Questions for Bible2

[ThomasGuthler]

In another closed Thread started you mentioned 3 requirements for salvation.

But receiving
eternal life does require three rituals: water-
immersion baptism, Holy-Spirit baptism (usually
received through the laying on of hands), and
Communion (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-5,
Acts 2:38, 22:16, John 3:5, Acts 19:2a,6, 8:15-17,
John 6:53-54, Matthew 26:26-28).

What about Holy-Spirit baptism, in other similar Threads you mentioned it not, so how do you back it up with scripture as a must?

How often is it required to partake in communion, is one time enough or every day/week?

Speaking in tongues is described to cease with "pauo" and not with "katargeo", so some say that´s the reason the real one is no more operating today.

Another Topic:
You mentioned that Infants are already elect/nonelect so if they die so early (Abortion) most of them are lost?



Maybe I can use this Thread for further questions, I´m following your Posts since a while and it´s not possible to contact you with PM.

 

[Bible2]

ThomasGuthler said in post 1:

What about Holy-Spirit baptism, in other similar Threads you mentioned it not, so how do you back it up with scripture as a must?

Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46) might be a requirement for ultimate salvation, based on John 3:5; and on Romans 8:9b when compared with Acts 19:2a. Or, John 3:5 could be referring to physical birth and initial salvation, and Romans 8:9b could be referring only to unbelievers, in that all believers could have some measure of the Spirit (John 7:39a; 2 Corinthians 4:13a).

Either way, besides getting water baptized, believers can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it's usually not given to them automatically at the moment that they become believers. That's why Paul the apostle asked some believers: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

Believers usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism won't result in speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8,9,10,11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many believers haven't yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they haven't yet asked for it, under the principle of "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many believers haven't yet asked for it because they've come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say that it's no longer in effect. Believers can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.

ThomasGuthler said in post 1:

How often is it required to partake in communion, is one time enough or every day/week?

The Bible doesn't say how often, but John 6:53-57 shows that all believers for their ultimate salvation need to eat the bread of communion (Matthew 26:26) and drink the wine of communion (Matthew 26:27-29), which actually become the body and blood of Jesus (1 Corinthians 11:27-30) in some spiritual manner (John 6:63).

ThomasGuthler said in post 1:

Speaking in tongues is described to cease with "pauo" and not with "katargeo", so some say that´s the reason the real one is no more operating today.

Note that nothing in 1 Corinthians 13:8b, even in the original Greek, requires that tongues are no longer operating in the church today. For the Holy Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10), which operate in believers who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 19:6, Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46), won't cease operating until Jesus' 2nd coming. 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 means that just as only when children become adults do they put away childish things, so only when believers become perfect when they see Jesus face to face at his 2nd coming (1 John 3:2) will they no longer need Spiritual gifts such as prophecy, tongues, and the word of knowledge (1 Corinthians 12:8,10). During the future tribulation, which will just precede the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), are some in the church going to reject the ministry of the 2 witnesses, simply because it will involve them prophesying and performing miracles (Revelation 11:3,6)?

Because the 2nd coming, like the preceding tribulation, hasn't happened yet, all the Spirit's gifts are still operating in the church today, within Pentecostal-type congregations, and within charismatic-type congregations, which can be of almost any denomination. God's Word commands believers to operate in the Spiritual gifts when believers come together (1 Corinthians 14:26-31). So congregations today should be careful not to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), such as by despising prophesyings (1 Thessalonians 5:20) or forbidding all speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39). Tongues are one of the Spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) through which believers can be regularly edified (1 Corinthians 14:4,5,12,26). Not all Holy Spirit-baptized believers will speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30), but almost all will (cf. Acts 19:6, Acts 10:45-46), for tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Corinthians 14:5).

