

John 17:24 doesn't require that the rapture take us into the third heaven, for John 17:24 could have three other fulfillments: first, we go to be with Jesus in his glory in heaven when we die (2 Corinthians 5:8); second, we will be caught up to be with Jesus in the sky at his glorious second coming (Matthew 24:30-31); third, we will be with Jesus on the earth during his glorious millennial reign (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

~

Romans 8:23-25 isn't referring to the false hope of a pre-trib rapture, but to the true hope of our bodily resurrection or changing into immortality, which will occur at the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23,51-53, Revelation 20:4-6). The patience referred to in Romans 8:25 includes the patience of the Church during the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13).

~

Romans 15:13 isn't referring to the false joy, the false peace, and the false hope of a pre-trib rapture, but to the true joy, the true peace, and the true hope that believers have even if they have to go through tribulation (1 Peter 4:12-13; 2 Corinthians 7:4b, Romans 12:12, John 16:33; 2 Corinthians 1:4).

~

Actually, what John experienced in Revelation 4:1 isn't similar to what the church will experience on the day of the rapture, for John went all the way into the third heaven, whereas the church will go only as high as the clouds to meet Jesus in the air on his way down to the earth at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). And in Revelation 4:1, John was alone, whereas at the rapture, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (1 Thessalonians 4:17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31). And Revelation 4:1 happened to John more than 1,900 years before the tribulation, whereas the rapture of the church won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

~

Revelation 9:20 doesn't require that there won't be any believers on the earth at the sixth trumpet, for it could mean that the rest of the unbelievers won't repent; just as Revelation 13:3-10 means that all of the non-elect unbelievers will worship the dragon and the Antichrist, not that all of the believers and elect unbelievers still alive on the earth at that time will worship the dragon and the Antichrist.

~

Leviticus 8 teaches nothing regarding a week of years, but only a literal seven-days-and-nights period (Leviticus 8:35) which could have been a foreshadowing of a literal seven-days-and-nights period in which the Church, clothed in its ultimate Bridal clothes of righteousness after the tribulation (Revelation 19:7-8), at the second coming, will remain in the tabernacle which will have been placed over the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 4:6). This could occur after the rapture and marriage of the Church in the sky, when the Church has descended back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) to have the marriage feast in the earthly Jerusalem (Revelation 19:9, Isaiah 25:6-9, cf. 1 Corinthians 15:54).

The "seven" days of consecration of Leviticus 8:33 could have simply typified the "complete" consecration which the Church has already undergone through the death of Jesus ("For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified", Hebrews 10:14), for the Hebrew word translated as "seven" is derived from a word which means "to be complete".

At the same time, the seven days of the priests remaining in the earthly tabernacle in Leviticus 8:33 could also have typified seven literal days in which the Church will remain in the earthly tabernacle of Isaiah 4:5-6. That is, the Church could remain in this earthly tabernacle (which will be spread over the earthly Jerusalem, the earthly mount Zion) for seven days, during the great feast in the earthly Jerusalem which will be connected with the second coming and the resurrection of the Church (Isaiah 25:6-9; cf. 1 Corinthians 15:54, quoting from Isaiah 25:8).

The earthly feast of Isaiah 25:6-9 connected with the resurrection of the Church could also be the wedding supper of the Church which will take place on the earth after the tribulation, which is when the wedding of the Church to the Lamb Jesus will take place (Revelation 19:7-9). Even the carrion birds on the earth will be fed at this marriage supper, after the second coming (Revelation 19:17-21). The birds could feast on the carcasses of the wicked while the Church feeds on "a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6).

And because this feast on the earth will be "the marriage supper of the Lamb" (Revelation 19:9), it could last for seven literal days on the earth, just as marriage feasts in the Bible could last seven literal days, like the one when Samson took a woman to be his wife (Judges 14:7-12). The week in Genesis 29:21-28 could also refer to the literal seven days of a marriage feast.

A literal seven-day marriage-of-the-Lamb feast on the earth at the second coming could at the same time have been typified by the literal seven-day feast of tabernacles of the Mosaic law:

"Thou shalt observe the feast of tabernacles seven days" (Deuteronomy 16:13).

~

Isaiah 59:17-20 will be fulfilled at the second coming (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-21, 12:10-14, Isaiah 4:4) [when he'll land by Jerusalem/Zion (Zechariah 14:4) and then save all of the unsaved elect Jews (Romans 11:26, Zechariah 12:10-14)].

~

Isaiah 61:1-2a was fulfilled at Jesus' first coming (Luke 4:18-21).

Isaiah 61:2b-9 refers to the still-unfulfilled second coming and subsequent millennium.

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Isaiah 66:5-18 also refers to the still-unfulfilled second coming.

Isaiah 66:18b refers to representatives from all nations coming up to Jerusalem to see Jesus during the millennium (Isaiah 2:1-4).

~

In Ezekiel 16:49, the Hebrew word translated as "abundance" of idleness doesn't have to refer to the abundance of hours not spent working in a work week.The Hebrew word translated as "abundance" can be translated as "prosperity" (Jeremiah 22:21), so that Ezekiel 16:49 could be referring to an idleness that is connected with prosperity.

~

Ezekiel 28:24-26 could be fulfilled at the second coming (Zechariah 14:2-21).

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Hosea 6:2-3 will be fulfilled at the second coming (Zechariah 14:4-21, 12:10-14, Romans 11:26), which won't happen until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

Hosea 6:3 means that Jesus' second coming will be such a blessing that it will like both the blessing of the literal former rain and the blessing of the literal latter rain together.

Jeremiah 5:24 and Joel 2:23-24 refer to literal rains that helped the literal crops of Israel to grow.

~

Obadiah 1:15 could refer to the retribution-part of the second coming (Revelation 19:11-21).

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In Micah 5:5, "this man" is the returned Jesus, whose first-coming birth had just been referred to in Micah 5:2.

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Zephaniah 2:3 isn't referring to the Day of the Lord, for that won't begin until after the vials of wrath of Revelation 16, at the second coming (Revelation 19:11-21).

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Zephaniah 3:8 is the second coming (Revelation 19:15,19-21). Zephaniah 3:9-20 is all of mortal elect Israel still alive on the earth at the start of the millennium, after they have all been saved at the second coming, when they see Jesus (Romans 11:26-29, Zechariah 12:10-14).

~

Zechariah 13:1 refers to the New Covenant salvation (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15) which will be brought to all of the elect unbelieving Jews at the second coming (Romans 11:26-31), when they will see the physically-returned Jesus (Zechariah 13:6, 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) and come into faith in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will become part of the church at that time, just as saved Jews have always become part of the church (1 Corinthians 1213), for there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

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In Zechariah 14:5, "the LORD my God" is YHWH, who is the God of the church, for Jesus was quoting from Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18b in Mark 12:29-30; and Jesus himself is YHWH (cf. John 10:11 & Psalms 23:1, Luke 18:19; Zechariah 14:3-4), one with the Father (John 10:30).

~

Malachi 4:1 will also be fulfilled at the second coming (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

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"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul" (Acts 16:14). This means that the Father had to open Lydia's heart before she was able to attend to the words of Paul.

~

Luke 17:22 refers to the period after Jesus' ascension (Acts 1:9) and before his second coming (Acts 3:21).

Luke 17:23 refers to people mistakenly thinking that Jesus has already returned and is living in some certain place on the earth (Matthew 24:23-26).

Luke 17:24 refers to the unmistakable nature of the true second coming of Jesus, when everyone on the earth will see him coming in the clouds with power and great glory (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30).

Luke 17:25 refers to Jesus, at the time Luke 17:25 was spoken, having yet to be crucified for our sins (Matthew 20:18-19, 26:28).

Luke 17:26-30 means that the unsaved world will be just as surprised by what will actually happen at the second coming, as the unsaved world was surprised by the flood in the days of Noah actually happening.

People will still have to eat and drink during the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18, no matter how bad it gets, and people still get married even in the worst of times. If people want to eat they have to plant, and if they want shelter they have to build.

Luke 17:26-30 simply means that even right near the end of the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18, people will still be going about their lives, trying to survive as always, without any expectation that Jesus is about to return in wrath (Revelation 19:15) to destroy them (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

The Noah and Lot analogies in Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 aren't referring to a pre-trib and pre-wrath rapture, but to what will happen at the second coming of Jesus, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37b,39b), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), when Jesus will bring the second-coming day of wrath/day of the Lord (Zephaniah 1:14-15, 1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) upon the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

Luke 17:31-33 means that Christians mustn't cling to their stuff and their mortal lives at the second coming, instead of setting their sights wholly upon the returning Jesus and the hope of immortal life (Titus 2:13, 1:2, 3:7).

Luke 17:34-37 means that at the second coming some unbelievers will be killed and taken to where birds will eat their dead bodies (Matthew 24:28, Revelation 19:21, cf. Job 39:27,30), while other unbelievers will be left alive. They'll be forced to worship Jesus during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), and will be ruled over with a rod of iron by Jesus and the church (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:10, 20:4-6).

 

[ThomasGuthler]

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Our spiritual warfare against Satan and his demons indeed involves our thoughts (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12).

Regarding Satan feeding lies into our minds, he certainly does that. But he also often feeds just images into our minds rather than lies expressed in words. For example, if he wants to tempt us to commit a sinful act, instead of whispering into our minds the words "Do that act; won't it feel good to do that act", he will often just place an image of the sinful act in our minds and then sit back and see how we react to it. If we hold onto the sinful image, which is an idol (1 John 5:21) and have desire for it and let it begin to inspire our own lust within us, then Satan doesn't have to do anything else: our own lust will then entice us into committing the sinful act (James 1:14).

But if we immediately cast down the sinful image (the idol) in our imagination and bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5), we immediately cut off Satan's power of temptation at its root, which is images, idolatry. We must not give ourselves any time to gaze upon his images, his idols, and then desire them, until we become driven by our own lust to act them out.

