Question about Genesis

BobRyan

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In the Bible there are 3 heavens - the one where God dwells (2 Cor 12:2) "Third heaven",

the one in space where are the "sun and moon and stars" (day 4 of Genesis 1 God creates "two great lights")

and also the one in our atmosphere where "Birds fly in the midst of the heavens" (day 5 of Gen 1).
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Hi Bob,
In the Bible, the only time three heavens are mentioned in the Bible is when Paul said he knew a man caught up to Paradise... the third heaven.
The Bible never says God's dwelling is in Paradise, in Eden, which is in heaven, but it says He planted a garden/Paradie, there, and took [raptured] the Adam to there, to guard Paradise and to labor in His Garden.

It does say God talked to Adam face to face, there, before the fall, which was when Adam was divorced from the presence of the Glory there and cast down to earth and barred from entering Paradise so as not to eat of the Tree of Life there, and live forever as an "undying worm" =unable to ever be regenerated in flesh and spirit, and fit only to be a cast away.

It does say that the place the flying creatures fly is the "face" of heaven, so it is not a 1st heaven, in the Bible, just like the face of the deep is not a first deep, in the Bible.
the word is translated this way, in the KJV:
The KJV translates Strongs H6440 in the following manner: before (1,137x), face (390x), presence (76x), because (67x), sight (40x), countenance (30x), from (27x), person (21x), upon (20x), of (20x), ...me (18x), against (17x), ...him (16x), open (13x), for (13x), toward (9x), misc (195x).

It does say God has a created temple/dwelling place, in heaven, but it also states specifically that He has set His temple in the sun.

Mount Eden is His holy Mount, which is in the third heaven, but that Mount is where the throne for the ruler of earth is set, and the ruler of earth was Adam, but he never ascended to that throne, for he did not survive pure and holy to his transformation day, to ascend to it. Jesus, as the "Last Adam" has ransomed back the kingdom Adam sold into corruption and will regenerate it totally, and that Mount Eden is where the throne is atop it, where the throne is, upon which He will sit as the "God of the whole earth", in human being flesh, when He takes His great power unto Himself, and reigns -yet to come.

I do not think the stars are in the same story of the stretched out heavens as the sun and moon are, but that is just my own opinion, and can change, as new understanding is given to me....if it is....
It does say that He has built his ascensions in the heavens, so there are ascensions from one heaven to another, and another....but the birds fly in the face of the heaven.

Amos 9:6 It is he that buildeth his stories/ascensions in the heaven, and hath founded his troop in the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name.
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)

מַעֲלָה maʻălâh, mah-al-aw'; feminine of H4608; elevation, i.e. the act (literally, a journey to a higher place, figuratively, a thought arising), or (concretely) the condition (literally, a step or grade-mark, figuratively, a superiority of station); specifically a climactic progression (in certain Psalms):—things that come up, (high) degree, deal, go up, stair, step, story.


Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the face [of the] firmament [the expanse] of the heaven/s. -Heaven/shamayim, is always plural.

In the Bible there are 3 heavens - the one where God dwells (2 Cor 12:2) "Third heaven",

the one in space where are the "sun and moon and stars" (day 4 of Genesis 1 God creates "two great lights")

and also the one in our atmosphere where "Birds fly in the midst of the heavens" (day 5 of Gen 1).
 
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BobRyan

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Hi Bob,
In the Bible, the only time three heavens are mentioned in the Bible is when Paul said he knew a man caught up to Paradise... the third heaven.
The Bible never says God's dwelling is in Paradise, in Eden, which is in heaven, but it says He planted a garden/Paradie, there, and took [raptured] the Adam to there, to guard Paradise and to labor in His Garden.

No text says Adam was to guard paradise that I know of. Rather Adam was a gardener.

Gen 2:15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Luke 23 Paradise "Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom... He answered 'verily I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise'

Does not say where it is - only that it is future for the thief and for Christ.

