Question on CS Lewis

Open Heart

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it was just like one of those aesop fables where the lion is helped by the mouse.
You reject Aesop's fables? Are you kidding me?

I'm starting to think this is more than a challenged creative imagination, that this may be a damaged ability to think figuratively. That would be a serious deficit. It would distort your comprehension of a lot of different literature, including the Bible.
 
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Open Heart

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Surprised by Joy ..was that about his courtship with his wife.
It's his autobiography, his whole life. He talks about certain "experiences" he had, with a feeling that he labels "joy." This feeling, although intensely joyful, was a feeling of intense desire. This was the desire for God, the very desire of which is more joyful than anything else imaginable.
 
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Both stories though, i think while appealing, I would have issue with because they do in a way, glorify witchcraft. Fairy stories do the same thing. There is always a witch or a wizard in these stories and a heroine or hero often has to use some kind of counter witchcraft to break the spell. But none of them use what is most effective in casting out demons...the name of Jesus.
They contain magic as part of the laws of the imaginary universe. In the case of the LOTR for example you have angels which roam the earth in the form of "wizards", elves who have returned from eternity blessed with gifts, and of course demons who do similar.

In real life, of course, magic doesn't work, or we would have all sorts of people making it big in Las Vegas.
 
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Goodbook

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Well I finished reading C.S. Lewis A life by Alister McGrath.

I just want to write my thoughts here.
some of my questions were answered eg where he got the 'lion' from was a book he read by a friend called charles Williams called 'the place of the lion' which was a fantasy novel. The bio didn't give any details of what this book was actually about.
CS. Lewis then made the lion to be the Christ-like figure, but also it said he could have got the idea from the lion door knobs of his childhood church. The lion of Judah of course is the one prevailing to open the scroll, but he fails because only the lamb is worthy to open it. Aslan is turkish for 'lion'.

What struck me is the lack of reference to the Bible in all of C.S. Lewis work, like he never really quotes from it directly. If he did he would have known about the imagery of the lamb and how the lion directly opposes the lamb, even eats the lamb, but yea.

That puzzled me, but as he's a writer he can make christ like figures of whatever he wants, I just thought it was unusual that he would choose a lion, considering the fact that the lion is really described in the bible as like the devil prowling around in the new testament.

Another thing that the bio said about him was he had a double life, with his landlady Mrs Moore, as some sort of complex relationship with her that was never explicit, although it was said he was into Marquis de Sade?! One of his best friends, Greeves was homosexual, and when Lewis got married to an american divorcee, what happened was he didn't even tell his best friend, and he had to do it outside of the church, in a civil ceremony. The bio said that Joy basically seduced Lewis and he was a willing victim. It was a marriage of convenience. When she became his wife, she basically inherited his place along with his stepsons.
Then his brother became an alcoholic, and he didn't have a very good relationship with his dad, his mother died when he was young. And he never really went back to Ireland. Being brought up protestant in Ireland meant he never got the catholicism and was basically not considered irish.

I wanted to know a bit more about his faith and how it worked in his life apart from his intellectual mind and writings, but the book never really said anything about that. So I'm still a bit clueless. He didn't do things like start reading the Bible, or minister to the poor or sick or anything like that. He did write childrens books - Narnia, but he never had any children, which is a bit unusual. But then the biographer said he didn't know C.S. Lewis personally. So maybe he just didn't know. He was called 'the apostle to the skeptics' so maybe that was his big thing, to change some of the most hardened minds and point them to God, but I was hoping that more would have followed, as the first commandment says to love the Lord your God with all your mind, all your heart and all your strength..I thought that, with Lewis, it was all his mind...but not sure about the rest.
 
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Open Heart

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A good biography will tell the bad with the good. Looks like you cherry picked the bad out of the book, and ignored the good.

The lion of Judah IS the lamb. In the Voyage of the Dawntreader, Aslan appears as a lamb.

Don't expect Lewis to be a Fundamentalist -- he's not.

There is nothing wrong with having a complex relationship so long a one is chaste. I don't believe the sado-masochism stuff for a second. Lewis married Joy Davidman in a civil ceremony (the Church of England did not at that time marry divorcees) so that she could stay in the UK. Although it was a marriage of convenience, it is also true he loved her very much.
 