But someone could say, "Yeah, right. Easier said then done. You have no idea of the power of the sinful images which Satan and his demons feed into my mind. It's a constant, continual barrage until I give in. If I try to fight it I can't do anything else: it takes all of my mental power just trying to beat down the sinful images in my mind and the constant craving for the sinful act that they picture. My trying to fight back against the temptation just wears me out; I eventually become totally helpless before it. It always wins in the end. I'm like its slave. It cracks the whip and I obey. Every. Single. Time".

If this is the case with someone, then they truly are a slave to their sin. They must remember these words of our Lord Jesus Christ:

"Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed" (John 8:34-36).

When we are barraged with temptation, we need to think "Free. I am free. Jesus has made me free", and we need to pray "Lord Jesus, free me from this sin, this idolatry, this temptation, this lust, these sinful images in my mind, that I may no longer be a slave to sin". And Jesus will free us from them. They will cease. The struggle will melt away. And we can then serve Him by performing some righteous act instead of the sin (Romans 6:18).

So we can only win against Satan and his demons if we take constant control of our sinful thoughts and bring them all immediately to Jesus (2 Corinthians 10:5), and bring Jesus into all of our thoughts (Psalms 10:4). He will then set us free from our sinful thoughts (John 8:34-36) and strengthen our righteous thoughts (Romans 6:18). He's the only one who can save us from our sin (1 John 3:5-10).

~

While some angels could be purely spirit, other angels have fleshly bodies, so that, for example, they can eat and drink (Genesis 18:8), and physically grasp the hands of people they're trying to lead to safety (Genesis 19:16). They can even make just part of their physical body become visible, for example, in order to write a message upon a wall (Daniel 5:5). The way they could do this while keeping the rest of their body invisible (not to mention keeping their bodies entirely invisible most of the time) would be if their bodies are able to access "higher" spatial dimensions.

Mortal human eyes exist in only three spatial dimensions, so they can see objects only in these dimensions. Any object in "higher" spatial dimensions could move into the view of mortals by simply moving "down" (whether partly or wholly) into the three spatial dimensions visible to mortals.

An analogy would be a race of creatures which existed in only two spatial dimensions, say, on the surface of a piece of paper. Anything above the surface of the paper would be invisible to them, for their eyes would exist in only two spatial dimensions. Humans existing in three spatial dimensions could look down and watch the two-dimensional creatures without the two-dimensional creatures knowing that they are being watched. But a human could make his presence known to them by placing the tip of his or her finger onto the surface of the paper: the two dimensional creatures would then be able to see the surface of the fingertip, which would seem to them to have suddenly appeared out of nowhere.

This is similar to how Jesus just appeared out of nowhere to the apostles after his resurrection. They were in a locked room when Jesus suddenly stood in their midst (John 20:26). The way he could have done this is if his resurrected physical body had obtained the ability (like the angels) to enter into "higher" spatial dimensions. A locked room would pose no more problem to him than a square drawn on a piece of paper would pose to someone who wanted to suddenly reach down and place his or her fingertip in the midst of that square. And once any two-dimensional creatures living in that square saw the fingertip, it could then vanish from view by simply being lifted off the page, just as Jesus had the ability to make himself suddenly vanish from view after his resurrection (Luke 24:31).

So an immortalized, resurrected, fleshly human body, like a fleshly angelic body, doesn't have to be restricted to what we might think of as the physical spatial dimensions. It could have free access to what we might think of as spiritual spatial dimensions, "higher" than those which we in still-mortal bodies can currently see. So we don't have to think that receiving an immortal fleshly body at the resurrection will in any way keep us out of the spiritual realm, will in any way keep us from becoming equal unto the angels in heaven.

There is a teaching of gnosticism which is very dangerous, and which will be revived worldwide by the Antichrist: he will teach that Christ isn't flesh (1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7). He could teach this for the same reason that the gnostics in the first century taught it: they thought that flesh was evil in itself, and that only pure spirit was good. Of course, this is contradicted by the Bible, which shows that God can create fleshly creatures which are very good (Genesis 1:31). Indeed, God himself has become flesh in Jesus (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3), and Jesus is wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15b). So there is nothing evil about flesh in itself.

Satan could inspire the Antichrist to revive the gnostic teaching against flesh because Satan hates human beings. God could have purposely gone out of his way to create humans out of dirt (Genesis 2:7) precisely to rankle Satan's pride. Before he rebelled against God, Satan (as Lucifer) could have begun to become very prideful in an exalted purely-spiritual state of perfection (Ezekiel 28:15,17), so that God desired to humble him by raising up humans from the dirt who would eventually, through Christ, become so righteous that they would even judge the angels (1 Corinthians 6:3). This could have driven Satan mad (with envy), so that he became a murderer of humans from the beginning of his rebellion against God (John 8:44).

If God created humans out of dirt in order to eventually shame and humble prideful angels, this would be similar to how God could in the future create a new race of intelligent creatures from the stones of the ground in order to shame and humble prideful humans: "think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham" (Matthew 3:9). Proud Jews who heard this in the time of Jesus could have been driven mad (with Satanic envy) by this possibility. Satanic envy is so strong, it led some of the Jews to even murder Jesus himself (Matthew 27:18, John 8:40,44, 1 Thessalonians 2:15). Other Jews humbly believed in Jesus (who is himself a Jew, John 4:9,22), and they started the church, which God himself foreordained: "To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God" (Ephesians 3:10).

~

The created spiritual realm of the third heaven could be "above" the first heaven and the second heaven not in the physical three-dimensional sense that the second heaven is above the first heaven, but in a hyper-dimensional sense. That is, the created spiritual realm could involve three spatial dimensions which are "higher" than the three spatial dimensions of the first heaven and the second heaven. This would mean that the present creation, including the spiritual realm, would consist of at least seven dimensions: six spatial dimensions (three physical, three spiritual), and one temporal dimension.

If this is the case, then the relation between the spiritual realm and the physical realm would indeed be "intimate" in that the spiritual realm with its three "higher" spatial dimensions would be contiguous to every point of space in our physical realm with its three "lower" spatial dimensions, just as, by analogy, the three spatial dimensions of the physical realm surround a flat sheet of paper (which we could think of for the purpose of analogy as having only two spatial dimensions), and the three spatial dimensions of the physical realm are contiguous to every point on that flat two-dimensional sheet of paper.

But a creature of only two spatial dimensions living on that flat sheet of paper would be completely unaware of the third spatial dimension surrounding it, for its eyes of only two spatial dimensions would not be able to see any more than the two spatial dimensions of the flat sheet of paper.

And just like that little creature living in a realm with no knowledge of a "higher" third spatial dimension, even though that dimension is touching it at every point of its "lower" two-dimensional space, so it can seem to us that we are living in a creation of only three spatial dimensions, completely unaware that there are three "higher" spatial dimensions of the spiritual realm touching our three "lower" spatial dimensions at every point in space.

And just as we in our three spatial dimensions can look "down" at a flat, two-dimensional sheet of paper, so God and the angels could look "down" at us from the three "higher" spatial dimensions of the spiritual realm, so that our entire physical universe could appear to them as "flat" as a gigantic computer screen showing an entire computer "world" in operation (such as Second Life, an entire "world" that people can watch via the internet).

And just as we have to take on two-dimensional "avatars" in order to become a part of a two-dimensional computer-screen world, it's possible that if the angels want to actually enter into our physical realm, to actually move from the three "higher" spatial dimensions of the spiritual realm into the three "lower" spatial dimensions of the physical realm, they could have to temporarily take on an "avatar", a physical body consisting of matter existing in the three spatial dimensions of the physical realm.

But because the three "higher" spatial dimensions of the spiritual realm are contiguous to the three "lower" spatial dimensions of the physical realm at every point in space, if an angel wants to visit the earth it's not like he has to start way out at the edge of the physical universe and travel billions of light years until he gets to the earth. No, he can simply enter into this universe at any point in space. And he doesn't have to enter it all the way. He could just reach into it with an "avatar" of a physical hand and write something upon a wall (cf. Daniel 5:5).

After His resurrection, when Jesus had attained a human "spiritual body" like the ones we will receive at the resurrection of the Church (1 Corinthians 15:44), He proved that it could become physical flesh and bones (Luke 24:39-43), and yet He also proved that He could dematerialize it at will (Luke 24:31), just as we can cause a two-dimensional "avatar" of ourself to suddenly disappear from a two-dimensional computer-world. He also proved that His "spiritual body" was not bound by the three "lower" spatial dimensions of our physical realm, but could move out of them into the three "higher" spatial dimensions of the spiritual realm and then enter back into the physical realm at any point in space, suddenly materializing in the flesh in the middle of a locked room (John 20:19,26).

Our "locked rooms", from the point of view of spiritual beings, are no more inaccessible to them than the "locked rooms" of some two-dimensional creatures would be inaccessible to us. Two-dimensional creatures living on a flat sheet of paper could lock themselves in a "room" the walls and door of which would consist of mere lines drawn on that flat sheet of paper. So they could be surprised by someone with access to a third spatial dimension being able to suddenly draw themselves right in the middle of their little "room" without having had to have gone through the locked door.

~

The ultimate point of the old round, as in this old earth, is God's pleasure (Revelation 4:11), which includes ultimately saving elect humans (Romans 9:23) and damning non-elect humans (Romans 9:22).

The point of the new round, as in the new earth (Revelation 21), is to take the saved elect humans of the old earth to "the next level" of the game, as it were (although it's not a game). And to create a new race of humans (Isaiah 65:17,20) which can be elected and not-elected as God pleases.

The eternal saved human beings will get to see and hear God in the New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as the apostles got to see and hear God, through Jesus (John 14:7-9, 1 John 1).

When God gives assignments to the eternal saved human beings in the New Jerusalem on the new earth, he will tell them what to do directly, like one person talks to another now, and like Jesus talked to his apostles at his first coming (Mark 16:15).