2Cor 12:2-4 - Paradise - is in the third heaven.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


Rev 2
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’

Rev 22
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life,


What the Bible says about Paradise -

1. We know that it is up. Caught up into Paradise 2Cor 12
2. We know that it is in the third heaven - 2 Cor 12
3. We know that it is where the tree of life is - Rev 2:7
4. We know that the tree of life is where the Throne of God is - Rev 22:1-2

And that is all we know about it from the Bible
 
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yeshuasavedme

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No text says Adam was to guard paradise that I know of. Rather Adam was a gardener.

Gen 2:15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
English transliteration of the words in that verse taken from blb.org:
YHWH Elohym laqach Adam yanach gan [Paradise] Eden abad shamar.
The LORD God raptured Adam and set/placed [him] in Paradise/the Garden of God in Eden to labor/to work [and] to guard [it].
Abad, which means to labor/to serve, according to the Hebrew concordance, is translated in KJV this way:

The KJV translates Strongs H5647 in the following manner: serve (227x), do (15x), till (9x), servant (5x), work (5x), worshippers (5x), service (4x), dress (2x), labour (2x), ear (2x), misc (14x).

shamar, which means to keep/to watch/to guard, is most interesting: it is the same word used for the task of the Cheubim who were set to guard the way from Adam entering after Adam was driven out [the Hebrew word is the same word as "to divorce"] and cast down:
מַר shâmar, shaw-mar'; a primitive root; properly, to hedge about (as with thorns), i.e. guard; generally, to protect, attend to, etc.:—beward, be circumspect, take heed (to self), keep(-er, self), mark, look narrowly, observe, preserve, regard, reserve, save (self), sure, (that lay) wait (for), watch(-man).

Genesis 3:24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard/shamar the way to the tree of life.

So Adam was set there to work and to guard the Garden.
That is the Hebrew meaning and intent.
Next:
The repentant former thief on the cross went directly to Paradise in the third heaven the instant his soul departed his body:
That is the promise Jeus gave Him, as the Son of Man who is always in heaven, and who is come in human being flesh of second creation, simultaneously. Jesus said so in John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus the Christ come in flesh was never absent from the throne of God in heaven, in that He is YHWH in the Person of God the Word/The Son of Man in heaven; whom Enoch saw on the throne in Eden, which throne is that made for the Adam Firstborn son, to sit with the Son of Man in whose image [to come] the Adam was made.
Adam is made in the image of God, and was made to sit on the throne ruling earth, but Adam/no human being ascended to that throne upon which Enoch saw the Son of Man in heaven, in Eden, and The Son who was to come, in whose image Adam was made [Romans 5:14] hidden in Him, in mystery.

Paul read Enoch and therefore wrote about it in 1 Cor 2:7, in the Greek, for the original is straight from the Revelation of the Son of Man in heaven which Enoch saw: but we preach/speak wisdom; God in mystery hidden which God ordained before the world, unto/for our glory
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
English transliteration of the words in that verse taken from blb.org:
YHWH Elohym laqach Adam yanach gan [Paradise] Eden abad shamar.
The LORD God raptured Adam and set/placed [him] in Paradise/the Garden of God in Eden to labor/to work [and] to guard [it].
Abad, which means to labor/to serve, according to the Hebrew concordance, is translated in KJV this way:

The KJV translates Strongs H5647 in the following manner: serve (227x), do (15x), till (9x), servant (5x), work (5x), worshippers (5x), service (4x), dress (2x), labour (2x), ear (2x), misc (14x).

shamar, which means to keep/to watch/to guard, is most interesting: it is the same word used for the task of the Cheubim who were set to guard the way from Adam entering after Adam was driven out [the Hebrew word is the same word as "to divorce"] and cast down:
מַר shâmar, shaw-mar'; a primitive root; properly, to hedge about (as with thorns), i.e. guard; generally, to protect, attend to, etc.:—beward, be circumspect, take heed (to self), keep(-er, self), mark, look narrowly, observe, preserve, regard, reserve, save (self), sure, (that lay) wait (for), watch(-man).

Genesis 3:24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard/shamar the way to the tree of life.

