Question for Catholics

[ebia]

Who you are to decide what the Grace of God can do or cannot do?

I'm not inclined to assume that the grace of God has done anything and everything anyone can possibly imagine or claim, however logically impossible that would seem to be, unless someone can give me some reason to think that's what he has done.

Reformers thought the the Grace of God is given, as a magic potion, to get the salvation.

No they didn't, but why don't you stick to addressing my question rather than engaging in 16th century polemic?

To be in paradise does not mean to be selfish and to not love for the brothers and sisters still on earth.

I didn't suggest it did.

And for sure God praises and makes possible the compassion of the saints for the brothers and sisters still on earth.

Again, I have not said otherwise, so don't create straw-men.

I find it quite interesting how almost everyone tries to answer the question they think I should have raised, not the questions I did raise.

You believe that the death will be defeated only at Christ second coming.

No, death was defeated at the resurrection. But the dead have not yet been raised. We live in the tension between those two events, and good Catholic theology recognises that as much as good Reformed theology.

 

[Christos Anesti]

with a potentially infinite number of requests simultaneously

There are only a finite number of people.

 

[ebia]

There are only a finite number of people.

I know, but a more technically accurate phrase got long-winded to keep typing.

Lets say there are 1.3 billion Catholics in the world, and that (on average) they make one request of Mary per day.

That's 1,300,000,000 requests per day she has to deal with.
54166667 per hour
902778 per minute
15046 per second
15 per milli second
or 67 micro seconds to hear and respond to each one - I hope all the good Catholics are keeping the length of their Marian request to less than 50 micro seconds per day so as not to take up more than their fair share of her time!

 

[MrPolo]

ebia....can you answer the question about time in the afterlife? Then we can go from there. I'll repost it here:

Ok, so we've solved the problem of omniscience. Now you have the problem of sheer volume of prayers to handle. Let's think this through. First, do you believe those in heaven are outside of time? Or do you think they go through 24 hour days over and over like we do?

 

[a_ntv]

No, death was defeated at the resurrection. But the dead have not yet been raised. We live in the tension between those two events, and good Catholic theology recognises that as much as good Reformed theology.

With the Resurrection of our Lord and God Jesus Christ, who has already defeated the death, there is no more any barrier or incommunicability between us and the saints.
But already now the heavens are opened.

At Christ second coming the victory of Christ will be made evident and the bodies will resurrect.

But before the second coming the saints are not sleeping, as some Protestants say (for us Catholics it is a heresy). Not at all: they are awake and already joy for the presence of the Lord. The curtain of the temple's veil has been broken: already now it is possible the communication between earth and heavens.

 

[ebia]

ebia....can you answer the question about time in the afterlife? Then we can go from there. I'll repost it here:

Ok, so we've solved the problem of omniscience.

We haven't solved any problem from my perspective, but let's carry on anyway.

Now you have the problem of sheer volume of prayers to handle. Let's think this through. First, do you believe those in heaven are outside of time? Or do you think they go through 24 hour days over and over like we do?

If they are 'outside of time' then for them there is no sequence, not time in which to hear and then respond. All our human language, which is thoroughly rooted in time becomes inadequate to discuss them unless we drop back to mathematics (which might be a bit tricky). All the pictures of heaven we are given in, say, Revelations have things happening which necessarly implies time. So unless you have some reason for supposing they don't experience time I'll provisionally go for the answer 'yes, they are inside time'.

(Apologies for having overlooked your post before, BTW. Please draw my attention to it any time I appear to do that.)

 

[ebia]

With the Resurrection of our Lord and God Jesus Christ, who has already defeated the death, there is no more any barrier or incommunicability between us and the saints.
But already now the heavens are opened.

At Christ second coming the victory of Christ will be made evident and the bodies will resurrect.

But before the second coming the saints are not sleeping, as some Protestants say (for us Catholics it is a heresy). Not at all: they are awake and already joy for the presence of the Lord. The curtain of the temple's veil has been broken: already now it is possible the communication between earth and heavens.

Rather than get off topic addressing some of the inaccuracies of the above, I will limit myself to pointing out that it doesn't address either or the two questions posed - you are still giving (not very good) stock answers to (not very good) stock questions, not engaging with either of the actual questions I offer.

Unless you choose to (a) engage with one or both of my actual challenges and (b) stop slinging around words like heresy and generalised attacks on Protestants and/or the Reformation then I'm not very interested in what you have to say.