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The bio mentioned something about Pilgrims regress, which I haven't read although I have read Pilgrims Progress (excellent christian book).
It gave a synopisis basically it was about C.S. lewis journey of faith, that when he found God he then went back and found that everything he had learned that didn't make sense before now made sense because he was seeing it through a different lens.

I thought that was interesting.
For me though that held true for some things, like, when you start questioning what life is about, but that doesn't mean you go back and revisit everything and now justify it because you've now christianised it, I think some things you really need to let go of, because maybe they are childish concepts.

What CS lewis seems to have done is, go back, take these childish concepts and insert his new understanding into it. In the bio, it mentioned that E Nesbit had a similar entering another world thing in her books. And the same thing happened in JK Rowlings harry potter books with the platform 8 and 3/4 or whatever it was.
Another thing I found similar was it seemed a bit famous five ish, these children, dumped into a fantasy land, don't miss their parents at all.
CS Lewis appears to have written Narnia after Tolkien penned The Hobbit.
And apparently Tolkien wasn't that keen on narnia, actually he may have felt miffed that his fantasy tale was copied or reconstructed.

But as with JK Rowling, that world cannot exist without magic. But magic or sorcery is never seen as anything to be avoided. Its either good or bad, but there seems no alternative, both sides end up being as bad as each other, what you get is one side believes they are good, and so do the other side. But whats missing is both sides are not true, they BOTH believe a lie.
 
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I found this article.
I hadn't read all the narnia books but now I know why I didn't really bother with the rest..one book about witches and magic spells is bad enough. While C.S. Lewis personal life is troubling, there's a lot he didn't divulge in his writings and the people he associated with esp before his conversion. McGraths book makes it clear Lewis rewrote his personal history and omitted important points and mixed up dates. It was sad to find out how he died and that his death the same date JFK was assassinated. Another point made by mcGrath was how JK Rowlings books are in essence so similar, even professed christians think nothing of them. But we know that JK Rowling didn't need to publically identify as christian. However at the time of CS Lewis, it was fashionable to be so, as many writers were making a point of being publically christian ie. Graham Greene, Dorothy Sayers, Tolkien. Even if it was catholic. I mean CS lewis doesn't seem the born-again type the way you can be absolutely sure about. I think he invented a kind of 'mere christian' as some sort of moderate in between type religion, that anyone who was maybe educated could believe without ridicule.

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/narnia-trouble.htm
 
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Open Heart

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What CS lewis seems to have done is, go back, take these childish concepts and insert his new understanding into it.

And what we on this thread have tried to explain to you is that fairy tales and myths were never originally told to children. From Grimms to the LOTR, they are ADULT literature.

Another thing I found similar was it seemed a bit famous five ish, these children, dumped into a fantasy land, don't miss their parents at all.
Boarding schools were part of life for many English children. Missing parents happened at first, and was probably worse for some than others, but it passed.

And apparently Tolkien wasn't that keen on narnia, actually he may have felt miffed that his fantasy tale was copied or reconstructed.
Tolkien hated allegory and preferred pure myth. The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe is actually an allegory, not a myth. Tolkien's books are true myth.

But magic or sorcery is never seen as anything to be avoided.
In imaginary universes, magic is not always the same thing as sorcery. You have to respect the laws of the imaginary universe. They are different than here.

BTW, I don't remember any white magic being used in Narnia. Someone can correct me if I remember incorrectly.

In Tolkien's books, white magic is used by angels (wizards) and elves who have returned from eternity.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Oh, I love the monkey king!!!! Chinese mythology would be so dry without him.

Myths are never "just stories of false gods." They always teach deep truths. And they alway point to the one Myth that is indeed incarnate.

While Chinese traditional religion does tend to worship nature, this sort of religion always inevitably evolves into something quite different. In China, the idea of Tao came into being. CS Lewis would say that Tao was Logos. From Tao Te Ching #25:

Something mysteriously formed,
Born before heaven and earth.
In the silence and the void,
Standing alone and unchanging,
Ever present and in motion.
Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
I do not know its name.
Call it Tao.
For lack of a better word, I call it great.

He does, in Abolition of Man. Lewis speaks of the Way, specifically referring to Taoism itself as an example, as the base of human morality. Essentially that all Morality is from God.
 
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Surprised by Joy ..was that about his courtship with his wife. i cant remember if I had read it or it was quoted so much by other people that I had just read it in snippets anyway.
It was a loong time since I read Narnia as a child but I didnt go on to read the rest of the series. Even when it came out as film i thought, hmm maybe I ought to read it again but just didnt get round to it.