Saved humans in the eternal state will live in a literal city on a new earth (Revelation 21:2-4,10-26) with the garden of paradise in the midst of the city (Revelation 22:2, 2:7), and so they will do all of the good things which humans do in cities and nature-parks today. Also, some saved humans could be assigned to projects away from the earth, such as on the second planet from the sun (Revelation 2:28), which they could terraform for God. They could also terraform the fourth planet from the sun, and other planets in other star-systems, which they could then take care of and rule over for God.

There will be no condition after which there is nothing further, nothing new, for Christians will always be learning and doing more and more new things over an eternity, and God could always be creating new people, new worlds and new universes over an eternity. But, at the same time, no thing (as opposed to people) which God will create need be absolutely new, for he could have already created an infinite number of other universes in which every possible thing has already been created, every possible event has already occurred (Ecclesiastes 1:10).

The new earth could contain not only all of the animal species that have gone extinct since the flood (whether because of human activities or natural causes), but also all those animal species which had gone extinct before the flood, even millions of years before. Who knows? God could even let old T-Rex come back, but to munch the grass, with the lions, on the new earth, for on the new earth, like during the millennium (Isaiah 11:7), God will convert all animals into vegetarians (Isaiah 65:25). And the new earth could contain amazing new species of animals (not to mention plants) which have never existed on the old earth.

While Christ is the life (John 14:6), the source of our eternal life spiritually (John 3:16), the tree of life could be for the eternal life of our resurrection bodies, just as Adam's physical body would have lived forever if he had eaten of the tree of life (Genesis 3:22). The leaves of the tree of life could also help speed the healing (Revelation 22:2b) of our resurrection bodies should they ever be injured by accident.

And we may still have to eat other foods for our nourishment even after our resurrection, just as the angels may have to eat (Psalms 78:25).

"Man did eat angels'food: he sent them meat to the full." (Psalms 78:25)

Having to eat food is a good thing as it is a daily reminder of our dependence on God for our continued existence. This will be important to remember especially after our resurrection, so that we don't become proud and rebellious against God like happened with the angel Lucifer.

In the eternal state, saved humans will still eat, work, and play. They may not have to sleep, however, as their eternal bodies and brains may be able to maintain themselves without sleep.

Eternal human beings, who may have no need of sleep, won't spend 100% of their time bowing down and praising God because he will also give them other things to do for him, just as he does now (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Doing other things for God besides praising him doesn't take away from his glory, but adds to his glory, for all obedience to God adds to his glory.

Glorifying God wasn't defined as just praising him, but as honoring, praising, or worshipping him. Christians can glorify God by honoring him in other actions besides praising him (1 Corinthians 10:31).

The eternal, physical bodies which all humans will eventually receive will neither make them more virtuous nor less virtuous than they were in their temporary, mortal bodies. For our virtue, our obedience to God, is not based upon what bodies we have, but on how we employ our God-given free will in whatever body we might have.

The saved humans in New Jerusalem will have free will. God wants real children (Revelation 21:7), not robots. Because of their continued free will, it will be possible for the saved humans in New Jerusalem to sin, but they won't have to ever sin, just as saved humans now don't have to ever sin (Romans 6:17-22).

The Bible doesn't say either way that all of the saved people in New Jerusalem will sin or never sin, or that some will sin while others will never sin. But because they will all still have free will, it will be possible for all of them to sin.

If a saved person in the eternal state in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4) commits a sin, what will happen to him will depend on what he does next. If he repents, he will be forgiven (1 John 1:9). If he refuses to repent, he will be chastened (Revelation 3:19). And if he still refuses to repent, he will end up in the lake of fire (Hebrews 10:26-27).

The lake of fire will exist on the new earth outside the walls of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:14-15, 21:8). A lot else will also exist on the new earth outside the walls of New Jerusalem, for an entirely new race of humans will be created along with the new earth, which race will fall into sin and mortality, although they will normally die at advanced ages (Isaiah 65:17,20). Saved humans of the old earth could be like the angels of the new earth. They could minister to elect members of the new race of humans like angels now minister to elect humans (Hebrews 1:14).

 

[Bible2+]

Thank you for posting these old entries.

Regarding the 2nd one, I hope to add parts of it as a new entry under *Lev. 8:33 (replacing *Lev. 8), and as a new 2nd section under *Mt. 4:4, and as new entries under *Jn. 17:24 and *Rom. 15:13.

Regarding the 3rd entry, I hope to add parts of it as a new section under *1 Cor. 15:50, and as new entries under *2 Cor. 10:5 and *Rev. 2:7.

-

Thank you for helping me to make these additions to the blog.

Can you post 3 more entries that aren't yet in the blog?

 

[ThomasGuthler]

More entries:



British Israelism

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/british-israelism.7274297/page-3#post-48478443

(see also page 4 + 5)

--

Regarding Revelation 14:4, the children of Israel (Revelation 7:4) are among men, and Jesus told Israelites who would later also become the church that virginity is a good thing (Matthew 19:12).

Those in Revelation 14:4 are indeed virgins, and with Israel virginity is not to be bewailed under the New Covenant, for both Jesus and Paul (both Jews) praised virginity as the best thing for a man (Matthew 19:10-12, 1 Corinthians 7:1,7-8,32-33,35).

Even under the abolished Old Covenant male virginity wasn't bewailed. Exodus 23:26, Deuteronomy 7:14, 1 Samuel 2:5, and Psalms 113:9 didn't bewail male virginity; they simply referred to married women being blessed with children. Virginity and sterility are two completely different things. Sterility in a marriage can be bewailed without this having anything to do with male virginity, for the latter refers only to males who never get married and have sex.

The fact that the daughter of Jephthah bewailed her virginity (Judges 11:38) would have no bearing on male virginity, and it wouldn't apply at all to New Covenant Israel, in which even female virginity is praised as the best thing for a woman (1 Corinthians 7:34-35).

...

Female Christians shouldn't get mad about Revelation 14:4, just as they shouldn't get mad about Luke 6:13-16, or 1 Timothy 2:11-14, or 1 Corinthians 14:34-37, or 1 Corinthians 11:3-16, or Ephesians 5:22.

~

Cain received a seal (or mark) from God which was visible to men as a reminder not to kill Cain (Genesis 4:15).

In the time of Ezekiel, some faithful Jews in Jerusalem received a seal (or mark) from an angel of God which was visible to angels as a reminder not to kill them (Ezekiel 9:4-10).

In the coming tribulation, the 144,000 part of the church will receive a seal (or mark) from angels of God which will be visible to both angels and demonic creatures such as the locusts as a reminder not to hurt them (Revelation 7:3-4, 9:4).

While the Bible nowhere teaches that the faithful will be able to see the seals upon the foreheads of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 7:3-4, 14:4), neither does the Bible say that they won't, so this remains a possibility. But it wouldn't be a good idea to avoid those without such visible seals upon their foreheads, for there will be many in the church who will go through the tribulation who won't be part of the 144,000, and who could need our assistance.

...

... regarding Revelation 7:3, those in the church are the servants of God (Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 22:3,6,16), and the seal which was placed on the foreheads of the 144,000 in Revelation 7:3-4 could be the name of the Father seen written on their foreheads in Revelation 14:1; "the seal of the living God" isn't Old Testament terminology.

Nothing requires that the forehead-seal received by the 144,000 in Revelation 7:2-3 isn't the Father's name written in their foreheads in Revelation 14:1.

The 144,000 being called "the servants of our God" (Revelation 7:3) doesn't mean that they aren't the children of God (cf. Revelation 14:1), for those in the church are both the servants of God (Romans 6:22) and his children (Romans 8:16) at the same time.

…

There's no contrast between the 144,000 being the children of Israel (Revelation 7:4) and their being redeemed from among men (Revelation 14:4), for the the children of Israel are redeemed from among men.

Throughout the entire book of Revelation, God being referred to as Father each time in connection with the church (Revelation 1:6, 2:27, 3:5, 3:21, 14:1) in no way means that God isn't the Father of Israel (Jeremiah 31:9, Isaiah 63:16-17).

~

Trumpets of God or angels trumpeting is no difference, insofar as angels can trumpet the trumpets of God (Revelation 8:2,7).

The fact that angels sound the trumpets of the tribulation (e.g. Revelation 8:7) doesn't require that the events which follow the sounding of the first six trumpets can't be the work of Satan, just as the fact that good watchmen can sound trumpets to warn a city of an approaching hostile army (Ezekiel 33:3) doesn't require that that approaching hostile army isn't made up of evil men.

The first six trumpets (Revelation 8:7-9:21) could all be the work of Satan. God could allow him to ruin one-third of things (Revelation 8:7-12, 9:15,18), just as God allows him ruin one-third of the angels (Revelation 12:4).

~

The two trumpets of Numbers 10:1-10 could be a type [foreshadowing] of the seventh trumpet of the tribulation (Revelation 11:15-18) followed by the trumpet after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), the trumpet of the gathering together (Matthew 24:31, which is the trumpet of 1 Thessalonians 4:16).

~

The fact that Christians have been able to wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb for 2000 years (cf. Revelation 1:5b) doesn't mean that the great multitude of Revelation 7:9,14 has been in heaven for 2000 years; it only means that the great multitude, which will come out of the coming tribulation (Revelation 7:9,14), will be part of the Church. This shows that the Church will go into the tribulation, that there will be no pre-trib rapture, something which the Bible nowhere teaches.

When the Bible says that the great multitude of Revelation 7:9 have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14), this is not literal, for robes cannot be made white by washing them with red blood, which will only stain them red. So clearly "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" is a figurative reference to their salvation through receiving the forgiveness of their sins through their faith in the blood of Jesus shed for their sins on the cross (Romans 3:25).