Different believers receive different kinds of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10). Some tongues are languages which people can understand (Acts 2:4,8), whereas other tongues are languages which people can't understand (1 Corinthians 14:2), not even the speakers (1 Corinthians 14:14). Unintelligible tongues could include ancient human languages which are unknown to history, ancient human languages which are known to history but aren't understood, and angelic languages (1 Corinthians 13:1). Unintelligible tongues aren't useless, however, for when they're prayed or sung privately to God without interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:2,28), they edify the spirits of those who speak or sing them (1 Corinthians 14:4,14-15, Jude 1:20) to bless God and thank God (1 Corinthians 14:16). And when unintelligible tongues are prayed or sung out loud in a congregation and then Spiritually interpreted (1 Corinthians 12:10b-11), their interpretation edifies the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:5b,12,13,26). When Christians sing in tongues to God, they're singing the "spiritual songs" which the Bible distinguishes from psalms and hymns (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16).

The Bible sets no restrictions on how much believers can pray and sing to God in tongues out loud at home or silently in church (1 Corinthians 14:28) (just as regular praying can be done silently: 1 Samuel 1:13,17). Indeed, Paul the apostle prayed and sung to God in tongues in private more than anyone (1 Corinthians 14:18-19). But regarding church meetings, the Bible sets strict rules on speaking tongues out loud: They aren't to be spoken out loud in church meetings unless there's someone present who can Spiritually interpret them to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:28). And even when a tongues-interpreter is present, at the most only 3 people should in turn speak out loud in unknown tongues, which should then be interpreted to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:27). Everyone who has received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues, so he or she can edify others (1 Corinthians 14:12-13; 1 Corinthians 12:10b).

ThomasGuthler said in post 1:

You mentioned that Infants are already elect/nonelect so if they die so early (Abortion) most of them are lost?

Yes, for the elect are those individuals who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it's impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people can't understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who've received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect can't ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they're shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers so that on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

 

[ThomasGuthler]

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[Dale]

The last I heard, Christian Identity is a racist heresy.


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[ViaCrucis]

What do you think about the lost tribes and the theory that they became the europeans, a website about this theory is christianidentityrevealed2012 dot com.

I feel like I can answer this one. It's a lot of things that involve words that would get me in trouble and would be bleeped out by the forum's internal censor. So I'll go with steaming pile of diseased, rancid horse manure as a polite substitute.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ThomasGuthler]

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[ThomasGuthler]

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[ThomasGuthler]

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[ThomasGuthler]

Is it allowed as a man to pray with something on your head, what about someone must wear a hat because being bald and it´s winter? Women are not allowed to pray or prophesy without covered head?

1 Cor. 11/4-7
4 Every man praying or prophesying , having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven . 6 For if the woman be not covered , let her also be shorn : but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven , let her be covered . 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

Why are soldiers not told to lay down their weapons or quit their job complete? Are they allowed to kill in action?

Luke 3/14
And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

Is the sabbath still relevant today because it´s an perpetual covenant?

Exodus 31/16
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.


Leviticus 16/31
It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.

Is the New Jeruslalem really twelve thousand furlongs high or has it another meaning?

Revelation 21/16
And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed , twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

Is there a difference between „one body“ and „one flesh (kolleo, soma, suzeugnumi, sarka)?

1 Corinthians 6:16
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he , shall be one flesh.

 

[Bible2]

ThomasGuthler said in post 9:

Luke 3/14

Regarding John the Baptist saying "Do violence to no man" (Luke 3:14), under the Old Covenant, murder was forbidden (Deuteronomy 5:17), but killing in a war commanded by God was required (1 Samuel 15:3).

But under the New Covenant, which Christians are under (Matthew 26:28, Jeremiah 31:31), Christians are commanded to never harm anyone, even in self-defense (Matthew 5:39, Matthew 26:52). They are to be as harmless as doves (Matthew 10:16c). For Christians are commanded to love even their enemies (Matthew 5:44), and this means that they must do them no harm (Romans 13:10a, Matthew 7:12).

Christians don't employ physical weapons or any other violence against people (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12-18). Instead, Jesus at his first coming set the example for what believers are to do when they are physically attacked by people (1 Peter 2:19-23). They are to go meekly like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36), just like Jesus did (Isaiah 53:7). Obedient believers don't fear death (Hebrews 2:15), and don't love their lives unto death (Revelation 12:11b), but hate their lives in this world, so that they might retain eternal life (John 12:25, Mark 8:34-38). For obedient believers know that death is no loss for them, but gain (Philippians 1:21), as it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8), which is far better than remaining in this world (Philippians 1:23).

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, believers (not in hiding) will have to face martyrdom with patience and faith to the end (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), just as believers have always had to spiritually overcome in the face of martyrdom (e.g. Revelation 2:10-11).

ThomasGuthler said in post 9:

Exodus 31/16

Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, don't have to keep the sabbath of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For even the letter of the 10 commandments written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13) was part of the abolished Old Covenant Mosaic law's ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:6-7, Exodus 31:15b), which has been replaced by the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) ministration of the spirit (2 Corinthians 3:6-18), in which believers are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and keep the spirit (Romans 7:6) of all the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments by loving others (Romans 13:8-10).

Saying that believers have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath is just as wrong as saying that believers have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision (Acts 15:1-11). If believers keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath thinking that they have to because it is part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, then they are as fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4) as believers who keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision thinking that they have to because it is part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:2). They have become debtors to perform the letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:3). They have placed themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10).

So no believer should ever desire to go back into bondage under the letter of any part of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8). Believers need to keep the sabbath only in spirit, not in the letter (Romans 7:6). Believers must never judge other believers for not keeping the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath (Colossians 2:16), which letter was abolished on the New Covenant Cross of Jesus along with all the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Colossians 2:14-17, Ephesians 2:15-16, Romans 7:6, Hebrews 7:18-19, Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

For its letter was merely a shadow; now it all comes down to Jesus himself (Colossians 2:17). Jesus' New Covenant sabbath rest (Matthew 11:28-30), which all believers enter by faith (Hebrews 4:3-4), exceeds in righteousness (cf. Matthew 5:20) the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath. For under the New Covenant sabbath, Christians must cease from their own works every day of the week (Hebrews 4:3,10, Luke 9:23). And they can esteem every day of the week (Romans 14:5).

Also, Christians should be worshipping God every day of the week (Hebrews 13:15, cf. Psalms 145:2). And they should be meeting together every day of the week (Hebrews 3:13, Hebrews 10:25), at least in some fashion (Matthew 18:20), such as on this forum. The early church started assembling together on the Lord's day (commonly called Sunday) instead of on the sabbath (commonly called Saturday) because the Lord's day was the day on which Jesus rose from the dead: "no longer observing the sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him" (Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, chapter 9. Ignatius was a contemporary of John the apostle. Compare John's reference to "the Lord's day" in Revelation 1:10).

But it is not a requirement for Christians to assemble together only on the Lord's day, or to esteem the Lord's day above every other day of the week. It is also okay for Christians to choose to assemble together on the sabbath, because they esteem the sabbath above every other day of the week. It is also okay for Christians to esteem every day of the week. Christians are never to judge each other over this matter, but are simply to do what they believe Jesus wants them as individuals to do (Romans 14:4-13). So the point isn't for Christians to esteem days, but to focus on the person of Jesus himself (Colossians 2:16-17).

ThomasGuthler said in post 9:

Revelation 21/16

New Jerusalem is a literal city, 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), with literal pearly gates and literal streets of gold (Revelation 21:21). It is God the Father's house in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3, cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b,4, Revelation 2:7b, Revelation 22:2,14), in which house Jesus left to prepare a place for the church (John 14:2). All those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, have figuratively come to New Jerusalem by coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and which only the church comes under by believing in Jesus' New Covenant death on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), the very heart of the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The church looks for Jesus' return from heaven (Philippians 3:20), and the setting up of his physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). New Jerusalem won't descend from the 3rd heaven to the earth until after a new earth (a new surface of the earth) has been created (Revelation 21:1-4), sometime after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). The church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5). The Father and Jesus themselves will be the only temple in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22).