So Adam was set there to work and to guard the Garden.
That is the Hebrew meaning and intent.
Next:
The repentant former thief on the cross went directly to Paradise in the third heaven the instant his soul departed his body:
That is the promise Jeus gave Him, as the Son of Man who is always in heaven, and who is come in human being flesh of second creation, simultaneously. Jesus said so in John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus the Christ come in flesh was never absent from the throne of God in heaven, in that He is YHWH in the Person of God the Word/The Son of Man in heaven; whom Enoch saw on the throne in Eden, which throne is that made for the Adam Firstborn son, to sit with the Son of Man in whose image [to come] the Adam was made.
Adam is made in the image of God, and was made to sit on the throne ruling earth, but Adam/no human being ascended to that throne upon which Enoch saw the Son of Man in heaven, in Eden, and The Son who was to come, in whose image Adam was made [Romans 5:14] hidden in Him, in mystery.

Paul read Enoch and therefore wrote about it in 1 Cor 2:7, in the Greek, for the original is straight from the Revelation of the Son of Man in heaven which Enoch saw: but we preach/speak wisdom; God in mystery hidden which God ordained before the world, unto/for our glory

Then, the son of Man was seen by Ezekiel, in chapter 1:

25 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.

26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of Adam/man above upon it.

27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.5 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.

26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.
 
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BobRyan

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Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
English transliteration of the words in that verse taken from blb.org:
YHWH Elohym laqach Adam yanach gan [Paradise] Eden abad shamar.
The LORD God raptured Adam and set/placed [him] in Paradise/the Garden of God in Eden to labor/to work [and] to guard [it].
Abad, which means to labor/to serve, according to the Hebrew concordance, is translated in KJV this way:

The KJV translates Strongs H5647 in the following manner: serve (227x), do (15x), till (9x), servant (5x), work (5x), worshippers (5x), service (4x), dress (2x), labour (2x), ear (2x), misc (14x).

shamar, which means to keep/to watch

This is what we have in Gen 3:24 for shamar

The KJV translates Strongs H8104 in the following manner: keep (283x), observe (46x), heed (35x), keeper (28x), preserve (21x), beware (9x), mark (8x), watchman (8x), wait (7x), watch (7x), regard (5x), save (2x), misc (9x).

I don't see "guard" in that list

and as for Gen 2:15 - "dress" -- "abad"
The KJV translates Strongs H5647 in the following manner: serve (227x), do (15x), till (9x), servant (5x), work (5x), worshippers (5x), service (4x), dress (2x), labour (2x), ear (2x), misc (14x).

Never is it guard in that list

as for the texts with the word "paradise" - I only see it here -

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68639303, member: 235244"]


Luke 23 Paradise "Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom... He answered 'verily I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise'

After the resurrection
John 20 "do not touch Me for I have not yet ascended to My Father"

Does not say where it is - only that it is future for the thief and for Christ.

2Cor 12:2-4 - Paradise - is in the third heaven.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


Rev 2
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’

Rev 22
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life,


What the Bible says about Paradise -

1. We know that it is up. Caught up into Paradise 2Cor 12
2. We know that it is in the third heaven - 2 Cor 12
3. We know that it is where the tree of life is - Rev 2:7
4. We know that the tree of life is where the Throne of God is - Rev 22:1-2

And that is all we know about it from the Bible[/QUOTE]
 
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yeshuasavedme

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This is what we have in Gen 3:24 for shamar....
The Hebrew word is "to guard, to watch, to keep".
Shamar is the English transliteration for the word, which in Hebrew means "to guard, to keep, to watch", according to the Hebrew Lexicon, here:
Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H8104&t=KJV



That is why it is translated as "to guard" in Genesis 3:24, in many English translations.
It means to guard, to watch, to keep.
There are guards at the gate to Eden's Garden, and they "ain't St Peter", they are Cherubim.



http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_keep.html
"Keep
שׁמר
The image painted by the Hebrew word shamar is a sheepfold. When a shepherd was out in the wilderness with his flock, he would gather thorn bushes to erect a corral to place his flock in at night. The thorns would deter predators and thereby protect and guard the sheep from harm. The word shamiyr, derived from this root means a thorn.

