Question about some of the OT killings

[RDKirk]

So youre saying that the harsh laws of Leviticus only existed on the books to scare people, but werent actually enforced?

No, I didn't say that. I said that if US courts used the same rules of evidence, US prisons would be nearly empty.

I suspect, though, that the Israelites condemned far fewer people per capita to death than the US does.

I've heard a similar argument regarding the wars of the Old Testament-that a lot of the language people used when they wrote in ancient Hebrew was figurative and was only written to sound dramatic. What exactly were the rules of evidence of the Mosaic Law?

In most cases, conviction requred two or three eye witnesses to the crime. In a few specific cases, circumstantial evidence was admissible, but only where specified and, interestingly, evidence for positive defense was usually easily fabricated.

Also, the penaties for perjury were as severe as that of the alleged crime, and perjury by the act itself produced sufficient evidence for immediate conviction. A trial might end with the accusers being excuted rather than the accused.

There is in the Apocrypha, btw, one trial record in the story of "Daniel and Susanna." It's the first recorded case of examining witnesses separately and resulted in the successful defense of the accused.

 

[jbearnolimits]

It was not perfect and would never make anyone who kept it perfect.

Just thought I would point out that this is something a lot of people believe the Bible says, but it does not. The law IS perfect, WE are not.

The belief comes from a misunderstanding of a few verses in Hebrews and one in Romans.

Hebrews 7:11

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:19

For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Romans 8:3

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Note that these verses show that the law could not make us perfect. But it does not say that the law itself was not perfect. Romans 8:3 also says this in another way. It says that the law could not make us perfect because WE are not perfect and able to follow it.

For proof that the law is actually perfect we can look at a simple scripture that says very clearly that it is.

Psalm 19:7

The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Now I also encourage everyone to read what I have written here before you ask if we are under the law as Christians: Grace Or The Law - What Are We Under

 

[RDKirk]

Just thought I would point out that this is something a lot of people believe the Bible says, but it does not. The law IS perfect, WE are not.

The belief comes from a misunderstanding of a few verses in Hebrews and one in Romans.

Hebrews 7:11

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:19

For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Romans 8:3

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Note that these verses show that the law could not make us perfect. But it does not say that the law itself was not perfect. Romans 8:3 also says this in another way. It says that the law could not make us perfect because WE are not perfect and able to follow it.

For proof that the law is actually perfect we can look at a simple scripture that says very clearly that it is.

Psalm 19:7

The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Now I also encourage everyone to read what I have written here before you ask if we are under the law as Christians: Grace Or The Law - What Are We Under

Well, Hebrews 8 says explicitly that the Mosaic Law was not perfect and is now obsolete:

But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
...
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

 

[Neogaia777]

Well, Hebrews 8 says explicitly that the Mosaic Law was not perfect and is now obsolete:

But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
...
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

I am of the Belief that the ten commandments were "perfect" as if they are saying "this is what you will/will not do or don't do, if you are "perfect" in Love" As for the rest of the mosaic law, laws had to keep being added because of sin, and were therefore probably not perfect, (and unecessary after Jesus and the new covenant)

But, As for the rest of the mosaic law, laws had to keep being added because of sin, and were therefore probably not perfect but merely addressed some sort sin issue.. and the law of born again heart and conscience is the new covenant law...

God Bless!

 

[ALoveDivine]

I am of the Belief that the ten commandments were "perfect" as if they are saying "this is what you will/will not do or don't do, if you are "perfect" in Love" As for the rest of the mosaic law, laws had to keep being added because of sin, and were therefore probably not perfect, (and unecessary after Jesus and the new covenant)

But, As for the rest of the mosaic law, laws had to keep being added because of sin, and were therefore probably not perfect but merely addressed some sort sin issue.. and the law of born again heart and conscience is the new covenant law...

God Bless!

I would even go so far as to say the 10 commandments are part of the Old Covenant law done away in Christ. For example, few would today say that observing the Sabath is binding on Christians.

I believe we now have two commandments; love God and love people.

 

[Neogaia777]

I would even go so far as to say the 10 commandments are part of the Old Covenant law done away in Christ. For example, few would today say that observing the Sabath is binding on Christians.

I believe we now have two commandments; love God and love people.

No (as to any written law being binding on Christians), the only commandments (laws) we have today is yes, Love, but as for deciding on a matter the only law binding to a christian is to follow a born again heart and conscience, as God said about the New Covenant, that he would "write his law" on their (born again) hearts (consciences)...

God Bless!

 

[fozzy]

The ten commandments along with the rest of the Mosaic law have been done away with and replaced by something better. God does not write the commandments in our heart. He gives us the Holy Spirit who writes the law of love into our heart. There is no 'thou shalt not' in love for God's love can do all things.