ThomasGuthler said in post 9:

1 Corinthians 6:16

Even pre-marital sex, and even just one time with even a prostitute (i.e. even with someone you are not in a "loving" or "committed" relationship with), results in one flesh in one sense (1 Corinthians 6:16), where not God, but sin has joined 2 people together physically. This sinful union of fornication can be broken and forgiven by repentance and confession to God (1 John 1:9; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

There is also another sense of one flesh, the marriage sense (Matthew 19:5), where it is God who joins 2 people together (Matthew 19:6) without any sin being involved (Hebrews 13:4a; 1 Corinthians 7:28). It is because of this God-joined union that divorce and remarriage is adultery under the New Covenant (Matthew 19:3-9).

 

[ThomasGuthler]

1. Why can taking the mark of the Beast not been forgiven, the only sin that can not been forgiven is Mark 3:22-30?

2. There´s a comment on the exception clause in the commentary section of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdNzkkA7kh0 (User "Video Kanal"), maybe you can look at the difference between divorce and "to put away"?

3. How can the king of the south (US) fight against the AC when they at the same time have to worship him?

4. Is point 4 of TULIP "irresistible grace" correct?

5. Is there some kind of purgatory (cf. Luke 12:59)?

 

[Bible2]

ThomasGuthler said in post 11:

Why can taking the mark of the Beast not been forgiven, the only sin that can not been forgiven is Mark 3:22-30?

The former (Revelation 14:9-11) could include a requirement that one also expressly blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29) means saying something against the Holy Spirit, which is unforgivable even if it is repented from (Mark 3:29), unlike all other blasphemies (Mark 3:28), such as blaspheming Jesus (saying something against Jesus), which is forgivable (like other sins) if it is repented from (Luke 12:10; cf. Luke 13:3, Hebrews 10:26-29).

An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29) would be to say that a miracle performed by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:28) was performed by an evil spirit (Mark 3:22,29,30). So it is possible for even a saved person to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, if, for example, he were to say that a Christian speaking in tongues today (by the Holy Spirit: 1 Corinthians 12:10b-11) is the work of an evil spirit (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

ThomasGuthler said in post 11:

. . . (User "Video Kanal"), maybe you can look at the difference between divorce and "to put away"?

The original Greek word (apoluo, G0630) translated as to "put away" in verses like Mark 10:11-12 means to divorce. That's why the same Greek word is translated elsewhere as "divorced" (Matthew 5:32b). Divorce and remarriage is adultery under the New Covenant (Matthew 19:3-9).

A husband isn't to divorce his wife (1 Corinthians 7:11b), and a wife isn't to divorce her husband (1 Corinthians 7:10). If a wife does divorce her husband, she must remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband (1 Corinthians 7:11). Regarding becoming reconciled, a Christian must always completely forgive everyone who has wronged him or her in any way (Mark 11:25), no matter how great the wrong and no matter how many times a wrong has been committed (Matthew 18:21-35). For if a Christian refuses to forgive anyone for anything, God will refuse to forgive that Christian for his or her own sins (Mark 11:26).

If a husband divorces a valid wife and marries another woman, he is committing adultery (Mark 10:11). And if a wife divorces a valid husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery (Mark 10:12). The exception for fornication (as distinguished from adultery) in Matthew 19:9 permits a husband to divorce a valid wife for having had pre-marital sex, and to marry another woman without his committing adultery. But this applies only to cases where a husband doesn't discover until after he is married that his newlywed wife isn't a virgin (cf. Deuteronomy 22:14, Matthew 1:19). There is no such pre-marital-sex exception granted to a wife. Also, there is no pre-marital-sex exception granted to a man who marries a divorced woman. If a man marries a woman divorced from a valid husband for any reason, he is committing adultery (Luke 16:18b).

1 Corinthians 7:15 means that a believing spouse isn't under the bondage of having to keep together a valid marriage to an unbeliever when the unbeliever is determined to get a divorce. But 1 Corinthians 7:15 doesn't mean that a believing wife, after being divorced by an unbelieving, yet valid, husband, can then marry someone else. For if a man marries a woman divorced from a valid husband, he is committing adultery (Luke 16:18b). But the scriptures don't forbid a man divorced from a valid wife to marry a 2nd, single, woman who isn't divorced from a valid husband, as long as it was his first wife (whether an unbeliever or believer) who divorced him. But then in God's eyes, he will be married to 2 women at the same time (so long as both remain alive), which, while no scripture requires is a sin in itself, because it is not the best situation, it disqualifies him from taking any leadership positions in the church (1 Timothy 3:2,12), based on the basic idea of 1 Timothy 3:5.