The word shamar means to guard and protect and can be seen in the Aaronic blessing, May Yahweh respect you and guard you. One keeps the commands of Elohiym by guarding and protecting them]/B]."

So the Cherubim were set at the gate with flaming swords to guard the portal lest Adam should enter and eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life.
The same word used for Adam guarding the Garden of God in Eden above is used for the Cherubim guarding the garden gate.


So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
NLT

After sending them out, the LORD God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
NIV

After he drove the man out, he placed on the east sidefn of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
ESV

He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

HCSB

He drove man out and stationed the cherubim and the flaming, whirling sword east of the garden of Eden to guard the way to the tree of life.
RVR60


NASB

So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
NET

When he drove the man out, he placed on the eastern side of the orchard in Eden angelic sentries who used the flame of a whirling sword to guard the way to the tree of life.
RSV

He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.


YLT

yea, he casteth out the man, and causeth to dwell at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flame of the sword which is turning itself round to guard the way of the tree of life.
DBY

And he drove out Man; and he set the Cherubim, and the flame of the flashing sword, toward the east of the garden of Eden, to guard the way to the tree of life.

HNV

So he drove out the man; and he placed Keruvs at the east of the garden of `Eden, and the flame of a sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Luke 23 Paradise "Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom... He answered 'verily I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise'

After the resurrection
John 20 "do not touch Me for have not yet ascended to My Father.
Bob, Jesus did not ascend to the throne when He told Mary not to touch...for He had not yet "ascended to My Father".
He was ascending to the temple in heaven to fulfil the Living Oracle of the "First of Firstfruits", and you have to go read that in the iving Oracles for yourself to know why He ascended to heaven's Holy Temple and offered Himself with those "First of Firstfruits" of the First Harvest of the perfected [in body, soul, and spirit/adopted sons, regenerated in body, to ascend with Himself to that temple in heaven as the first of firstfruits sons of God whom He raised from their graves in their bodies when He rose from the dead in the evening after Sabbath ended, to fulfill First of Firstfruits; which was when the priest was to gather that "Ephah" of the first ripe grains and prepare them as a wave offering to offer before the LORD in the temple below, mid-morning, on the first, first day of the week after Passover. You are making one word serve your self out of context totally, to the passage and doctrine of the entire Living Oracle and the prophetss.

Jesus did not, on mid-morning of that first, first day of the week ascend to sit on the throne: that happened 50 days after Passover, which is called Pentecost, for after He ascended, the formalities were gone through in heaven for ten days, and then He sent the Holy Spirit of Power, cause He sat down on His throne -whihc He is to share with His own adopted sons, as He said.

The Holies in heaven where the Glory resides as oracled in the Torah/teaching, is not the throne on Mount Eden, which is reserved for the Son of Man, the Firstborn Son of God of the New Man name, which throne He has ransomed back for Himself as the "Last Adam".
 
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BobRyan

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Bob, Jesus did not ascend to the throne when He told Mary not to touch...for He had not yet "ascended to My Father".

Indeed - from the crucifixion to the John 20 point - Jesus had not yet been to the Father.

But then later - that very same day - Jesus DOES accept worship and allows Himself to be physically touched by the disciples - so also some days later - He even insists that Thomas touch his hands -- all this before his public - bodily assumption into heaven.

He went to heaven very briefly between the time in John 20 when He is speaking to Mary - and the next time - that same day -- that He meets with His disciples.

Then 40 days later He ascended to heaven publicly with 500 witnesses.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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This is what we have in Gen 3:24 for shamar

The KJV translates Strongs H8104 in the following manner: keep (283x), observe (46x), heed (35x), keeper (28x), preserve (21x), beware (9x), mark (8x), watchman (8x), wait (7x), watch (7x), regard (5x), save (2x), misc (9x).