The great multitude of Revelation 7:9 are only part of the Church, that part which entered into the endtime tribulation and died in its first stage, the seal events of the chapter just prior (Revelation 6). So they came out of the tribulation (Revelation 7:14) [long before it's over] and entered into heaven (Revelation 7:9) by dying, [just as a wounded soldier can be brought out of a war long before it's over] just as anyone in the Church who dies at anytime enters into heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

The great multitude in Revelation 19:6 doesn't have to be the same great multitude as in Revelation 7:9, for the great multitude in Revelation 7:9 is part of the Church, and so could refer to the Church as "we" or "us", whereas the great multitude in Revelation 19:6 refers to the Church in the third person as "her" and "she", so that the great multitude in Revelation 19:6 could be the 100 million angels in heaven referred to in Revelation 5:11.

…

Even though some people have been saved by the blood of Jesus ever since his crucifixion around 33 AD (Matthew 26:28), Revelation 7:14 could still refer only to those saved people who will enter into the coming tribulation and then come out of it by dying during its first stage: seals 2-6 of the chapter just prior (Revelation 6:3-14). Their death will take them into heaven, just as whenever saved people die they enter into heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9).

~

Nothing about the phrase "to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) requires that the war that the second seal symbolizes will be a war just for the sake of war and not for the sake of ideology, for the war it symbolizes could be started by an Iraqi Baathist General against Israel and Egypt for the sake of Baathist ideology, even if he initially cloaks his motive under Islamic ideology, which he could easily do if, for example, some ultra-Orthodox Jewish extremists blow up of the Islamic Dome of the Rock to (as they could say) "prepare the site for Messiah's rebuilding of the Temple".

Even wars started because of ideology and between armies of opposing ideologies aim at "killing one another" (Revelation 6:4), under the belief that by killing people opposed to one's own ideology, one's own ideology can therefore become more powerful upon the earth.

~

The "bow" that the first-seal rider has (Revelation 6:2) may not be a weapon bow, as in "bow and arrow", if when Strong's Greek Dictionary says that the original Greek word translated as "bow" means "bow (appar. as the simplest fabric)", by "simplest fabric", Strong meant "simplest cloth". But if by "simplest fabric" Strong meant "simplest construction", and was referring to a bow-and-arrow bow of the simplest construction, this could still apply to the gospel, which is of the simplest construction (John 3:16, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The first seal can't refer to international peace pacts brought in or maintained through righteousness before the second coming, for there is no righteousness apart from faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), and he came not to bring peace on earth (Matthew 10:34), until his second coming (Micah 4:3-4).

~

Revelation 5:9 refers to the point in time when the gospel will have reached every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation on the entire earth (Matthew 24:14).

~

There's no prophecy that the world won't be destroyed by nuclear weapons. Mushroom clouds could be the "pillars of smoke" referred to in Joel 2:30.

Nuclear weapons could be the "great sword" of Revelation 6:4b, and the sword of Ezekiel 21:9-15.

The "waster" in Isaiah 54:16 could be nuclear weapons.

~

Quote: „If any dude makes fire come down from heaven for the purpose of deception , then you and I are not going to be decieved , because we have already read about it from the book of revelation.“

A: Not necessarily, for the Antichrist could convince us that the book of Revelation is nothing more than YHWH's propaganda, intended to deceive his dupes into rejecting Lucifer's deliverance of mankind from YHWH's tyranny.

The Antichrist could say, "Why do you JESUS Christians deny the amazing miracle of my Prophet [Revelation 13:13] which proves that I and the dragon Lucifer are God? [Revelation 13:4]. Because of what YHWH says? Isn't it YHWH who pretends in the Bible that his prophet Elijah called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH was God? (1 Kings 18:38-39). Now when my prophet does the same thing, for real and not in some fairy-tale book, YHWH wants to try and claim that it's no proof that I and Lucifer are God? What kind of stupid inconsistency is that? Can't you see through it? Are you so blinded by YHWH that you'll believe a stupid old book of myths over what you've actually seen with your own eyes?"

This could cause some Christians to begin to doubt, especially those for whom "signs and wonders" are the be-all and end-all of spirituality. But all they need to do is remember the warnings in Matthew 24:24 and 2 Thessalonians 2:9.

1 Kings 18:38-39 really happened, and YHWH will permit Revelation 13:13 to happen in accordance with Deuteronomy 13:1-3, that is, as a test to see if we love YHWH for who He is, or just because He can do some neat miracles.

Quote: „So who do you think the decieved persons will be?“

A: Almost the whole world (Revelation 13:14), all those whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb (Revelation 13:8), which can include believers whose names have been blotted out of it (Revelation 3:5).

~

Revelation 13:13 could be some sort of plasma bolt shot down by some advanced secret military satellite, or by some aircraft flying at such a high altitude, or above cloud-cover, so that it can't be seen from the ground. But the Antichrist could still pretend that it's a miraculous spiritual sign sent down by Lucifer from Heaven.

Or, Revelation 13:13, instead of being some technological special effect, could really be a miraculous spiritual sign wrought by the power of Lucifer, in accordance with 2 Thessalonians 2:9, at least the part about his "power". But even then, it would still be a "lying" wonder insofar as Lucifer would perform it as purported "proof" that he's God and YHWH isn't.

~

Or the False Prophet could even present himself to the world as being Jesus himself, for Jesus appears figuratively as a lamb in Revelation 5:6. Jesus is also referred to as a figurative lamb 27 other times in the book of Revelation: in Revelation 5:8, Revelation 5:12, Revelation 5:13, Revelation 6:1, Revelation 6:16, Revelation 7:9, Revelation 7:10, Revelation 7:14, Revelation 7:17, Revelation 12:11, Revelation 13:8, Revelation 14:1, Revelation 14:4 [two times], Revelation 14:10, Revelation 15:3, Revelation 17:14 [two times], Revelation 19:7, Revelation 19:9, Revelation 21:9, Revelation 21:14, Revelation 21:22, Revelation 21:23, Revelation 21:27, Revelation 22:1, and Revelation 22:3. Jesus is also referred to as a figurative lamb four other times in the New Testament: in John 1:29, John 1:36, Acts 8:32, and 1 Peter 1:19.

~

A true prophet doesn't only predict the future; he can also speak for God regarding things in the past and the present (e.g. Isaiah 1:1-4). Also, a true prophet can also speak for God regarding people seeking peace: "seek the peace of the city whither I have caused you to be carried away captives, and pray unto the LORD for it: for in the peace thereof shall ye have peace" (Jeremiah 29:7).

Just as the true prophet Jeremiah, speaking for God, told the Israelites already in Babylon to seek the peace of that city (Jeremiah 29:7), so the False Prophet of the Antichrist, claiming to speak for God, could begin his tenure (possibly as Pope) by telling the Christians and Muslims of the world to seek the peace of the world, by laying aside their theological differences and joining into (what he could call) "One religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man. What is more important than that?".

Once he's watered down and homogenized Christianity and Islam into "Love for God, and Love for our fellow man", he could bring in the "Eastern Wisdom" of "the core and peaceful truths of Hinduism and Buddhism", blending them into a "One World Religion which everyone can embrace as their own. No more hatred of other religions, no more divisions between men. We are one humanity under one God".

Then, once he's got everyone in the palm of his hand, he will suddenly reveal "the secret" of who that "one God" is; he will say that the true God is the dragon Lucifer and his son the Antichrist, and he will back up this claim by performing amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13, 19:20) so that the whole world will go ga-ga and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4,8,12).

~

Angels are spirits (Hebrews 1:7), but when they enter the physical realm they can take on avatars, real physical bodies which can, for example, grasp the hands of humans (Genesis 19:16) and eat food (Genesis 18:8).

So Satan and his fallen angels, when they are cast down to the earth, could take on real physical bodies, even ones which look human, or perhaps humanoid, like the grey aliens.

Satan and his fallen angels could make their coming down to the earth appear to the world at first as an "alien visitation". They could pretend that they're friendly and have come to help mankind and the planet survive the tribulation. If they come in "spaceships" and land on the earth, Satan and the fallen angels could bring out of their spaceships some Nephilim, giants (Genesis 6:4), angel-human hybrids who had been conceived and born on the spaceships or other planets over the centuries, born of women abducted and then forced or enticed (or drugged) into copulating with the fallen angels, to (as they could say) "genetically improve and strengthen the human race".

The world has already been well-primed through science fiction to believe in the possible existence of aliens and of their visiting the earth.

~

The devil could descend to the earth with his angels (they could be seen as aliens) on the same mid-tribulation day that the human who is the Antichrist (the beast) is empowered by the devil (Revelation 13:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:9) and commits the abomination of desolation (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

~

Jesus saying that the devil was a liar and a murderer from the beginning (John 8:44) could mean from his beginning as the devil, not from his beginning as Lucifer.

And/or, Jesus saying that the devil was a liar and a murderer from the beginning (John 8:44) could mean from the beginning of the Adamic race in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 2:7-8).

~

Luke 10:18 doesn't have to be the same event as Revelation 12:9, just as it doesn't have to be the same event as Isaiah 14:12.

Luke 10:18 could refer to Satan's local defeat where and when the 70 had ministered (Luke 10:17-18).

 

[ThomasGuthler]

--

"Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel" (Micah 5:3).

"Therefore will he give them up" is referring to when Jesus gave up on the unbelieving Jews and turned His attention to the Church (of believing Jews and believing Gentiles):

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matthew 21:43).

This is the same as the casting off of the unbelieving natural branches from the tree of believing Israel:

"... because of unbelief they were broken off" (Romans 11:20).

...

"... until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth" (Micah 5:3) could refer to the Church travailing in the tribulation (Revelation 12:2) and then the setting apart of the 144,000 part of the Church from the rest of the Church as the "man child" and its catching up into heaven right before the 42-month reign of the Antichrist begins (Revelation 12:5-6, 14:1-5).

...

"...then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel" (Micah 5:3) could refer to the salvation of all of the unbelieving elect Jews who will still be alive at the second coming (Romans 11:26, Zechariah 12:10-14).

It is at that time that they will be grafted back into the good olive tree of believing Israel, for they will have come to believe in Jesus:

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again" (Romans 11:23).