 

[MrPolo]

If they are 'outside of time' then for them there is no sequence, not time in which to hear and then respond. All our human language, which is thoroughly rooted in time becomes inadequate to discuss them unless we drop back to mathematics (which might be a bit tricky). All the pictures of heaven we are given in, say, Revelations have things happening which necessarly implies time. So unless you have some reason for supposing they don't experience time I'll provisionally go for the answer 'yes, they are inside time'.

Let me ask it a different way. Are they in eternity?

 

[ebia]

Let me ask it a different way. Are they in eternity?

What exactly do you mean by 'eternity'?

 

[MrPolo]

What exactly do you mean by 'eternity'?

Why don't you just tell me what happens when a justified person dies. Where is he? Does he know he's with God?

 

[ebia]

Why don't you just tell me what happens when a justified person dies. Where is he? Does he know he's with God?

As I think I said before, scripture is pretty vague and ambiguous about what happens between death and resurrection. It's not where our focus is meant to be. Our focus needs to be where scripture's is - what God has done and is doing in the world, the Kingdom in anticipation, and the life of the age to come with the Kingdom in its fullness after the final resurrection.

Where are they? "With Christ".
Do they know they are with Christ? presumably, since they know it in anticipation before they die.

 

[Hairy Tic]

Hey, I am not a Catholic and I have a question regarding the Virgin Mary. Please correct me if I am wrong but is it true that Catholics not only pray to God but to Mary as well? If this is true, then doesn't it break the 1st commandment? "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

By no means am I trying begin an argument but when I heard this I was concerned and would greatly appreciate an explanation.

God bless!

## If Mary were another deity, then it would. She is not, for she is a creature, as we are, no more - so it does not.

And yes, it is true - we do pray to her; as to the blessed & wonderfully graced creature of God she is. IOW, as to a Saint; that being what she is. But not to her as though she were God, for that she is not, nor ever could be.

"We believe in One God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of Heaven and Earth;
and of all things
visible and invisible.
And in Jesus Christ..."

- not in thousands of gods or even several, or three, or two - but in One Alone.

I'm sorry you were concerned - but thanks

 

[Hairy Tic]

5The living at least know they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, nor are they remembered. 6Whatever they did in their lifetime--loving, hating, envying--is all long gone. They no longer have a part in anything here on earth
Ecclesiastes 9: 5-6

If that is so, then explain the catholic interpretation of this verse.

## OK

• Ecclesiastes - BC
• Practice of prayer to Mary and the other Saints - AD
• In between the two items listed: The Incarnation of God-with-us, as a man like us; & the results of this in His Life, His saving Death, Life-giving Resurrection & Glorious Ascension.

The Living Reality of the Fact of God-with-us takes precedence over the OT, which is a body of writings; not the Life of God-with-us. The works of Christ - such as His Saints - cannot be confined to a book written before Christ.

I am not saying that you worship Mary, I go to catholic school, and have been in it my whole life, so I know that is not the case.
My problem is that you pray to her or any other person who is dead,

## Unless you are saying she is damned - & I'm sure you aren't - to call her "dead" makes as much sense as calling the Risen Christ a Zombie; it is also a complete denial of 1 Timothy 6.10.

What sort of education are you getting, if you can think she is dead ? I never went to a Catholic school.

the bible says they are apart of nothing here on this earth,

## No - a book from before Christ says that. Big difference. Unless Jesus is so insignificant as not to have had any effect on the world...

so why pray to her, when God gave us his son to break down all the obstacles to him. Numerous times it says we can go to Jesus DIRECTLY, it never says he is too busy so you can pray to Mary to get to him.
I understand why you honor her, and that is fine with me. But praying to her is crossing the line.

## Devotion and prayer to her, & love of her, are nothing if not part of the "rational worship" (Romans 12:2) we owe her God & Son. To go to Mary is to go to Jesus - where else would she be, if not with Him Who is her very Life ? To go to any Saint, is to go to Him. They are no more separable from Him, than the branches are from their root - & He is the True Vine, they are the branches. There is no opposition between Him and the Saints who are His fruit & branches; & no separation

 

[Hairy Tic]

Hey, I am not a Catholic and I have a question regarding the Virgin Mary. Please correct me if I am wrong but is it true that Catholics not only pray to God but to Mary as well? If this is true, then doesn't it break the 1st commandment? "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

By no means am I trying begin an argument but when I heard this I was concerned and would greatly appreciate an explanation.

God bless!

## Mary is not a god - so prayer to her does not have anything to do with the commandment, which was given to the Israelites. The Israelites did not have Saints - Catholics & others do.

Does that help ?

 

[Hairy Tic]

Worship is given only to God
If you go to a catholic Mass, you can see that all the prayers are to God. (never been to a catholic mass?)