I don't see "guard" in that list

and as for Gen 2:15 - "dress" -- "abad"
The KJV translates Strongs H5647 in the following manner: serve (227x), do (15x), till (9x), servant (5x), work (5x), worshippers (5x), service (4x), dress (2x), labour (2x), ear (2x), misc (14x).

Never is it guard in that list

The Hebrew word is "to guard, to watch, to keep".
Shamar is the English transliteration for the word, which in Hebrew means "to guard, to keep, to watch", according to the Hebrew Lexicon, here:
Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H8104&t=KJV

I think the Bible translators get it right on this one - since it makes no sense for Adam and Eve to guard the garden against the animals - and makes no sense for Adam to guard the tree against his wife.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Indeed - from the crucifixion to the John 20 point - Jesus had not yet been to the Father.

But then later - that very same day - Jesus DOES accept worship and allows Himself to be physically touched by the disciples - so also some days later - He even insists that Thomas touch his hands -- all this before his public - bodily assumption into heaven.

He went to heaven very briefly between the time in John 20 when He is speaking to Mary - and the next time - that same day -- that He meets with His disciples.

Then 40 days later He ascended to heaven publicly with 500 witnesses.

in Christ,

Bob
No Bob,
The Living Oracles are our Teacher in why Jesus told Mary He had not yet ascended to the Father.
No one can try to make up stories that have no foundation in the Living Oracles and the prophets.
When He ascended and sat down, He sent the Holy Spirit: that was 50 days after the resurrection: but on the first, first day of the week after Passover, as High Priest of earth, He had a Law to fulfill, once, for all.

It is done and will be done no more, and that is the reason He raised many from the dead whose graves were opened and they came out of their graves and walked about the city and were seen of many.

Jesus must needs to fulfill that Living Oracle, and as High Priest of earth, Mary could not touch him, for as High Priest, He was pure and must needs not be touched before His ascension to the Holies in the temple in heaven [not the throne in Mount Eden].
You must read and understand the Living Oracles committed only to the namesake people of the New Man Name which name is "Israel", to understand why Jesus had to fulfill that Oracle.

Then he returned, same day, and remaiined forty days on earth, eating and drinking with and teaching the Disciples, before He ascended to the throne in heaven and sat down, and sent the Holy Spirit 50 days after His resurrection.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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I think the Bible translators get it right on this one - since it makes no sense for Adam and Eve to guard the garden against the animals - and makes no sense for Adam to guard the tree against his wife.

in Christ,

Bob
The translators translated it to guard, mostly.
It is the same word used for the Cherubim guarding the way to the Tree of Life.

The Hebrew word is "to guard, to watch, to keep".
Shamar is the English transliteration for the word, which in Hebrew means "to guard, to keep, to watch", according to the Hebrew Lexicon, here:
Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H8104&t=KJV



That is why it is translated as "to guard" in Genesis 3:24, in many English translations.
It means to guard, to watch, to keep.
There are guards at the gate to Eden's Garden, and they "ain't St Peter", they are Cherubim.



http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_keep.html
"Keep
שׁמר
The image painted by the Hebrew word shamar is a sheepfold. When a shepherd was out in the wilderness with his flock, he would gather thorn bushes to erect a corral to place his flock in at night. The thorns would deter predators and thereby protect and guard the sheep from harm. The word shamiyr, derived from this root means a thorn.

The word shamar means to guard and protect and can be seen in the Aaronic blessing, May Yahweh respect you and guard you. One keeps the commands of Elohiym by guarding and protecting them]/B]."

So the Cherubim were set at the gate with flaming swords to guard the portal lest Adam should enter and eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life.
The same word used for Adam guarding the Garden of God in Eden above is used for the Cherubim guarding the garden gate.


So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
NLT

After sending them out, the LORD God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
NIV

After he drove the man out, he placed on the east sidefn of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
ESV

He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

HCSB

He drove man out and stationed the cherubim and the flaming, whirling sword east of the garden of Eden to guard the way to the tree of life.
RVR60


NASB

So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
NET

When he drove the man out, he placed on the eastern side of the orchard in Eden angelic sentries who used the flame of a whirling sword to guard the way to the tree of life.
RSV

He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.