~

Daniel had one coherent dream in Daniel 7:1-14, in which he saw (visioned) different things.

Daniel 2:28b, Daniel 4:5,9b, and Daniel 7:1 show that the same singular dream can at the same time be referred to as plural visions, for multiple images can be seen (visioned) in one dream.

Daniel 7:7 is no different in its use of "after this" as Daniel 7:6. Daniel 7:1-7 is one dream of four beasts.

Daniel 7:7 is clearly referring to the fourth beast of Daniel 7:3.

Daniel 7:3b means that the four beasts of Daniel 7:4-7 are different from each other. Daniel 7:7b simply emphasizes that the fourth beast (Daniel 7:7a) is different than the three preceding beasts.

… there can be a gap between Dan. 7:7b and Dan. 7:7c-11.

~

The ten toes being partly iron and partly clay (Daniel 2:42) could represent the difference between the Europeans on the one hand and the people of North Africa and the Middle East on the other. Historically, the former have shown themselves to be generally stronger militarily and economically than the latter, so the iron could represent the Europeans while the clay could represent the people of North Africa and the Middle East.

~

The Antichrist won't corrupt all of the Jews in Jerusalem, for he will have to fight his way into the temple to stop the sacrifices and commit the abomination of desolation (Daniel 11:31). There will be some ultra-Orthodox Jews who no doubt will try to do everything they can to keep the temple from being defiled, but the Antichrist's military forces will be too strong, and will overpower them.

If Josephus relates a situation where the Romans almost had to kill every last priest blocking their way into the second temple, a similar situation could occur when the Antichrist attacks a third temple, stops the Old Covenant sacrifices which will have been restarted in front of it, and commits the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15) by sitting in the temple and proclaiming himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, 2 Thessalonians 2:4). That is, the ultra-Orthodox Jews who will have rebuilt the temple and restarted the sacrifices could put up quite a desperate fight against the Antichrist, trying to prevent him from defiling their temple, only to have many of their defending priests and Levites fall before his superior military might (Daniel 11:31).

Where the "inside job" aspects of the abomination of desolation could come in (Daniel 11:30b-32) is with non-religious or "New Age" Jews living in Jerusalem who will gladly assist the Antichrist in overthrowing the (by that time) ultra-Orthodox religious control over the Old City of Jerusalem and its Temple Mount, which control they could find quite "oppressive", and so want removed.

~

Ahaz' replacement of the original altar of the first temple by another of a pagan design as the place where the Old Covenant animal sacrifices would be offered in front of the temple (2 Kings 16:10-16), reserving the original altar as the place where Ahaz would make enquiries to YHWH (2 Kings 16:15b), although it was wrong to do, isn't referred to as an abomination of desolation.

The pagan shrines which King Manasseh erected throughout the first temple complex (2 Kings 21:5, 2 Chronicles 33:5), including within the temple (2 Kings 21:4,7, 2 Chronicles 33:4,7), are referred to as abominations (2 Kings 21:2,11, 2 Chronicles 33:2), because of which God would later bring physical desolation to all of Jerusalem and Judah (2 Kings 21:12-14, 23:26-27, Jeremiah 15:4), even despite God's accepting of King Manasseh's personal repentance (2 Chronicles 33:12-13), cleansing of the temple from all pagan altars (2 Chronicles 33:15), and restoration of the original altar and Old Covenant animal sacrifices (2 Chronicles 33:16).

~

Christians need to be aware that this "666" could be disguised to look like "777", in the following way: the 6th letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet has a numerical value of 6 in gematria, yet it looks like our number 7. So Christians could think that they're receiving "the true mark of Christ, 777", when actually they're receiving a mark consisting of a triple iteration of the 6th letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet, representing a triple iteration of the number 6.

There's even a popular energy drink the symbol of which looks like a monster's scratching: three ragged vertical scratch-lines which together look sort of like 777, or a triple iteration of the 6th letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet, so that the symbol could represent a disguised form of 666. It's possible that this is meant to be understood as some sort of joke, a humorous harbinger of what the mark of the beast could look like, for on the side of the energy-drink's cans one finds the motto: Unleash the Beast!

But the mark of the beast will be no joke: anyone who receives it and worships the Antichrist and his image will be damned to eternal torment in fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:9-11).

…

There is even a popular energy drink that makes fun of all of this. On the side of its cans it says something like "Unlock the beast!", no doubt referring to "the beast" of Revelation 13, the Antichrist. The symbol on the front of the can looks like a ragged scratch from the claws of some monster. This scratch consists of what looks like three 7's in a row, so that together they look like an M, the first letter of the name of the drink. But these three 7's look just like the sixth letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet, which stood for the number 6, so that the three 7's are actually a disguised form of 6-6-6.

Many people drink this drink without even getting the joke. Others place stickers just of the symbol for the drink on their cars, possibly fully aware of what it stands for, like those who place stickers of a pentagram on their cars know full well what the pentagram stands for. Who knows? Maybe the symbol for the drink isn't a joke in the end, just as the pentagram isn't a joke. Maybe the drink, which is becoming more and more popular, is just another way of seriously desensitizing people to what is coming, so that when the real thing does come it will be familiar to people, not strange at all; it will appear to people as completely harmless, even a little fun.

~

The Greek word translated as "count", as in "add up", in Revelation 13:18, comes from the Greek word translated as "stone" in Revelation 2:17, for the ancient Greeks used to add things up by using little stones (cf. the abacus).

~

... God is having people today reacquaint the church with the ancient system of gematria precisely so that more in the church will be able to see if someone could possibly be the Antichrist, and so they don't have to waste their own and others' time pointing to and focusing upon people who cannot possibly be the Antichrist.

Satan could inspire a flood of endless, so-called gematrial musings, to the point where it becomes "total overkill" for most people, so that they turn off to gematria altogether, and so will be lacking one tool by which to identify the Antichrist.

But may the earth, as it were, swallow up the flood from Satan's mouth, so that the church won't be carried away (cf. Revelation 12:15-16) from the ancient, true gematria, but will be able to employ it as intended by God in Revelation 13:17b-18.

~

Regarding "which pronoun should be used in connection with the number and mark of the beast", in the original Greek, a neuter-gender pronoun ("it") is used in connection with the number and mark of the beast (Revelation 13:16-18). But the number is at the same time said to be of a man (Revelation 13:18), for in the original Greek of the Bible even neuter-noun "beasts" can refer to men (Titus 1:12).

Quote: „I think we agree the first beast out of the sea is the Antichrist and the second beast out of the earth is the false prophet.“

A: Yes.

Quote: „Since these two beasts are men, the masculine pronoun should be used, but not through out the entire chapter.“

A: Even though both beasts are men, in the original Greek the masculine pronoun is only used with regard to the first beast (in its human aspect) in Revelation 13:18. (The masculine pronoun is also used with regard to the first beast in its fallen-angel aspect in Revelation 17:10.) But this is not a problem, because as was said, even neuter-noun "beasts" can refer to men (Titus 1:12).

While the original Greek of Revelation refers to a neuter-noun "beast" (Revelation 13) and usually uses a neuter-pronoun "it" to refer to it (Revelation 13), Revelation also uses a masculine-pronoun "he" to refer to it (Revelation 13:8), for in the Bible even neuter-noun "beasts" can refer to men (Titus 1:12).

~

While Manasseh placed a statue of the Phoenician goddess Asherah (Astarte) in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem (2 Kings 21:7, "grove" in the original Hebrew is "Asherah"), the Antichrist, after he sits in the temple and proclaims himself the supreme God (2 Thessalonians 2:4), could place in the temple a statue of himself to be worshipped (Daniel 11:31b, Matthew 24:15).

What Manasseh did in 2 Kings 21:4-9 was different than what the Antichrist will do in the future at the abomination of desolation, insofar as the Antichrist will sit in the temple and say that he himself is the supreme God (Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

~

For example, as a worshipper named Mary, a housewife with two little children, is bowing down before the image of the Antichrist on her TV screen at a set time, the Antichrist could speak forth to her "Mary! Mary! My beloved handmaid! You are so precious to me, my love. You so faithfully take care of dear little Johnnie and Michelle, whom I have entrusted to you, that you might raise them up to become My servants and faithful worshippers, just as you are. How I love thee, my Mary. How I cherish thee, my precious dove". And poor Mary could begin to cry with happiness over her dear Lord's kind words to her, not realizing that they're merely the concoction of some artificial-intelligence program running in some supercomputer down in the basement of some government building.

…

For what he could mandate is that his image be worshipped five times a day at set times, and at those times everyone will have to bow at their waist before his image, then get down on their knees before it, and then bow down until their foreheads touch the ground; and then they could be required to stand back up and do all that over again three times in a row, while they chant some mantra like "Oh, Lord Lucifer, we adore thee, divine Christ, our God. You are magnificent, our wonderful Father. How we worship thee in thy excellent brightness", etc.

So the Antichrist could want the camera-surveillance computers to see if a worshipper is actually bowing at the waist, then actually kneeling, then actually bowing down with his face to the ground. Today, computers are already being programmed to be able to determine the bodily positions of people simply by looking at them through a camera.

Cameras and microphones on the computers, Blackberries, Ipods, cell phones, and televisions of individuals could feed images and vocal sounds of the individuals back to the supercomputers, which could then employ programs to determine the bodily position, facial expressions, and voice patterns of the individuals, to make sure that they're worshipping in the proper position, saying the right words, and "in the proper spirit of gratitude", instead of with resentment, with clenched teeth and hands, and angrily-squinted eyes, and an anger-strained voice.

If an individual misses a set worship time, or worships in an improper manner, the supercomputers could notify patrolling police to visit the home or workplace of that individual and interrogate him or her to determine the "status of their loyalty to the World Emperor". If the interrogation suggests that their loyalty is wavering, they could be taken down to a "security center" where their brains will be PET-scanned while images of the Antichrist, their children, puppies, etc., flash on a screen in front of them. If when images of the Antichrist appear, certain parts of their brain light up which are connected with "negative emotions", they could be arrested and placed into a psychiatric center where they will be "counseled" (and drugged) until they're able to "overcome their irrational hostility toward the Beloved Savior of the World".