The now-abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6) permitted a divorced woman to marry someone else (Deuteronomy 24:2). But if her 2nd marriage ended, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade her to remarry her first husband (Deuteronomy 24:4). The New Covenant rules turn this on its head. For now a woman divorced from a valid husband can't marry anyone else (Mark 10:12, Luke 16:18b), but she can remarry her valid husband (1 Corinthians 7:11). It was because the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted a divorced woman to marry someone else, that Jesus, while the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was still in effect, could acknowledge the woman of Samaria's 5 marriages (John 4:18, assuming that all 5 didn't end in the death of her husband: cf. Luke 20:29-31). The New Covenant rules forbidding a woman divorced from a valid husband to marry anyone else didn't come into legal effect until Jesus' death on the Cross brought the New Covenant into legal effect (Hebrews 9:16-17, Matthew 26:28) and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6).

God never said that marriage would be easy. And he has set such strict, New Covenant rules regarding divorce and 2nd marriages (Matthew 19:9, Mark 10:12) that the apostles said that it is better not to get married at all (Matthew 19:10). Jesus answered them by saying that whoever can accept not getting married, and remaining celibate, should accept it (Matthew 19:11-12). The apostle Paul said the same thing, that unmarried celibacy is the best thing for a Christian if he or she can handle it (1 Corinthians 7:1,7-8,32-35). But if someone who hasn't been married can't contain himself or herself sexually, then he or she should get married in order to avoid fornication (1 Corinthians 7:2,9).

The strict New Covenant rules regarding divorce and 2nd marriages cut both ways, in that if believers find themselves in a miserable marriage which is an adulterous affair in God's eyes (Mark 10:11-12), they can escape their misery and their unrepentant sin at the same time by divorcing their invalid spouse. But if they find themselves in a very pleasant marriage which is an adulterous affair in God's eyes, then they have to be willing to give it up in order to escape their unrepentant sin, and thereby avoid ultimately losing their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Galatians 5:19-21, Luke 12:45-46).

The only unforgivable sin is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:28-29), such as ascribing a work of the Holy Spirit to Satan (Mark 3:22-30). Any other sin can be forgiven if it is repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9). Just as if believers find themselves living in the sin of an adulterous affair, they can't continue in that sin, so if they find themselves living in the sin of 2nd-marriage adultery (Mark 10:12, Matthew 19:9), they can't continue in that sin (or any other sin) and expect God's grace to forgive them (Hebrews 10:26-29, Galatians 5:19-21; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). They must break off with the 2nd, invalid spouse, even if they have had children with the 2nd spouse, just as married people must break off an adulterous affair even if they have had children as a result of that affair.

After breaking off an adulterous 2nd marriage, a wife must remain unmarried or be reconciled to her first, valid husband (1 Corinthians 7:11), if she has one. She can't marry someone else, even if, for example, that would help her and her children to escape poverty. For just as escaping poverty wouldn't justify the wife continuing in the sin of an adulterous affair with a man who financially supports her and her children (or wouldn't justify the sin of her becoming and remaining a well-paid prostitute), so escaping poverty wouldn't justify the sin of her entering into another case of 2nd-marriage adultery (Mark 10:12) with a man who financially supports her and her children.

Romans 3:31 means that Christians establish the Old Covenant Mosaic law not in its letter, but in its spirit (Romans 7:6), by loving others (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, Matthew 7:12). Part of loving others is warning them if they are living in sin (Revelation 3:19; 2 Thessalonians 3:15, Hebrews 3:13, James 5:19-20). The worst thing that a Christian can do is to coddle people who are living in sin, instead of sharing with them the hard (yet saving) truths of God's Word (2 Timothy 4:2-4, cf. Jeremiah 23:14,22,29). Telling the truth to people can sometimes hurt them, but that is better than deceiving them with something which makes them feel good (Proverbs 27:6, Proverbs 28:23). The reason that 2nd-marriage adultery (or any other sin) is so common in the church today is because so much of the church has stopped teaching and believing the hard truths of God's Word (2 Timothy 4:2-4, cf. Jeremiah 23:14,22,29).

 

[Bible2]

ThomasGuthler said in post 11:

How can the king of the south (US) fight against the AC when they at the same time have to worship him?

By the time of Daniel 11:40-45, which will be right near the end of the Antichrist's time, the U.S. could be included as part of the "king of the south" which will rebel against him. For the U.S., as well as other countries such as Russia, China, India, and Japan, may not ever come under the same level of control as the Middle East, North Africa, and Europe will during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. But the U.S., as well as all other countries of the earth, will still come under the hegemony of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-8, Matthew 24:9).

What could happen is that during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, the U.S. will be under complete martial law, still controlled by U.S. soldiers, but under the economic thumb of the Antichrist. For during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the U.S. government could go bankrupt and the U.S. dollar could become next to worthless in world markets, so that the U.S. will eventually become completely dependent on the Antichrist for its finances and trade.

The way that the U.S. could be considered a part of the "king of the south" in Daniel 11:40 is through the U.S.' current hegemony over Egypt, which is the king of the south in Daniel 11:5-17. At the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Egypt could be completely defeated and occupied, along with Israel, by an Iraqi Baathist General leading a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"). After this happens, the U.S. could take up the mantle of Egypt and Israel and attempt a counter-attack to liberate them from Baathist control. But this counter-attack could fail so miserably that the U.S. could forego any further attacks.

It is at this point that the Antichrist could arise on the world stage (Daniel 11:21) and "cut" a peace treaty with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a,27a) ruling Jerusalem, after the Antichrist has defeated that Messiah and his followers (Daniel 11:22-23a). About 7 years later, sometime after the legal end of the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8), not only could the U.S. as the "king of the south" try to attack the Antichrist (Daniel 11:40), but so could Russia, China, India, and Japan. For "tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many" (Daniel 11:44).

ThomasGuthler said in post 11:

Is point 4 of TULIP "irresistible grace" correct?

Yes, insofar as election to initial salvation is concerned (see the last section of post 2 above).

ThomasGuthler said in post 11:

Is point 4 of TULIP "irresistible grace" correct?

No, insofar as ultimate salvation is concerned.

For Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that truly saved people, people who have truly been sanctified by Jesus' sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these saved people are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and his sacrificial blood, and doing despite to the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of believers which are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood doesn't remit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a saved person can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

Some Christians think that Hebrews 10:26-29 isn't for Christians. But the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" saved people. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Saved people need to gather together and exhort each other so that no saved person will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

One way that a saved person could come to desire to commit sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable, and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin that he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures believers that there is no way that they can ever lose their salvation, even if they sin without repentance.

 

[ThomasGuthler]

The original Greek word (apoluo, G0630) translated as to "put away" in verses like Mark 10:11-12 means to divorce. That's why the same Greek word is translated elsewhere as "divorced" (Matthew 5:32b).

Some say in Mt. 5:32b the word apoluo translated as "divorced" instead as "put away" is only because [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"it is not possible, in any society, for a man to marry a woman who is put away without a bill of divorce. Therefore, Jesus had to be talking about a man who marries a woman that is put away WITH a bill of divorce (ie. a "divorced" woman)[/FONT]".

(See also the discussion in the comment section of the video of post #11)

 

[ThomasGuthler]

[FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT, serif]Jesus told us to pray to God the Father (Matthew 6:9-13), but we might also pray to Jesus (John 14:13-14). For Jesus is also God (Jn. 1:1,14, 10:30, 20:28, Titus 2:13, Philip. 2:6, Mt. 1:23).[/FONT]

[FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT, serif]What about praying to [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the Holy Spirit, is it possible?[/FONT][/FONT]

„[FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT, serif]Ezekiel 37:19 awaits a future fulfillment during the coming millennium, which will include believers descended from those in the kingdom of Israel who went into the Assyrian captivity (Ezekiel 37:21, 2 Kings 17:6,23).“[/FONT]

[FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT, serif][/FONT]


[FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT, serif]Will only the believing elect descendants from those in the kingdom of Israel who went into the Assyrian captivity be gathered at the beginning of the millennium (Ez. 37:21) or also the nonelect/unbelieving? Is this gathering based only on genetics?
[/FONT]

 

[Bible2]

ThomasGuthler said in post 15:

Will only the believing elect descendants from those in the kingdom of Israel who went into the Assyrian captivity be gathered at the beginning of the millennium (Ez. 37:21) or also the nonelect/unbelieving?

Not the latter, for only elect/saved Israelites will be included (Ezekiel 37:23-24, Ezekiel 20:38).

ThomasGuthler said in post 15:

Is this gathering based only on genetics?

No, for believing Gentiles are also considered to be part of Israel.

For just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

That is, all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

 

[ThomasGuthler]

The unsaved are already spiritually dead (1 John 5:12). For the scriptures themselves state quite emphatically that unbelievers do not have life (1 John 5:12-13) and will not see life (John 3:36).
Unbelievers have always been and will always be spiritually separated from Christ, for only believers become spiritually reconciled to God (Romans 3:25).

An eternally existing death-state is an eternal existence which is not immortality. The unsaved will have an eternal mortal existence. No one who was immortal, by definition, could suffer the second death; so the unsaved in the second death will not be immortal, even though they will have an eternal existence, in torment.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]When someone gets saved he becomes spiritually alive (spiritually immortal), so if he gets lost in the end he´s spiritually alive in the 2nd death in Hell. Unbelievers are dead in spirit, soul and body in Hell?
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
--



Is the [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]apostolic-succession-claim from the Catholic Church correct; maybe you can comment on this, are there Apostels today?
[/FONT]

 

[Rick Otto]

This is pretty interesting...
the idea that salvation is dependant on performance of ritual.

Via, you don't have to go to those people your glad not to be one of, to find the lost tribes theory. I believe it was a guy by the name of Herbert Armstrong that lead a group who believed it enough to put out a book on it, called "The U.S. & Britain in Prophecy".
I read it over 20 yrs ago, but I remember well, he did not descend into racism with it.
It's a pretty good theory on what happened in the diaspora of those tribes.

Since you have such a 'well formed' opinion of the Christian Identity people, I can't help but wonder how detailed a picture in your mind you have of what happened to those tribes?

 

[Bible2]

ThomasGuthler said in post 17:

When someone gets saved he becomes spiritually alive (spiritually immortal), so if he gets lost in the end he´s spiritually alive in the 2nd death in Hell. Unbelievers are dead in spirit, soul and body in Hell?

There are 2 literal hells, one temporary and one eternal. The temporary hell, called Hades in Greek (Luke 16:23) and Sheol in Hebrew (Psalms 86:13), is where the souls of unsaved people go when they die, and where they are tormented by flame (Luke 16:23-24). Before Jesus' first coming, Hades was also where the souls of saved people went when they died, but the part of Hades for the saved was a place of comfort (Luke 16:25).

After Jesus fulfilled the gospel by dying for our sins on the Cross and rising physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), he went to Hades and preached the fulfillment of the gospel to the souls there (1 Peter 3:19; 1 Peter 4:6), and then drew the souls of obedient believers there up with him when he ascended into heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 12:22-24). Since then, the souls of obedient believers go directly into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11).

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14), and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53). They will then reign on the earth with Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), all unsaved people of all times will be physically resurrected out of Hades and judged (Revelation 20:12-13), and then cast into the eternal hell, called the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:8), where they will be tormented along with Satan and his fallen angels in fire and brimstone forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11). This eternal hell is also called Gehenna in Greek (Luke 12:5, Mark 9:45-46) and Tophet in Hebrew (Isaiah 30:33).

Tophet was also the name of a place in ancient times called the valley of Hinnom (2 Kings 23:10), just outside the southern wall of Jerusalem (Joshua 15:8). "Gehenna" literally means "the valley (ge) of Hinnom". Just as the ancient Tophet/Gehenna was outside the wall of ancient Jerusalem, so the eternal Gehenna, the lake of fire, will be just outside the wall of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8). Saved people will go forth from New Jerusalem to witness the eternal torment of the unsaved in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:46, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11).

ThomasGuthler said in post 17:

When someone gets saved he becomes spiritually alive (spiritually immortal), so if he gets lost in the end he´s spiritually alive in the 2nd death in Hell. Unbelievers are dead in spirit, soul and body in Hell?

Some people believe in body/soul/spirit annihilation, in order to avoid the eternal torment of the lost (whether never saved, or saved and then lost). Such people usually also believe in "soul sleep", in order to avoid any preceding, temporal torment of the lost after death.

But only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21) or in fiery punishment in Hades (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

Sometime after the subsequent millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be physically resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which will be the 2nd death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will be tormented along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

--

Materialists think that consciousness can involve only that which is physical, and that it arises by having a certain number of neuronal connections in one's brain. So some scientists could be trying to create a supercomputer with enough neural network connections so that (they hope) it will become conscious. But the Bible shows that humans are more than just physical bodies (1 Thessalonians 5:23), and that human souls can have consciousness outside of their bodies, whether their bodies are still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or have died (Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 16:22b-23). Also, angels have consciousness, even though they are referred to simply as "spirits" (Hebrews 1:7).

So consciousness per se isn't something which requires a certain number of neuronal connections, but can be based on something even more fundamental: spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23). All consciousness ultimately being based on spirit would make sense, for God is an infinite Spirit and an infinite consciousness (John 4:24, Psalms 139:7-10, Jeremiah 23:24). And if spirit is the same as consciousness, then every kind of created thing can have some consciousness (Revelation 5:13, Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), for everything exists within God (Acts 17:28), having been brought into and maintained in existence by God's Spirit (Psalms 104:30).

A scientific way to think of this would be that the relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc^2, which means that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by, for example, the equation s=ec^3, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny photon of energy. And if all matter is based on energy, and all energy is based on spirit, and all spirit is consciousness, then all matter is ultimately based on consciousness, and so all matter can have some consciousness. This would explain how a puff of wind, a wave of water, a tree, or a mountain can obey a human command (Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), and how every kind of created thing can worship God (Revelation 5:13, Psalms 148).

ThomasGuthler said in post 17:

Is the apostolic-succession-claim from the Catholic Church correct; maybe you can comment on this, are there Apostels today?

There could be apostles today, and even non-Catholic ones. For Jesus himself is the highest apostle (Hebrews 3:1). And he can ordain people directly, whenever he wants to, without any other apostles (or even any other church members) having to be involved (e.g. Acts 26:13-20).

 

[Bible2]

Rick Otto said in post 18:

This is pretty interesting...
the idea that salvation is dependant on performance of ritual.

Some people feel that baptism can't be required for salvation, because baptism is a work, and salvation isn't based on works, but on faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). But baptism is a kind of circumcision (Colossians 2:11-13, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29). Just as Abraham, who is a model for Christians, was initially saved by faith alone, prior to his circumcision (Romans 4), so Christians are initially saved by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:2-5), prior to their baptism (Acts 8:36-38, John 20:31). But just as Abraham was ultimately saved by his works (James 2:21-24), so Christians will be ultimately saved by their works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b), which must include getting water-immersion (burial) baptized (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they are actually saved. And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, so a born-again person can't "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

That is, the Bible doesn't teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There is no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the book of Revelation and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). There is no assurance that they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't worship the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). There is no assurance that they won't choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

And all this is said not to engender any despair in believers, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus himself, which all believers must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for initially saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they can't do anything good (John 15:4-5).

Also, Jesus isn't a hard taskmaster. He will never give believers more work to do for him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if believers ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, it is not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work he is actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).