YLT

yea, he casteth out the man, and causeth to dwell at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flame of the sword which is turning itself round to guard the way of the tree of life.
DBY

And he drove out Man; and he set the Cherubim, and the flame of the flashing sword, toward the east of the garden of Eden, to guard the way to the tree of life.

HNV

So he drove out the man; and he placed Keruvs at the east of the garden of `Eden, and the flame of a sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
 
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BobRyan

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QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68640504, member: 235244"]This is what we have in Gen 3:24 for shamar

The KJV translates Strongs H8104 in the following manner: keep (283x), observe (46x), heed (35x), keeper (28x), preserve (21x), beware (9x), mark (8x), watchman (8x), wait (7x), watch (7x), regard (5x), save (2x), misc (9x).

I don't see "guard" in that list

and as for Gen 2:15 - "dress" -- "abad"
The KJV translates Strongs H5647 in the following manner: serve (227x), do (15x), till (9x), servant (5x), work (5x), worshippers (5x), service (4x), dress (2x), labour (2x), ear (2x), misc (14x).

Never is it guard in that list

[/quote]

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68641423, member: 235244"]I think the Bible translators get it right on this one - since it makes no sense for Adam and Eve to guard the garden against the animals - and makes no sense for Adam to guard the tree against his wife.
[/QUOTE]

The translators translated it to guard, mostly.
It is the same word used for the Cherubim guarding the way to the Tree of Life.

So the high use for that word was
keep (283x), observe (46x), heed (35x), keeper (28x), preserve (21x),
Not one single "guard" as the translation.

And yet you said -

"The translators translated it to guard, mostly."

how is that???
 
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yeshuasavedme

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http://www.christianforums.com/threads/question-about-genesis.7906179/page-6#post-68641296
The English tranlations that translate the Word shamar as "guard" I have already listed for you, in the former post linked above, so how is it that you do not "see" the word?

Guard is the word used in the translations below, from above, and it is the same word used for the cherubim being set as "guards" to the gate of
Paradise, in 3:24.

That is why it is translated as "to guard" in Genesis 3:24, in many English translations.
It means to guard, to watch, to keep.
There are guards at the gate to Eden's Garden, and they "ain't St Peter", they are Cherubim.



http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_keep.html
"Keep
שׁמר
The image painted by the Hebrew word shamar is a sheepfold. When a shepherd was out in the wilderness with his flock, he would gather thorn bushes to erect a corral to place his flock in at night. The thorns would deter predators and thereby protect and guard the sheep from harm. The word shamiyr, derived from this root means a thorn.

The word shamar means to guard and protect and can be seen in the Aaronic blessing, May Yahweh respect you and guard you. One keeps the commands of Elohiym by guarding and protecting them]/B]."

So the Cherubim were set at the gate with flaming swords to guard the portal lest Adam should enter and eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life.
The same word used for Adam guarding the Garden of God in Eden above is used for the Cherubim guarding the garden gate.


So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
NLT

After sending them out, the LORD God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
NIV

After he drove the man out, he placed on the east sidefn of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
ESV

He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

HCSB

He drove man out and stationed the cherubim and the flaming, whirling sword east of the garden of Eden to guard the way to the tree of life.
RVR60


NASB

So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
NET

When he drove the man out, he placed on the eastern side of the orchard in Eden angelic sentries who used the flame of a whirling sword to guard the way to the tree of life.
RSV

He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.


YLT

yea, he casteth out the man, and causeth to dwell at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flame of the sword which is turning itself round to guard the way of the tree of life.
DBY

And he drove out Man; and he set the Cherubim, and the flame of the flashing sword, toward the east of the garden of Eden, to guard the way to the tree of life.

HNV

So he drove out the man; and he placed Keruvs at the east of the garden of `Eden,
 
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The angel in Gen 3 has a flaming sword - and mankind that want to gain access - all of descendants of Adam until the flood - are potential violators without that angel.

But in Gen 2 - