question about jesus' teaching

did jesus promote unconditional pacifism

  • yes - pacifism at any cost

  • no - famine and sword

  • unsure / no opinion


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JimB

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ahhh Jim~

My wise brother...:)

All that proves is that both Christians had their conscience's clear before God,that it was good to fight what they viewed as evil.

That also does not invalidate the point,that it was good for the Christian soldiers to fight the real evil of hitler.

But the real German Christian felt he was also fighting a just war because Nazi propaganda had convinced him that he was fighting for the Fatherland against the evil Allies. I am sure his conscience (based on erroneous facts) was as clear as the Baptist GI’s. We view “evil” as being that which is a threat to our security. It is purely an subjective view based on limited knowledge. IMO, it is not worth killing a person for.

~Awanna Freeride
One advantage of talking to yourself is that at least you know somebody is listening.


 
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pinetree

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But the real German Christian felt he was also fighting a just war because Nazi propaganda had convinced him that he was fighting for the Fatherland against the evil Allies. I am sure his conscience (based on erroneous facts) was as clear as the Baptist GI’s. We view “evil” as being that which is a threat to our security. It is purely an subjective view based on limited knowledge. IMO, it is not worth killing a person for.

~Awanna Freeride

One advantage of talking to yourself is that at least you know somebody is listening.
forget the germans for a minute..

lets keep it on the us soldier who saw the obvious evil..

was he wrong to fight?
 
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pinetree

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But the real German Christian felt he was also fighting a just war because Nazi propaganda had convinced him that he was fighting for the Fatherland against the evil Allies. I am sure his conscience (based on erroneous facts) was as clear as the Baptist GI’s. We view “evil” as being that which is a threat to our security. It is purely an subjective view based on limited knowledge. IMO, it is not worth killing a person for.

~Awanna Freeride

One advantage of talking to yourself is that at least you know somebody is listening.
one more for ya Jim~ on this chilly morning..:)

sure,the perception of evil can be relative.

So lets bring it down to basics..

Would you stand by and let an obviously evil killer,murder someone who is innocent?

Would you shoot him,or wonder to yourself..hey,that nut thinks he is right,so who am I to make a judgement call?
 
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JimB

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And this is where the rubber meets the road. If I saw someone being attacked, of course I would step in and protect that person whatever means it may take. But then, that would not be premeditated killing, would it?

But war is a different. In order to "justifiably" kill a human being we are asked to believe what the government is telling us about our alleged enemies (can you spell “gullible”) and that what they are telling us justifies before God our right to kill someone. This is one of those instances where we have to draw a line in our submission to the ruling authorities. Many first-century Christians were punished, even executed, for refusing to fight in the Roman legions, while admittedly, some did.

~Awanna Freeride

One advantage of talking to yourself is that at least you know somebody is listening.
 
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pinetree

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And this is where the rubber meets the road. If I saw someone being attacked, of course I would step in and protect that person whatever means it may take. But then, that would not be premeditated killing, would it?

But war is a different. In order to "justifiably" kill a human being we are asked to believe what the government is telling us about our alleged enemies (can you spell “gullible”) and that what they are telling us justifies before God our right to kill someone. This is one of those instances where we have to draw a line in our submission to the ruling authorities. Many first-century Christians were punished, even executed, for refusing to fight in the Roman legions, while admittedly, some did.

~Awanna Freeride


One advantage of talking to yourself is that at least you know somebody is listening.
Jim~,were our US Christian soldiers that fought hitler, right to fight?
 
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Alpine

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forget the germans for a minute..

lets keep it on the us soldier who saw the obvious evil..

was he wrong to fight?


Well, based on a bunch of books I've read, a lot of the soldiers didn't fully understand why they fought until after the war. At the time, not much of what they were doing made much sense. They had very little nice to say about their commanders.

Keep in mind the world didn't know about the holocaust and many of the other evils Germany did until near the end of the war.
 
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JimB

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Jim~,were our US Christian soldiers that fought hitler, right to fight?

That is a matter of conscience. But I would not condemn them if they, with good conscience, chose to fight. I am just not one of them. And I hope they would respect my conscience as well. I would prefer to save lives (as, say, a Medic of something) than to destroy lives. I would not shirk my duty as a soldier on the frontline in such a capacity.

~Awanna Freeride
One advantage of talking to yourself is that at least you know somebody is listening.
 