I do remember it having an impact on me as a child, mostly in terms of the wardrobe being a portal to another world in my imagination, but the story about aslan it didnt strike me as a christian story, it was just like one of those aesop fables where the lion is helped by the mouse. Of course good triumphs over evil, but it didnt lead me to think about God or anything.
Surprised by Joy was written before he even met his wife Joy. It is about his childhood and eventual conversion to Christianity, not about his wife or courtship at all.
 
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And what we on this thread have tried to explain to you is that fairy tales and myths were never originally told to children. From Grimms to the LOTR, they are ADULT literature.

Boarding schools were part of life for many English children. Missing parents happened at first, and was probably worse for some than others, but it passed.

Tolkien hated allegory and preferred pure myth. The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe is actually an allegory, not a myth. Tolkien's books are true myth.

In imaginary universes, magic is not always the same thing as sorcery. You have to respect the laws of the imaginary universe. They are different than here.

BTW, I don't remember any white magic being used in Narnia. Someone can correct me if I remember incorrectly.

In Tolkien's books, white magic is used by angels (wizards) and elves who have returned from eternity.
As has been said before, Lewis considered Narnia a Supposition, not Allegory as the Characters are not allegorised concepts such as reason etc. However, I agree it was not meant as pure myth like Lord of the Rings.
 
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Well I finished reading C.S. Lewis A life by Alister McGrath.

I just want to write my thoughts here.
some of my questions were answered eg where he got the 'lion' from was a book he read by a friend called charles Williams called 'the place of the lion' which was a fantasy novel. The bio didn't give any details of what this book was actually about.
CS. Lewis then made the lion to be the Christ-like figure, but also it said he could have got the idea from the lion door knobs of his childhood church. The lion of Judah of course is the one prevailing to open the scroll, but he fails because only the lamb is worthy to open it. Aslan is turkish for 'lion'.

What struck me is the lack of reference to the Bible in all of C.S. Lewis work, like he never really quotes from it directly. If he did he would have known about the imagery of the lamb and how the lion directly opposes the lamb, even eats the lamb, but yea.

That puzzled me, but as he's a writer he can make christ like figures of whatever he wants, I just thought it was unusual that he would choose a lion, considering the fact that the lion is really described in the bible as like the devil prowling around in the new testament.

Another thing that the bio said about him was he had a double life, with his landlady Mrs Moore, as some sort of complex relationship with her that was never explicit, although it was said he was into Marquis de Sade?! One of his best friends, Greeves was homosexual, and when Lewis got married to an american divorcee, what happened was he didn't even tell his best friend, and he had to do it outside of the church, in a civil ceremony. The bio said that Joy basically seduced Lewis and he was a willing victim. It was a marriage of convenience. When she became his wife, she basically inherited his place along with his stepsons.
Then his brother became an alcoholic, and he didn't have a very good relationship with his dad, his mother died when he was young. And he never really went back to Ireland. Being brought up protestant in Ireland meant he never got the catholicism and was basically not considered irish.

I wanted to know a bit more about his faith and how it worked in his life apart from his intellectual mind and writings, but the book never really said anything about that. So I'm still a bit clueless. He didn't do things like start reading the Bible, or minister to the poor or sick or anything like that. He did write childrens books - Narnia, but he never had any children, which is a bit unusual. But then the biographer said he didn't know C.S. Lewis personally. So maybe he just didn't know. He was called 'the apostle to the skeptics' so maybe that was his big thing, to change some of the most hardened minds and point them to God, but I was hoping that more would have followed, as the first commandment says to love the Lord your God with all your mind, all your heart and all your strength..I thought that, with Lewis, it was all his mind...but not sure about the rest.
Lewis did many things wrong before his conversion. Do we hold it against him that he was a sinner before finding Christ? Really? Are we that petty?

A few points I would make:
He signed some letters as Philomastix or Lover of the Whip as a student, but this was a long time before his conversion. Lewis always says he is a sinner in his works, and always says he is not a paragon of virtue. This was just part of his Cross to bear.
Likewise his relationship to Mrs Moore. A lot is written on it today, but Lewis never says anything happened, nor did contemporaries. It is more a post-mortem decision that he had, key word had, some sort of relationship with her as a student. He just stayed with her thereafter, and as he had promised to look after her to his friend in the war, her deceased son, this is actually laudable. (it is similar to the modern idea that Lewis Carroll was a paedophile, with no evidence whatsoever beyond conjecture)
Maybe something happened, maybe it didn't, but it isn't our place to luridly explore the sins of people before they became Christian in the first place.