The old commandments are what is referred to as carnal commandments and only have jurisdiction over sinners. Those who have been born again and received the Holy Spirit are not bound by the carnal commandments anymore. They now have the Holy Spirit to teach them right from wrong.

Paul further broke this down into the letter and spirit of the law. The letter being the old commandments that could never make us righteous and God's agape love which is the spiritual aspect of the law. We are still under the law of God but it is not the old one but the new one which is better.

 

[fozzy]

For proof that the law is actually perfect we can look at a simple scripture that says very clearly that it is.

Psalm 19:7

The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Old covenant quotes do not trump new covenant quotes.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom. 7:6

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 2Cor. 3:6-8

The old covenant with all it's bondage is dead except for those who constantly want to go back to it and climb up to heaven some other way.

 

[RDKirk]

I am of the Belief that the ten commandments were "perfect" as if they are saying "this is what you will/will not do or don't do, if you are "perfect" in Love" As for the rest of the mosaic law, laws had to keep being added because of sin, and were therefore probably not perfect, (and unecessary after Jesus and the new covenant)

But, As for the rest of the mosaic law, laws had to keep being added because of sin, and were therefore probably not perfect but merely addressed some sort sin issue.. and the law of born again heart and conscience is the new covenant law...

God Bless!

However, the writer of Hebrews does not say that. He makes no division of the 10 Commandments from the rest of the covenant. Nor does Paul, nor do any other apostles, nor does Jesus Himself. Nowhere does anyone in the NT make a distinction of the 10 Commandments from the whole of the "Law and the Prophets."

 

[RDKirk]

Psalm 19:7

The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

But the Mosaic Law did not convert the soul. It did not, for instance, soften men's hearts enough for them to discard divorce.

Hmmm. The psalmist might have actually been looking to a future, more perfect law than that given by Moses.

 

[Sammy-San]

Old covenant quotes do not trump new covenant quotes.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom. 7:6

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 2Cor. 3:6-8

The old covenant with all it's bondage is dead except for those who constantly want to go back to it and climb up to heaven some other way.

What exactly does it mean that the Old Covenant was "bondage"? I've heard people in church talk about the Old Law and quoting a bible verse saying that the old law brought people under bondage, but what exactly does that mean? Why does the Bible say that Christians are delivered from the old law?

 

[Sammy-San]

The Israelites, as I said before, were a savage Bronze Age people. The Mosaic Law brought them a long way toward being civilized. The elements that you see as harsh actually moderated their earlier behavior.

Formerly, a groom who thought he had been duped into marrying a non-virgin would have murdered her immediately and declared war on her family.

The "eye for an eye" rule meant only an eye for an eye--no more revenge than the damage originally suffered--not the endless blood feud they would normally have fought over an eye.

A man before had no limits on how he might abuse and divorce his wife--the Mosaic Law set limits. The same was true of slavery--the Mosaic Law set limits where before there had been none.

Have you read the OT regarding how the sons of Jacob destroyed an entire city after their sister was date-raped by the city's prince? Under the Mosaic Law, that would have been prohibited. The man would have been able to marry her as he desired (and she, by that time, because she was being offered the life of a princess).

The law did not attempt to bring them to moral perfection--at that point in time, they could not have been brought to moral perfection. That was left for a later covenant that would require a higher degree of performance.

There is not a moral dilemma. The Church wasn't built in a day.

But why didnt God just say, "I dont agree with the barbaric practices of the Israelites (IOW, command Moses to make the Israelites stop their barbaric practices)" in order to stop their actions altogether? Why did God simply want to moderate their barbarism instead of (for lack of better word) "tame" it and make them civilized?

The Mosaic Law verses (like the Deuteronomy verse about a bride's virginity, etc), could very easily be misinterpreted. Not everybody is an expert on the history of the Bronze Age Israelites and how brutal their culture was. For whatever reason God chose to moderate and tolerate their barbarism, why didnt God specifically mention in the Bible that the Mosaic Law was created to moderate their behavior (and it had moral compromises in it)? As I said before, people who arent knowledgable on the subject of the ancient Israelite culture could easily misinterpret those verses to think God condoned their cultural practices and behavior. It confuses me why exactly God didnt spell out in the Bible, the reason he ordained those laws to Moses.

What do you think?

 

[RDKirk]

It confuses me why exactly God didnt spell out in the Bible, the reason he ordained those laws to Moses.

What do you think?

Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. -- Matthew 19

Matthew 5:20-48--the Sermon on the Mount--is a lengthy repudiation of the moral compromises of the Mosaic Law.