The "most hopeless" cases could be given shock treatments and lobotomies, and released back into the world once they've shown themselves to be "cured" and totally and properly compliant toward the worship of the Antichrist's image.

~

God had the Israelites kill the Canaanites as part of his righteous judgment against the Canaanites' sinfulness (Deuteronomy 9:4).

But even under the Old Covenant, God never commanded indiscriminate violence; any violence he commanded was just and right (Deuteronomy 32:4), usually a punishment from him for unrepentant wickedness: "for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee" (Deuteronomy 9:4).

While all of human life together has no relative value compared with God Himself (Isaiah 40:15,17), it still does matter if one human murders another human (Exodus 20:13). Under the Old Covenant, God's commanding the Israelites to kill the Canaanites was not genocide, or the murder of an entire people by humans, but rather was God's own capital punishment of the Canaanites for their unrepentant sins (Deuteronomy 9:3-5).

… ultimately the wages of any sin whatsoever is death (Romans 6:23). It's easy to forget that even if God had not commanded the Israelites to kill the Canaanites, the Canaanites would have eventually died for their sins anyway, if even just from old age. And compared with eternity, there is no real difference between a life lasting, say, only two years, and a life lasting only 80 years. Both are just a blink of an eye (James 4:14b). So judging and reviling God for commanding the Israelites to kill the Canaanites is ultimately the same as judging and reviling God for the fact that people die of old age. And to judge and revile God for the mortality of humans is the same as judging and reviling God for not making all humans immortal no matter how sinful they are. And this reveals what ultimately underlies all human judging and reviling of God: the desire of sinful humans to get rid of God, and live forever on their own and do whatever they want. But alas, this is an existential impossibility, for our very existence is maintained solely by God (Acts 17:28, Colossians 1:17); in this fact can begin our humility as mere humans, mere creatures, who are not the Creator, who are not God (Romans 9:20)

~

In 1 Samuel 14, before Jonathan attacked, he made sure to lay a fleece, as it were: God would signal to go ahead by causing the Philistines to tell Jonathan to come on up (1 Samuel 14:10). Jonathan knew that without God's miraculous help, he didn't stand a chance, but with God's miraculous help, it didn't matter that it was only him and his young assistant against the Philistine garrison (1 Samuel 14:6).

God gave Jonathan initial success by his own hand (1 Samuel 14:14), and then wrought a miraculous earthquake and confusion among the Philistines so that they started to kill each other (1 Samuel 14:15-16,20b). Then all the quisling Hebrews who were among the Philistines turned on them (1 Samuel 14:21). Then all the men of Israel who before that time had been hiding in fear of the Philistines attacked them (1 Samuel 14:22).

So it was Jonathan's bravery, submitted to God's will, which started a whole chain of miraculous and natural events which resulted in the defeat of the Philistines.

And God got the credit for that victory (1 Samuel 14:23). But it took the courage of a young prince to serve as the spark with which God kindled his fire against the Philistines.

~

It was God who chose Saul to be king of Israel (1 Samuel 15:1).

It was only after Saul disobeyed God that God rejected Saul as king and replaced him with David (1 Samuel 15:26-28).

~

The ministries of the old testament prophets weren't based on their backgrounds, but on divine inspiration (Amos 7:14-16, 2 Peter 1:21, 2 Timothy 3:16).

While Jesus was the prophet (Acts 3:22-26) and was also a carpenter (Mark 6:3), his parables didn't
employ similes based on carpentry, for Jesus wasn't speaking from his own experience or his own ideas, but only what God the Father told him to speak (John 12:49, 14:24b).

Similarly, while Amos was a prophet and was also a herdman and a gatherer of sycamore fruit (Amos 1:1, 7:14), his message rarely employed herding similes and never used a sycamore simile, for, like any prophet speaking the word of God himself, Amos' message wasn't based on his own experience or his own ideas (2 Peter 1:21), but was what God told him to say (Amos 7:15-16).

~

Regarding John 13:8b, note that it doesn't contradict that God hates the nonelect themselves (Romans 9:11-13), for John 13:8b was spoken only to Peter, who is an elect person. Peter is an elect person because he's a believer in Jesus Christ (John 6:68-69), and the ability to believe in Jesus Christ comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, 1 Corinthians 3:5, Romans 12:3b).

~

Not even all those who are descendants of Israel are necessarily elect (Romans 9:6-20), just as Rahab (Hebrews 11:31, James 2:25) showed that not all of the Canaanites were necessarily non-elect. God elects or doesn't elect individuals, although he can elect or not elect most of the individuals within any one nation.

It's not necessarily the case that the Canaanites were more evil than the Egyptians, but, as a general rule (allowing for individual exceptions), the Canaanites were not an elect nation, whereas Egypt is an elect nation, insofar as Egypt will eventually be reconciled to God and blessed by him during the millennium (Isaiah 19:25).

~

Even though the lives of the elect have no innate worth compared with God himself, he still loves the elect dearly as his own children (1 John 3:1). It's like a boy living on a huge chicken farm finding a stray chick hopping on his front porch. He picks it up and starts to take care of it, feeding it by hand with a teaspoon; making a little, comfy bed for it in a shoebox; and carrying it around with him wherever he goes. After few days of seeing this, one of the farmhands calls out, "Hey, kid! You know how much that chick is worth? About five cents. Would you love a nickel like you love that chick? Come here and I'll give you a dollar for it."

"No!"

"Okay, how about ten dollars."

"No way! I wouldn't give him up for a hundred dollars!"

"A hundred? Okay, tell you what [taking out his wallet], I'm gonna give you everything I've got, a hundred fifty dollar for that chick."

"No! No! No! I wouldn't give him up for the whole world! He's my friend. I love him!"

~

Regarding Revelation 15:1, the Greek word translated as "filled up" can simply mean "performed" (Luke 2:39). Revelation 15:1 doesn't mean that the tribulation wrath of the seven plagues and seven vials of Revelation chapters 15-16 will be the end of God's wrath, for the subsequent day of the Lord/second coming will involve more of God's wrath (Revelation 19:15).

~

The two witnesses aren't the Old and New Testaments, but two individual men, prophets, who will wear sackcloth and prophesy in Jerusalem during the 1,260 days of the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 11:3, cf. 12:6). They could be Moses and Elijah, the two seen standing by the Lord (Revelation 11:4, Zechariah 4:14) at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3). Fire will proceed from their mouths and devour their enemies (Revelation 11:5), just as Elijah was able to call fire down from heaven to devour people (2 Kings 1:10-12). The two witnesses will be able to cause it not to rain for 3.5 years (Revelation 11:6), just as Elijah was able to cause it not to rain for 3.5 years (James 5:17). The two witnesses will be able to turn water into blood (Revelation 11:6), just as Moses was able turn water into blood (Exodus 7:20). The two witnesses will be able to smite the earth with plagues (Revelation 11:6), just as Moses was able to smite Egypt with plagues (Exodus 9:14,22-25).

~

Q: The Holy Scriptures say that no prophet is accepted in his own country.

A: Note that nothing requires that the two witnesses/prophets (Revelation 11:3-12) will be accepted by unsaved Israel during the time of their testimony.

 

[Bible2+]

Thank you for posting these old entries.

Based on parts of them, I hope to add a paragraph to the 1st section of *Gen. 6:17, make small additions to *Num. 10:1, and add a new entry under *1 Sam. 14.

Also, I hope to make additions to the 2nd section under *Isa. 40:17, make additions to *Joel 2:30, and add a new entry under *Rev. 8:7.

Also, in the 1st section of *Rev. 13:14, I hope to add a paragraph (2nd to last), and make a small change to the last paragraph.

Also, I hope to insert a new 1st section under *Rev. 13:15.

-

Thank you for helping me to make these additions to the blog.

Can you post 3 more entries that aren't yet in the blog?

--

(Also, for any lurkers who may be interested in reading the blog, but aren't sure how to access its various parts, the following link should be helpful.)

http://www.christianforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/index-of-bible2-blog-posts-95.198504/

 

[ThomasGuthler]

There are some more entries and links, but I would consider them not relevant enough to post them day by day, therefore I put them all together and attached them to this post, so you can easy scan through all of them.

We can use this thread for further questions regarding some posts or blog entries.

--

Also, maybe you can comment on the following two posts, do you still think they are correct?


"Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel." (Micah 5:3)

"Therefore will he give them up" is referring to when Jesus gave up on the unbelieving Jews and turned His attention to the Church (of believing Jews and believing Gentiles):

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matthew 21:43).

This is the same as the casting off of the unbelieving natural branches from the tree of believing Israel:

"... because of unbelief they were broken off" (Romans 11:20).

~

"... until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth" (Micah 5:3) could refer to the Church travailing in the tribulation (Revelation 12:2) and then the setting apart of the 144,000 part of the Church from the rest of the Church as the "man child" and its catching up into heaven right before the 42-month reign of the Antichrist begins (Revelation 12:5-6, 14:1-5).

~

"...then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel" (Micah 5:3) could refer to the salvation of all of the unbelieving elect Jews who will still be alive at the second coming (Romans 11:26, Zechariah 12:10-14).

It is at that time that they will be grafted back into the good olive tree of believing Israel, for they will have come to believe in Jesus:

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again" (Romans 11:23).

--

Isaiah 66:1 could refer to the temple-building which the Orthodox Jews will build during the coming tribulation (Revelation 11:1-2). Isaiah 66:6 could refer to when, as a punishment for their unbelief in Jesus and His sacrifice, God (after two or three years) will allow the Antichrist to attack their rebuilt temple militarily and overcome it and stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, and sit in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This act, called the abomination of desolation, could be right when the man-child part of the Church (Isaiah 66:7-8), the 144,000, will be set apart from the rest of the Church and caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5, 14:5), right before the 1,260 day reign of the Antichrist begins (Revelation 12:6, cf. 13:5b), which reign could begin at the abomination of desolation.