Lewis and his brother both had a strained relationship with his father, as do many sincere Christians. Again this is of no relevance beyond feeling sad for them.

He married Joy in a civil ceremony, but then later had a Christian marriage performed, so I don't understand the relevance. This was on account of Anglican practice towards divorcees at the time. Also, Joy's sons didn't inherit Lewis's property as that all went to his 'sister', as had been contractually agreed upon when he bought his house. Joy's sons just became his literary executors.

Arthur Greeves was a Homosexual. Lewis explicitly repudiated homosexuality, but remained good friends with the man, who by the way was also a Christian. We can actually learn a lesson from him on not rejecting people, for hating the sin and not the sinner.

As to the Lion versus Lamb, this has been explained ad nauseam.

Lewis only became well-known due to his radio addresses during the War in Britain (which became Mere Christianity) and thereafter thanks to Screwtape Letters in America. He entered public consciousness as a Christian Apologist, not as a writer of fiction or anything. The fact that other fiction writers declared themselves Christian is irrelevant. He became famous for describing Christianity, not for some other reason. He wrote Narnia etc. thereafter.

If you read Mere Christianity, he states explicitly that it is only to enter the Hall of Christianity, but that the rooms of specific churches are where the true fellowship lies. Mere Christianity was explicitly not written as a substitute for any denomination, but an introduction to Christianity from where you are to seek your Church. As to using Anglican terminology, he was an Anglican. What do you expect? But he submitted it to multiple denominations who all agreed with what he had wrote, so it does not have an Anglican bias at all, merely a Christian one.
 
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I think he invented a kind of 'mere christian' as some sort of moderate in between type religion, that anyone who was maybe educated could believe without ridicule.
From the Introduction to Mere Christianity:

"I hope no reader will suppose that "mere" Christianity is here put forward as an alternative to the creeds of the existing communions—as if a man could adopt it in preference to Congregationalism or Greek Orthodoxy or anything else. It is more like a hall out of which doors open into several rooms. If I can bring anyone into that hall I shall have done what I attempted. But it is in the rooms, not in the hall, that there are fires and chairs and meals. The hall is a place to wait in, a place from which to try the various doors, not a place to live in. For that purpose the worst of the rooms (whichever that may be) is, I think, preferable.

It is true that some people may find they have to wait in the hall for a considerable time, while others feel certain almost at once which door they must knock at. I do not know why there is this difference, but I am sure God keeps no one waiting unless He sees that it is good for him to wait. When you do get into your room you will find that the long wait has done you some kind of good which you would not have had otherwise. But you must regard it as waiting, not as camping. You must keep on praying for light: and, of course, even in the hall, you must begin trying to obey the rules which are common to the whole house. And above all you must be asking which door is the true one; not which pleases you best by its paint and paneling.

In plain language, the question should never be: "Do I like that kind of service?" but "Are these doctrines true: Is holiness here? Does my conscience move me towards this? Is my reluctance to knock at this door due to my pride, or my mere taste, or my personal dislike of this particular door-keeper?"

When you have reached your own room, be kind to those Who have chosen different doors and to those who are still in the hall. If they are wrong they need your prayers all the more; and if they are your enemies, then you are under orders to pray for them. That is one of the rules common to the whole house."

It was not written to be anything other than an Introduction to Christianity. The fact that Atheists have found its descriptions compelling is perhaps a by-product of Lewis's Atheist past, but it was not written for that reason. Mere Christianity was based on his radio addresses which were given as a morale booster in the war as part of a series of programmes on Faiths and Morality.

Lewis rejected 'moderate in-between type' religion emphatically. He hated 'Christianity and water' as he called it.
 
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did you know him personally?

Just wondering.
well mere christianity was a primer for atheists that rationalised faith it wasn't anything really deeper.
As for his conversion of course everyone has a shady past before conversion. I just thought that the bio would say how he changed but it didn't really say much about it.

So it was disapppointing and also, he seemed to still lead a double life after it, like it did say that he urged an anglican priest to marry him after the civil ceremony was performed but the priest didn't want to, it was really against the church protocol for members to marry a divorcee.
 
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the whole hallway analogy is troubling because, Jesus specifically says he is the door, and that nobody gets to the Father except by him. And also narrow is the way and few are those that find it.

Unless he was referring to in my Father's house are many mansions. But still why didn't he just say Jesus is the door like it says in the bible.
 
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Also interesting was he basically gave up being a christian apologist after another lady demolished his arguments or perhaps subtly bested him in a debate which showed she knew a lot more about faith than he did.

Then he turned to myth.
 
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did you know him personally?

Just wondering.
well mere christianity was a primer for atheists that rationalised faith it wasn't anything really deeper.
As for his conversion of course everyone has a shady past before conversion. I just thought that the bio would say how he changed but it didn't really say much about it.

So it was disapppointing and also, he seemed to still lead a double life after it, like it did say that he urged an anglican priest to marry him after the civil ceremony was performed but the priest didn't want to, it was really against the church protocol for members to marry a divorcee.
He led no 'double life' after conversion. He led a normal life. Don't expect people to be saints, we are all sinners.

As to Mere Christianity, it was not nor was it meant to be a 'primer for atheists'. It was a description of basic Christianity, that is what it was written for. Its use as a apologetic for Atheists was not its intended use, but a happy circumstance. I find that book very deep indeed, discovering something new each time I read it, so I respectfully disagree with you.

Also interesting was he basically gave up being a christian apologist after another lady demolished his arguments or perhaps subtly bested him in a debate which showed she knew a lot more about faith than he did.

Then he turned to myth.

This is a commonly held misunderstanding. The lady in question, Elizabeth Anscombe was taking part in a debate on CS Lewis's work Miracles. She did not disagree with his conclusions, but showed how some of his reasoning was invalid, using Wittgenstein's linguistic arguments and thereby bested Lewis.

Firstly, Lewis was unfamiliar with Wittgenstein as he was a new philosopher at the time.
Second, he took his defeat with grace. He thanked her and admitted it and acted throughout like a gentlemen and later wrote her a sterling recommendation letter in 1950.
Thirdly, he then rewrote the chapter in question in Miracles and thanked her in the work.
Fourth, he wrote more apologetics after the debate than before it, its just that his most famous apologetics had already been written by this time.
Fifth, he was already utilising myth as in the Space Trilogy which had been written years before this debate and he had actively been commenting on myths before this. He already wrote of Myth becoming History at this time. Its just that his most famous 'mythic' work, Narnia, was written after this, which made people make conclusions which thorough investigations shows is not the case.

the whole hallway analogy is troubling because, Jesus specifically says he is the door, and that nobody gets to the Father except by him. And also narrow is the way and few are those that find it.

Unless he was referring to in my Father's house are many mansions. But still why didn't he just say Jesus is the door like it says in the bible.

You miss the point. Jesus is the Door as it is the House of Christianity, but once you are through the door, there are different denominations or 'rooms' awaiting you. He was actually using John 14:2 to build this analogy in the first place.

The bio seems to put forth the idea that Joy really took advantage of CS Lewis and sort of wormed her way into his life. But maybe he wanted it that way. It does give evidence to suggest she was a mercenary character.

All relationships in my experience has one partner worming their way into the other's life, I think this is a bit unfair to Joy, although she was quite unhappy that her sons would not inherit his house.

did you know him personally?

Just wondering.
No, but I know him from his works. These have meant a great deal to me and has led me to our Lord Jesus Christ. I don't consider him above the Bible or a personal relationship with God or any such things, but I have met no other author which has so much of God in his works, in my opinion.
 
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Oh ok.
But you seem quibbling at something that you just put in a different way that actually agrees with what I already wrote. Problem?
Not really. That he was always under the spell of myths is obvious. He never really gave them up. Which is pretty sad.

But he did give up christian apologetics. He never really took on board the ladys suggestions to be a better witness, or partnered in a ministry. He could have but he chose myths instead.

I can think of many christian apologists who point toward the bible and give evidence and good arguments for faith. CS lewis seems to do this in a way that actually leads AWAY from the Bible. Its just strange thats all.
 
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For example, ravis zacharias. He comes from an hindu background right? But he doesnt use krishna or any hindu deity and then suddenly argue that they are christ like figures.

Or says that allah is God almighty but a different interpretation.

When people try to find christ in everything, they are subscribing to new age beliefs and the occult.
 
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