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nephilimiyr

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That is a matter of conscience. But I would not condemn them if they, with good conscience, chose to fight. I am just not one of them. And I hope they would respect my conscience as well. I would prefer to save lives (as, say, a Medic of something) than to destroy lives. I would not shirk my duty as a soldier on the frontline in such a capacity.

~Awanna Freeride

One advantage of talking to yourself is that at least you know somebody is listening.

But as a medic you would be part of the war machine, helping to keep it going.

Are you saying that you're problem isn't exactly with war but you personally taking another life?
 
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JimB

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But as a medic you would be part of the war machine, helping to keep it going.

Are you saying that you're problem isn't exactly with war but you personally taking another life?

I hate war, it is as stupid a thing as man does, sending young men to die to protect old men’s interests. But if war occurs and young men (friend or perceived enemy) are sent to be maimed or killed I would want to be there to help them and possibly save lives.

~Awanna Freeride

One advantage of talking to yourself is that at least you know somebody is listening.
 
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nephilimiyr

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I hate war, it is as stupid a thing as man does, sending young men to die to protect old men’s interests. But if war occurs and young men (friend or perceived enemy) are sent to be maimed or killed I would want to be there to help them and possibly save lives.

~Awanna Freeride


One advantage of talking to yourself is that at least you know somebody is listening.
I don't think you understand my point. Without medics, in the army you would be in, your side would suffer more casaulties. So instead of a long drawn out war where many die on both sides, you would have a short war with many dieing in one army but the other becoming victors early. In the long run, alot more lives would be saved if the other side had to surrender more quickly.

Yeah, your side would lose and the evil dictor on the other side gets to rule the world with an iron fist, but at least not as many people died in the army you would've been a medic in.
 
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JimB

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Every war is hoped to be a short war (take Vietnam and Iraq, for example). My concern is not what the government and military do—they will always engage in war (the Bible says so). So, whether it is a short war with few casualties or a long war with many casualties I would want to be there to save lives. I cannot change the minds of leaders, I can only pray for peace.

As for me I will pray for peace … and sanity.

~Awanna Freeride
One advantage of talking to yourself is that at least you know somebody is listening.
 
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nephilimiyr

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Ok, here's the issue with the Hitler thing. Your country finds out that Hitler is marching Jews to the death camps by the hundreds of thousands. You find out that Stalin is likewise starving his own people by the millions. You also know that you have the power to stop it by bombing the heck out of them and perhaps invading their countries. What do you do?

Do you think Hitler would give up his quest to wipe out the Jews in Europe all because you say you think it's immoral? Do you think you could talk sense into Stalin that world domination isn't where it's at? Do you think if you went to Tokyo and talked to the Emperor to convince him that treating people other than his own as swine that he would then forfit? I think the evidence shows that war was the only option. There is a time for war and a time for peace.
 
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nephilimiyr

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As for me I will pray for peace … and sanity.
So do I and very much so, but does that mean to sit back and watch millions being tortured and murdered all in the name of peace?
 
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JimB

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Ok, here's the issue with the Hitler thing. Your country finds out that Hitler is marching Jews to the death camps by the hundreds of thousands. You find out that Stalin is likewise starving his own people by the millions. You also know that you have the power to stop it by bombing the heck out of them and perhaps invading their countries. What do you do?

Do you think Hitler would give up his quest to wipe out the Jews in Europe all because you say you think it's immoral? Do you think you could talk sense into Stalin that world domination isn't where it's at? Do you think if you went to Tokyo and talked to the Emperor to convince him that treating people other than his own as swine that he would then forfit? I think the evidence shows that war was the only option. There is a time for war and a time for peace.

I am not imposing my conscience on the world, N, nor on you. I can only speak of what I would do.

And how could I ever be in a position to really “know” what the enemy of the moment was doing. That’s classified intelligence. Anyhow, no one really knew what the Nazis and Stalin were doing until the end of the war. Hindsight is 20/20 but during the war no one knew what was going on in Nazi Germay or the Soviet Union, not even FDR.I would have to be president to know these things and I don’t have what it takes to be president. Nor would the Emperor of Japan have invited me to speak to him, especially about military matters.

I would be an average G.I. who knew nothing except that my immediate commander was sending me to kill somebody. I couldn’t do it. I would risk death trying to save lives but I could never kill another human being. I would rather die first than to betray my conscience, Declaration of War or not.