Isaiah 66:2b could indeed refer to those in the Church, who are poor (Matthew 5:3) and contrite (1 John 1:9) and tremble (Romans 11:20b) at the New Covenant Word (James 1:21; 1 Peter 1:25) of Jesus (John 8:31b, 14:21,23-24).

Isaiah 66:3 could refer to those Orthodox Jews who (in their unbelief in Jesus and His sacrifice) will offer Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem during the coming tribulation, which sacrifices the Antichrist (after two or three years) will stop at the abomination of desolation (Daniel 11:31).

Isaiah 66:4 could refer to the unbelieving Orthodox Jews during the coming tribulation whom God will allow to be attacked and defeated by the Antichrist, along with their false "Messiah" (Daniel 11:22), before the Antichrist cuts a seven-year treaty with him (Daniel 9:26a,27a, 11:23a) allowing the false Messiah and his followers to continue to offer the Mosaic animal sacrifices before their rebuilt temple (Isaiah 66:5). But then only two or three years later the Antichrist will break the treaty, stop the sacrifices (Daniel 9:27b) and commit the abomination of desolation (Daniel 11:31), when he will sit in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36).

Isaiah 66:5 could refer to those Jews in the coming tribulation who will be believers in Jesus' New Testament Word and His sacrifice (Matthew 26:28), and so will be rejected and cast out by the Orthodox Jews, who will not believe in Jesus or His sacrifice. But the believing Jews will rejoice after the tribulation at Jesus' second coming, while the unbelieving elect Orthodox Jews will be ashamed at Jesus' second coming, and will all weep when they see Jesus and realize that He truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26).

In Isaiah 66:6, the Hebrew word translated as "voice" can simply mean "sound", so that Isaiah 66:6 doesn't have to be referring to the actual voice of the Lord, but simply the "sound" which will come from the Old City of Jerusalem when God brings judgment against the Orthodox Jews through the Antichrist's breaking of his treaty with them, his attacking of their rebuilt temple, his stopping of their sacrifices, and his commission of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 11:31,36, 2 Thessalonians 2:4). No doubt this will be accompanied by the sound of howls of grief from the Orthodox Jews when they find that they can't fight off the Antichrist, can't prevent the utter spiritual ruination of their holy temple.

Isaiah 66:7-8 could refer to the birth of the man child during the coming tribulation (Revelation 12:5), which refers to the 144,000 part of the Church being set apart from the rest of the Church as the firstfruits of the Church (Revelation 14:4b-5).

 

[Bible2+]

ThomasGuthler said in post 116:

There are some more entries and links, but I would consider them not relevant enough to post them day by day, therefore I put them all together and attached them to this post, so you can easy scan through all of them.

If there are any parts of that attached file, or of the previous posts in this thread, which you would really like to see added to the blog, please post or re-post those parts to this thread. (A few per day, if there are a lot.)

ThomasGuthler said in post 116:

We can use this thread for further questions regarding some posts or blog entries.

OK.

ThomasGuthler said in post 116:

Also, maybe you can comment on the following two posts, do you still think they are correct?

Regarding the 1st one, I think it could be correct, and after re-reading it, I hope to add it to the blog as a new entry under *Mic. 5:3.

ThomasGuthler said in post 116:

Also, maybe you can comment on the following two posts, do you still think they are correct?

Regarding the 2nd one:

I think Isaiah 66:1 has a more general application, i.e. also to the 1st and 2nd temples (cf. 2 Chronicles 2:6, Acts 17:24).

Isaiah 66:6 probably refers instead to the 2nd coming (Isaiah 66:5b).

Isaiah 66:2b could indeed refer to those in the church, for the reasons given. But it could also refer to faithful OT saints during OT times.

Isaiah 66:3-4 could include reference to the 3rd temple's unbelieving Jews. But it could also have applied in OT times (cf. Isaiah 1:1,11-13).

Isaiah 66:5, which the KJV shows as starting a new paragraph, could indeed refer to the 2nd coming ("he shall appear"). And it could indeed refer to Jewish believers rejected by Jewish unbelievers. But it could also include reference to non-Jewish Christians who have been wrongly cast out of churches, because their (correct) doctrine contradicted some (mistaken) doctrine of those churches.

Isaiah 66:7 actually seems contradictory to Revelation 12:2,5. But Isaiah 66:8c could be the same idea as Revelation 12:2,5. And Isaiah 66:7 and Isaiah 66:8 are clearly meant to be read as referring to the same thing. So Isaiah 66:7 must mean before she travailed the usual amount of time, before the usual amount of painful time came.

--

Based on this post, I hope to add new entries to the blog under *Isa. 66:5 and *Isa. 66:7.

 

[ThomasGuthler]

Thank you for commenting on the two points Isa. 66:1-8 + Micah 5:3.

--

Regarding the entry on Calvinism at *1 Cor. 1:12, maybe you could add or change the summary on Calvinism so that it covers all 5 points of TULIP?

Some entries on Calvinism:




Q: Is there a negative part in remaining non-denominational?

A: No. It's the right thing to do.

"I of Christ" is the only correct identification in 1 Corinthians 1:12, for Christ must not be divided (1 Corinthians 1:13, 1 Corinthians 12:25).

No teaching of the Bible itself should ever be called Calvinistic, but should be called Biblical, just as no Christian should ever identify himself as a Calvinist or identify himself as a Christian after any other man's name but Christ's (1 Corinthians 1:12-13).

The first two points of Calvinism (total depravity and unconditional election) are correct because they are scriptural (Romans 3:9-12, Ephesians 1:4-11, Romans 9:11-24), but they in no way logically require the fifth point of Calvinism (perseverance of the saints), which is not scriptural. Also, it hasn't been said that the fifth point of Calvinism is illogical, but that it (inadvertently) logically removes from Christians the assurance of their present salvation.

The saved, before they get saved, are totally depraved insofar as they are under sin, are unrighteous, are lacking understanding, are not seeking God, are out of the way, are unprofitable, are not doing good, etc. (Romans 3:9-12).

Ephesians 1 and Romans 9 have been understood perfectly by Calvinism. Paul was teaching that some individuals are elect while others aren't. Whether or not Paul was originally speaking to audiences that already believed that, he was in no way teaching the opposite.

~

Q: Is point 4 of TULIP "irresistible grace" correct?

A: Yes, insofar as election to initial salvation is concerned [...].

No, insofar as ultimate salvation is concerned.

~

Regarding Calvinism generally, it's ironic that a movement ostensibly based on sola scriptura would fixate its followers on the teachings of its extra-Biblical texts. Christians are to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4), not every word that proceeds from the mouth of Calvin or the Canons of Dordt. Christians shouldn't preach or follow the teachings of man-made texts, which are fallible, but should preach and follow the teachings of the word of God (2 Timothy 4:2), which is infallible (2 Timothy 3:16), lest believers or their hearers be drawn away from the sound doctrine of the word of God to follow ear-tickling fables invented by men (2 Timothy 4:3-4), or even worse, (God forbid) to follow the doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1).


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This entry is probably obsolet because of your answer given above in post #62?

Regarding the ark entry, I will skip it because I'm not sure whether it's true or not that there was no ark in the 2nd temple.

While Israel was being judged by the Babylonian captivity, a few of its priests could have managed to bury the ark of the covenant in a hill fortress in the desert east of Jerusalem, before Jerusalem was attacked and destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. The few priests with the knowledge of the whereabouts of the ark could have been killed in the captivity (Jeremiah 52:24-27) before being able to tell anyone else the location of the ark. And any cryptic instructions on how to find the ark which they may have engraved on a Copper Scroll could have been too vague for anyone to figure out, down until this day.

 

[Bible2+]

I hope to make changes to the blog entry under *1 Cor. 1:12.

I will pass on the ark entry, at this time anyway.

 

[ThomasGuthler]

According to this posts most churches are not biblical insofar as they are too big, don´t meet daily and they don´t operate in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit according to 1 Corinthians 14?


"God indeed wants us to assemble (Hebrews 10:25a), but not to sit as pew potatoes and watch an entertainment up on a stage, but to actively exhort each other (Hebrews 10:25b). So we must meet in groups small enough where everyone will be required to contribute something to every meeting (1 Corinthians 14:26). And we must meet regularly enough so that we can exhort each other every day (Hebrews 3:13).

The beauty of house churches (cf. Romans 16:5; 1 Corinthians 16:19b, Colossians 4:15b, Philemon 1:2b) is that they're small enough where everyone in the congregation can contribute something to every meeting (1 Corinthians 14:26)."

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If there are any parts of that attached file, or of the previous posts in this thread, which you would really like to see added to the blog, please post or re-post those parts to this thread. (A few per day, if there are a lot.)

The 3 entries in post #42 above (http://www.christianforums.com/threads/questions-for-bible2.7823515/page-3#post-68775072) would fit in that category.

The entry on baptism explains the background on Mikvah or "baptism in the Old Testament". The link to this thread would be: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/what-is-baptism.7376238/#post-52080286

The entry on Hinnom explains the background of that term and the valley.

Regarding the entry on the 7 churches, it shows that the common interpretation of Rev. chapter 1-3 as history of the church throughout the last 2000 years is not necessarily true or required from scripture.

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Can you post 3 more entries that aren't yet in the blog?

Some more general posts for review:


Even the freest countries will still let their police forces bring out their guns if one is breaking certain rules (i.e. if one is in the act of committing certain crimes). Freedom does not require lawlessness and anarchy. Indeed, lawlessness and anarchy can ultimately result in the loss of all freedoms as the most ruthless members of a society take over and enslave the rest.

The irony is that when people try to break free from God's rules and sin all they want, instead of finding freedom, they only find enslavement to sin and Satan (John 8:34, 2 Timothy 2:26, Romans 6:16-23).

Note that it hasn't actually been shown what rules are "arbitrary" instead of having well-thought-out reasons behind them. For example, immodest clothing can incite lust, as can certain ways of dancing; and lust is a sin (2 Peter 2:10).

Note that free will doesn't mean that it's good to do whatever one may want to do, for some things one may want to do could be sins (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21). Any rules set up by Christians should not be arbitrary, but should be in line with the rules set up by Jesus himself and his apostles in the Bible (e.g. Matthew 5:23-7:27; 1 Corinthians 14:37). Christians must obey these Biblical rules if they want to be saved in the end (Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21, Romans 2:6-8), and if they want to truly know Jesus and God the Father in the present (John 14:21-24, 15:14), instead of drifting off into some no-rules la-la land of human invention (2 Timothy 4:3-4) or demonic invention (1 Timothy 4:1-2).

No one can force any Christian to obey God's rules in the Bible, but a Christian cannot keep his salvation without obeying them (Matthew 7:21, Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-8), just as a Christian cannot truly know Jesus and God the Father without obeying them (John 14:21-24, John 15:14).

Actually, without rules from God, no Christian would know for sure what is a sin and what isn't. We can't always go by our own conscience, for "He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool" (Proverbs 28:26); "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Proverbs 14:12). God gave the Bible to Christians "for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect" (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

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The seven plagues of the seven vials of Revelation 16 won't all happen at the same time, but consecutively, for men won't be burned by great heat from the sun and be in darkness at the same time (Revelation 16:8-11).

Nor will all of the events of the vials happen real quick, for the armies of the world won't be able to all gather together (Revelation 16:14,16) at Armageddon (Har Megiddo - Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) in minutes; it could take them 45 days to do so.

(But while the events of the vials don't have to transpire real quick, the actual pouring out of each vial that initiates each event could happen real quick, in a moment, with the simple turning over of an angel's hand holding a vial.)

Nor will the events of the vials happen when Christ returns, but will all be completed before He returns, for the vials are the final stage of the tribulation, and Christ won't return until after the tribulation is over (Matthew 24:29-31), in Revelation 19.

...

Between the wrath of the vials (Revelation 16) and the wrath of the great white throne judgment (which wrath is the lake of fire: Revelation 20:15,10, 14:10-11) will come the wrath of the second coming (Revelation 19:15), and then the wrath during the millennium (Psalms 2:8-12, cf. Zechariah 14:17-19), and then the wrath at the end of the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel 38:18-23).

Too fine a distinction should not be made between "orge" as solely "judgmental wrath" and "thumos" as solely "emotional wrath", for "orge" can refer to the emotion of anger (Mark 3:5, Ephesians 4:31, Colossians 3:8), and the vials of God's "thumos" wrath include "judgment" (Revelation 16:5-7). God has no "emotional wrath" that is not at the same time righteous judgment (Deuteronomy 32:4).

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Whoever wins is God's choice (Romans 13). That isn't mutually exclusive with whoever wins also being the choice of the people and/or the electoral college, for predestination has never contradicted free will: before God created anything, out of the infinite number of possible free-willed sequences of events, God chose to bring into actual existence that one sequence which would please him the most (Revelation 4:11) by providing him the best opportunity to reveal his wrath, power, glory, mercy, and wisdom (Romans 9:22-23, Ephesians 3:10).

Whoever God's choice is to win the Presidential election in the U.S., it must be remembered that God can choose someone to rule a nation as a punishment to that nation (Isaiah 19:4), or he can stand back and let a nation foolishly choose bad leaders for themselves (cf. Isaiah 3:12). A nation should choose to be led by God himself, and not any fallible, mortal human whom the nation could ultimately regret choosing (cf. 1 Samuel 8:7-18). It was a bad sign when a nation moved "In God we trust" from the face of some of its coins to the outer rim (no doubt as only the first step in getting rid of the phrase altogether); what a perfect symbol of a nation pushing even its purported trust in God himself to the side and trusting instead in sinful humans to save the nation (Psalms 118:8-9, Jeremiah 17:5-8, 2 Chronicles 7:14).

God isn't in the business of saving political constructs like the USA; He saves individuals instead (John 3:16), regardless of whatever political construct they may be living under (Revelation 5:9b).

Christians shouldn't have their allegiance or hope in any country on this earth, but in God's city of New Jerusalem in the third heaven (Hebrews 11:13b-16, 12:22), which will descend down from the third heaven to the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

Christians must not be yoked together with non-Christians in political parties or in any other cause (2 Corinthians 6:15-18, Revelation 18:4, 1 John 5:19). Christians must not take part in political battles or any other non-spiritual battles (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12).

Any true Christians who are yoked together with non-Christians in a political party should become unyoked (2 Corinthians 6:14-18). Any true Christians caught up in political discourse should focus instead on spiritual discourse (2 Corinthians 10:3-5).

A spiritual battle involves only theological doctrines (2 Corinthians 10:5), and a wrestling only against evil spiritual beings (Ephesians 6:12) who enslave humans without those humans realizing it (2 Timothy 2:26).

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In Old Testament times, Gentiles heard the gospel of Christ the same way Israel did, through prophecies in the Old Testament scriptures, but, like Israel, the Gentiles didn't understand it back then. Gentiles nevertheless could come to God and the temple and the Old Covenant sacrifices through what they had heard in their countries about God and his amazing dealings with Israel:

"41 Moreover concerning a stranger, that is not of thy people Israel, but cometh out of a far country for thy name' sake; 42 (For they shall hear of thy great name, and of thy strong hand, and of thy stretched out arm when he shall come and pray toward this house" (1 Kings 8:41-42).

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Revelation from God is better than astrology (Daniel 2:27-28, Isaiah 47:13-14). God doesn't want us to go running after any form of divination or soothsaying, but to always go to him directly and to his perfect word to obtain all the information that we need in order to live our life in the best way possible (James 1:5, 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Matthew 4:4).

Christians should avoid Nostradamus-like prophets and stick with the Bible (Isaiah 8:19-20), which contains more than enough prophecies for Christians to ponder and discuss what their fulfillment could look like.

The prophecies in the Bible contain everything that Christians need to know (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:1, 22:16), just as the doctrines in the Bible are all that Christians need to know to become perfect (2 Timothy 3:16-17). There's no need to go running after more and more prophecies, just as there's no need to go running after more and more doctrines (Hebrews 13:9).

Some Christians who get bored with "just the Bible" and go searching for things "more interesting", could be seduced by those other things into eventually rejecting the Bible (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, 2 Corinthians 11:3-4,14, John 8:31).

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Regarding Exodus 19:10-20, it has no connection with the rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 insofar as the people met God on the ground at the foot of Mount Sinai (Exodus 19:17) and only Moses got to go up at the sound of the trumpet (Exodus 19:19-25), whereas at the rapture the entire Church will be caught up together (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), gathered together (2 Thessalonians 2:1) to meet Jesus up in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17b) at the sound of the trumpet (1 Thessalonians 4:16) at His second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15).

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Micah 7:2 is hyperbole, for there will still be faithful Christians on the earth during the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4). And some of them won't "perish" (Micah 7:2) during that time (Revelation 12:6,14-16, Revelation 16:15), but will still be "alive and remain" at the second coming of Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

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"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape" (Luke 21:36).

Here, the original Greek word translated as "escape" is not "laqach", but "ekpheugo", which means "to flee", and is used to refer to people on the earth physically fleeing. For example:

"... supposing that the prisoners had been fled [ekpheugo]" (Acts 16:27).

Here the prison-keeper didn't think that the prisoners had been raptured, but simply that they had physically fled out of the prison to some other place on the earth. Similarly:

"... they fled out [ekpheugo] of that house" (Acts 19:16).

This didn't mean that the seven sons of Sceva (Acts 19:14) were raptured out of that house, but simply physically fled from that house where the demoniac was to some other place on the earth.

So when Jesus says "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape [ekpheugo]" (Luke 21:36), he isn't referring to the rapture, but includes the idea of fleeing to a safe place on the earth ...

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The mid-trib catching up of the 144,000 part of the church to the throne of God in the third heaven (Revelation 12:5, 14:5) shouldn't be confused with the post-trib catching up of the entire church into the clouds in the first heaven (the sky) to meet Jesus in the air on his way down to the earth at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7).

This catching up of just the 144,000 isn't the same event as the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), though, for at least four reasons. First, the rapture has to involve the entire church, everyone in the church who has ever died and everyone in the church who will still be alive (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17).

Second, the rapture has to occur at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), and, as we've seen, the second coming can't happen until after the tribulation.

Third, the rapture will be immediately preceded by the resurrection of everyone in the church who has ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17), and this resurrection will be at the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23, Revelation 20:4-6), when there'll be a resurrection and changing of everyone in the church into immortality at the same time (1 Corinthians 15:51-53). None of these things occur at the catching up of just the 144,000, so they'll be caught up in their still-mortal bodies, just as Enoch and Elijah were (Hebrews 11:5, 2 Kings 2:11).

Fourth, the rapture will take the church only as high as the clouds, to meet Jesus in air on his way down to the earth at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), so that Jesus might judge the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and then marry the church (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds before the church mounts white horses and descends back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he wages war against the Antichrist and all the armies of the world (Revelation 19:11-21).

The 144,000, on the other hand, will be taken (mid-trib) all the way into the third heaven, where God's throne is (Revelation 12:5, 14:5). (They'll come back to the earth with Jesus at his second coming -- 1 Thessalonians 3:13b.)

No scripture ever says or requires that the rapture of the church at the second coming of Jesus will take the church into the third heaven.

Note that nothing in Revelation 12 says or requires that the entire church has died and gone to heaven, or that the entire church is caught up mid-tribulation along with the man-child, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 12:5-6, 14:4-5). Instead, Revelation 12 shows parts of the church still down on the earth, either in protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6) or being attacked by Satan (Revelation 12:17, cf. Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4).