 

[fozzy]

What exactly does it mean that the Old Covenant was "bondage"? I've heard people in church talk about the Old Law and quoting a bible verse saying that the old law brought people under bondage, but what exactly does that mean? Why does the Bible say that Christians are delivered from the old law?

Peter said referring to the law that it was a yoke of bondage that we nor our fathers were able to bear - Acts 15:10

Those who grew up in an overly religious household where they were forced to keep all the rules have some understanding of why the law is a yoke of bondage. Have you ever wondered why pastors kids are the most rebellious? Because they were forced to do things that their heart was not into. God desires the service of love. Anything else will not be accepted.

 

[NorrinRadd]

The Bible says God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Why would time period determine right and wrong and morality for God? The Old Testament is very similar to the Koran (stoning punishments for petty victimless crimes, extreme violence), yet how is the Old Testament somehow moral because it happened thousands of years ago? A lot of Christians I know criticize middle eastern countries and say that "they are so barbaric because they stone women and gays, etc", yet that is the same thing that Moses and others did in the old testament.

Xians who take the view that such harsh practices are inherently evil and use that view as a means to criticize Islam are foolish and ignorant.

 

[jbearnolimits]

For some reason I am not able to quote at the moment. But in the reply of RDKirk to my earlier post I have something to say. You said that the book of Hebrews says expressly that the law was not perfect. Which totally ignores what I had shared that you were replying to.

Because I shared the verses in Hebrews you speak of and then I gave the reason for the confusion. You seem to have totally ignored all of it and simply said no you're wrong.

I won't post the verses again, you can go back it you need to in this thread to see them. But here was my answer to this thought:

"Note that these verses show that the law could not make us perfect. But it does not say that the law itself was not perfect. Romans 8:3 also says this in another way. It says that the law could not make us perfect because WE are not perfect and able to follow it."

As for your thought here:

"But the Mosaic Law did not convert the soul. It did not, for instance, soften men's hearts enough for them to discard divorce.

Hmmm. The psalmist might have actually been looking to a future, more perfect law than that given by Moses."

I have this to say in reply:

Galatians 3:24

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The law showed us our sin and pushed us to our savior. Therefore it DOES convert the soul, when it is used properly.

And Jesus used it properly...Jesus was perfect. Jesus lived under that same law. Even He said He didn't come to destroy the law, but to establish it.

Has anyone here read the answer Jesus gave as to what commands were the greatest? He said to love God and man. He also said something else. He said ALL of the law and the prophets hang on those 2.

The original law has never been done away with. I know, I know, you are about to quote those verses again that speak of the law being ready to vanish and that we are not under it anymore.

But let me read you the rest of the verses I have given above:

Galatians 3:25

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Under the law we were condemned because of OUR sin. Once it shows us our need for Jesus we can come out of that condemnation through faith in Him. The law is perfect and we are not. The bondage of the law (fear and death) is removed from those who walk in faith. But for those who do not, the law is still very much active.

Now one more thing I want to address:

You said:

"There is no 'thou shalt not' in love for God's love can do all things"

Will Holy sin? Will love steal from someone, kill them, and blaspheme itself? The law of love is the same... the only difference is that Jesus has set us free from the power of death, not from the righteousness of the law. Because though we could not obey it in OUR weakness, and needed Jesus, it is still righteous.

 

[Sammy-San]

Xians who take the view that such harsh practices are inherently evil and use that view as a means to criticize Islam are foolish and ignorant.

So youre saying that when Middle eastern countries do it now, theyre evil, but when Moses did it, it was okay? Why does time period determine morality? You're saying that those harsh practices arent inheritley evil, which implies that they are evil in some situations, but not others.

Is what I say about your opinion true, or am I misrepresenting your stance on this issue?

 

[fozzy]

For some reason I am not able to quote at the moment. But in the reply of RDKirk to my earlier post I have something to say. You said that the book of Hebrews says expressly that the law was not perfect. Which totally ignores what I had shared that you were replying to.

Because I shared the verses in Hebrews you speak of and then I gave the reason for the confusion. You seem to have totally ignored all of it and simply said no you're wrong.

I won't post the verses again, you can go back it you need to in this thread to see them. But here was my answer to this thought:

"Note that these verses show that the law could not make us perfect. But it does not say that the law itself was not perfect. Romans 8:3 also says this in another way. It says that the law could not make us perfect because WE are not perfect and able to follow it."

As for your thought here:

"But the Mosaic Law did not convert the soul. It did not, for instance, soften men's hearts enough for them to discard divorce.

Hmmm. The psalmist might have actually been looking to a future, more perfect law than that given by Moses."

I have this to say in reply:

Galatians 3:24

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The law showed us our sin and pushed us to our savior. Therefore it DOES convert the soul, when it is used properly.

And Jesus used it properly...Jesus was perfect. Jesus lived under that same law. Even He said He didn't come to destroy the law, but to establish it.

Has anyone here read the answer Jesus gave as to what commands were the greatest? He said to love God and man. He also said something else. He said ALL of the law and the prophets hang on those 2.

The original law has never been done away with. I know, I know, you are about to quote those verses again that speak of the law being ready to vanish and that we are not under it anymore.

But let me read you the rest of the verses I have given above:

Galatians 3:25

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Under the law we were condemned because of OUR sin. Once it shows us our need for Jesus we can come out of that condemnation through faith in Him. The law is perfect and we are not. The bondage of the law (fear and death) is removed from those who walk in faith. But for those who do not, the law is still very much active.

Now one more thing I want to address:

You said:

"There is no 'thou shalt not' in love for God's love can do all things"

Will Holy sin? Will love steal from someone, kill them, and blaspheme itself? The law of love is the same... the only difference is that Jesus has set us free from the power of death, not from the righteousness of the law. Because though we could not obey it in OUR weakness, and needed Jesus, it is still righteous.

This is off topic and has been answered, you just don't like the answer. The verses you quoted in Hebrews don't say specifically say that the law is faulty or imperfect but many others do.

- the old covenant is faulty with the law and has passed away
- the letter killeth and was written in stone as a ministry of death
- Peter not Paul said the law was a yoke of bondage

And yes, love does sometimes break the commandments.

- despise not the thief when he steals because he is hungry

Your black and white understanding of sin is faulty. Sin is much deeper than the commandments could ever show. It is a broken relationship with our Creator not a worthless violation of dead law.

 

[jbearnolimits]

This is off topic and has been answered, you just don't like the answer. The verses you quoted in Hebrews don't say specifically say that the law is faulty or imperfect but many others do.

- the old covenant is faulty with the law and has passed away
- the letter killeth and was written in stone as a ministry of death
- Peter not Paul said the law was a yoke of bondage

And yes, love does sometimes break the commandments.

- despise not the thief when he steals because he is hungry

Your black and white understanding of sin is faulty. Sin is much deeper than the commandments could ever show. It is a broken relationship with our Creator not a worthless violation of dead law.

Hmmm...I am seeing the same kind of reasoning an atheist gives when he can no longer defend his position here.

When an atheist is asked what created the big bang he will say energy. When you ask what created that he will say "I already told you! The big bang!"

You were forced to admit that those verses I gave did not show that the law was imperfect. Then you said other verses show it. But you do not give any other verses.

I know you are going to say "Yes I have" because you shared the thoughts on how the law was going to pass away, the letter kills, and that it is a yoke of bondage.

But none of those verses show that is it not perfect. It only shows our need for Jesus. Which is what the law was for (as I have already given the verse to prove this). So even in passing away, killing, and bondage the law is perfect.

You also tried to say that love will sin. Perhaps our human idea of what love is will do that. But not the love that is defined in the Bible. That love will not sin. And by the way, what you said is blasphemy. Because God is love...you are saying God will sin.

And a side note about the thief, don't despise him, but he must still pay the cost. You may not have read that part.

 

[fozzy]

Hmmm...I am seeing the same kind of reasoning an atheist gives when he can no longer defend his position here.

When an atheist is asked what created the big bang he will say energy. When you ask what created that he will say "I already told you! The big bang!"

You were forced to admit that those verses I gave did not show that the law was imperfect. Then you said other verses show it. But you do not give any other verses.

I know you are going to say "Yes I have" because you shared the thoughts on how the law was going to pass away, the letter kills, and that it is a yoke of bondage.

But none of those verses show that is it not perfect. It only shows our need for Jesus. Which is what the law was for (as I have already given the verse to prove this). So even in passing away, killing, and bondage the law is perfect.

You also tried to say that love will sin. Perhaps our human idea of what love is will do that. But not the love that is defined in the Bible. That love will not sin. And by the way, what you said is blasphemy. Because God is love...you are saying God will sin.

And a side note about the thief, don't despise him, but he must still pay the cost. You may not have read that part.

Yes, and I have seen your reasoning many, many times. It is by those who are carnal Christians still governed by law. They are too weak to live by faith and so are still governed by the schoolmaster. They are children or babes that still see sin as an action. As if it were something outside themselves. Never realizing that they are sinners to their very core and all their good works are as filthy rags.

p.s. I said love will sometimes break the carnal commandments. I never said that love will sin. You misquoted me because of your faulty legal definition of sin.