~Awanna Freeride
One advantage of talking to yourself is that at least you know somebody is listening.
 
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nephilimiyr

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Yes war is an ugly thing but so is genocide.
This is actually a very sticky subject for me because I have always been a WWII buff and just recently viewed a documentary on Auschwitz by the BBC on youtube. It appalls me just how many governments knew what was going on but didn't do a thing. The things that went on there is more than enough to break your heart. And I just can't see there being any excuse for not doing anything. To sit back and dream of peace and sanity while millions are led to the gas chambers and millions more being tortured and treated worse than animals in work camps is unconscionable to me. To turn a blind eye to them? How could these governments do this?

Actually Jim, our governments knew exactly what Hitler was doing. People had escaped from Auschwitz and other camps and told them of the atrosities and we believed them. We may have not found out about the full scope of the "final solution" but we knew full well what was going on, at least by 1944 we did.
 
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nephilimiyr

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I am not imposing my conscience on the world, N, nor on you. I can only speak of what I would do.

And how could I ever be in a position to really “know” what the enemy of the moment was doing. That’s classified intelligence. Anyhow, no one really knew what the Nazis and Stalin were doing until the end of the war. Hindsight is 20/20 but during the war no one knew what was going on in Nazi Germay or the Soviet Union, not even FDR.I would have to be president to know these things and I don’t have what it takes to be president. Nor would the Emperor of Japan have invited me to speak to him, especially about military matters.

I would be an average G.I. who knew nothing except that my immediate commander was sending me to kill somebody. I couldn’t do it. I would risk death trying to save lives but I could never kill another human being. I would rather die first than to betray my conscience, Declaration of War or not.

~Awanna Freeride

One advantage of talking to yourself is that at least you know somebody is listening.

I respect your opinion on this, I guess I just disagree, to a point. I do agree with you somewhat.
 
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pinetree

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I am not imposing my conscience on the world, N, nor on you. I can only speak of what I would do.

And how could I ever be in a position to really “know” what the enemy of the moment was doing. That’s classified intelligence. Anyhow, no one really knew what the Nazis and Stalin were doing until the end of the war. Hindsight is 20/20 but during the war no one knew what was going on in Nazi Germay or the Soviet Union, not even FDR.I would have to be president to know these things and I don’t have what it takes to be president. Nor would the Emperor of Japan have invited me to speak to him, especially about military matters.

I would be an average G.I. who knew nothing except that my immediate commander was sending me to kill somebody. I couldn’t do it. I would risk death trying to save lives but I could never kill another human being. I would rather die first than to betray my conscience, Declaration of War or not.

~Awanna Freeride

One advantage of talking to yourself is that at least you know somebody is listening.


neph knows much more that I do,but you and Alpine almost seem to be implying that the GI's knew nothing?

Tell ya one thing,in their heart they knew they were protecting America,or also helping to stop evil.

Did they think Hitler was a saint?

They had radio,and newspaper?...
 
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Cassidy

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I would be an average G.I. who knew nothing except that my immediate commander was sending me to kill somebody. I couldn’t do it. I would risk death trying to save lives but I could never kill another human being. I would rather die first than to betray my conscience, Declaration of War or not.

But what if it's a case of kill or be killed?
 
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nephilimiyr

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Ps,neph knows much more that I do,but you and Alpine almost seem to be implying that the GI's knew nothing?

Oh they knew, no doubt about that, it's on record that Rosevelt and Churchill and their war departments discussed what to do about it, they chose to escentially do nothing but win the war as fast as possible. They could've easily bombed railway lines leading to the camps. Bombed the camps headquarters, they had plenty of aerial photos of all the camps, they could have done this, yet they did nothing.

In that documentary I saw just the other day. The guy in charge of the US airforce made the call saying that he didn't want to divert any air missions away from the current plan. That that would just prolong the war.

They interviewed an ex-prisoner from Auschwitz who said one day hundreds of US plans flew over the camp and she and all her other fellow prisoners wanted desperatly for them to drop their bombs on them, saying that at least we could run if we had to. Instead they kept going on towards a near by munions factory.

The Hungarian leaders, two of them, who also happend to be "christians", knew very well what the Nazi plans where, sat back as train load after train load took the Jews and Gypies away. Granted, they really didn't want the Nazis to do this but they sat back and did nothing in the name of peace.
 
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