We ask Mary to pray Christ for us.
We ask also friends and other people to pray for us.
That because we feel the Church like a community where anyone helps the other.
Also in many protestant services sometime the pastor ask all to pray for some particular necessity. This is not against the 1 commanament.
Only God can give the grace. But anyone can ask.

Mary is the first in the Church.
" Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. (from Luke)
Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb. (also from Like)
Holy Mary, mother of God,
pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death"

Orthodoxs attitude towards Mary is exactly the same of Catholic

## "Adoration" might be a better word than "worship" - the distinction between God & His Saints is essential, since we honour both, and avoid confusing the created with their Creator.

 

[Hairy Tic]

5The living at least know they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, nor are they remembered. 6Whatever they did in their lifetime--loving, hating, envying--is all long gone. They no longer have a part in anything here on earth
Ecclesiastes 9: 5-6

If that is so, then explain the catholic interpretation of this verse.

I am not saying that you worship Mary, I go to catholic school, and have been in it my whole life, so I know that is not the case.
My problem is that you pray to her or any other person who is dead, the bible says they are apart of nothing here on this earth, so why pray to her, when God gave us his son to break down all the obstacles to him. Numerous times it says we can go to Jesus DIRECTLY, it never says he is too busy so you can pray to Mary to get to him.
I understand why you honor her, and that is fine with me. But praying to her is crossing the line.

## Ecclesiastes is in the Old Testament - Christians have the NT as well, because Christ has rendered the OT obsolete. I don't care what the OT says - it is pre-Christian, so it cannot override Christ. He has changed everything - so the OT is unimportant.

We pray to the Saints because they are alive in Christ - they cannot be dead, unless He is dead. If He lives by the life of the Spirit, so do they, because they are members of His Body. Their intecession is His, so if Ne prays for us, so do they.

Yes, we can go to Him directly - & we can go to His Saints equally directly.

I'm Catholic too, & I don't believe in that idea so many Protestants have about any practice being sinful that is not commanded in the Bible.

 

[Hairy Tic]

I'm not Catholic, and I'm not trying to start an argument either. So don't think I'm attacking Catholics, but why do Catholics worship and pray to saints? Like St. Anthony for protection and so forth. It's breaking the first commandment in my opinion. I know my question is like that of the OP's, but no one asked about saints yet and I saw someone give an answer to the OP's question already. Thanks!!

## Because we enjoy their company, is why

If we can speak only to Christ, all friendships on earth are at an end

 

[Hairy Tic]

Sorry, I'm not sure how such evidence could even work. "Ethel asked St Jude to pray for her lost handbag, and then found it" doesn't cut quite stack up as evidence. (And yes, that's deliberately trite to make the point.)


That's not in question. What's being challenged is the ability of those "in heaven" to simultaneously hear the specific requests of a potentially unlimited number of people and to specifically respond.

That corporately the communion and mutual praying for each other goes on isn't the challenge.

## Have you read what Origen says on the intercession of the Saints in Heaven in his treatise "On Prayer" ?

Maybe they know, because Christ, members of whose Body in Heaven they are, knows.

I agree there are dangers, & some of the late mediaeval abuses were striking (IMO the use of statues of St.Joseph to sell houses today is very bad) - but to that I would reply that God is dangerous, the Bible is dangerous, the ordained ministry has its dangers, the Christian life bristles with dangers: so the remark that there are dangers in the veneration & invocation of the Saints is not a decisive objection.

 

[Hairy Tic]

Sorry, but that seems to be trying to make a case where there isn't one. Communion with Benedict is not dependent upon him being able to individually hear and respond to a potentially infinite number of simultaneous requests so neither is communion with those "who have gone before".

It's dependent upon us being able to corporately join our prayers with theirs and vice-versa, but that's all.

## Which they and we do in the Liturgy.

"communion with those "who have gone before"" is not dependent on anything but the sharing of life in Christ. But the conditions of union & the manifestion of union, & the reality of it, are three conceptually distinct things.The mode of union we have with the Pope, can't be made into the mode of union we have with the Saints on Heaven.

 

[Ave Maria]

Hey, I am not a Catholic and I have a question regarding the Virgin Mary. Please correct me if I am wrong but is it true that Catholics not only pray to God but to Mary as well? If this is true, then doesn't it break the 1st commandment? "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

By no means am I trying begin an argument but when I heard this I was concerned and would greatly appreciate an explanation.

God bless!

Yes, we pray to God and also to Mary as well as other saints. And no, that does not violate the first commandment. Please see these articles:

Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers

Saint Worship? | Catholic Answers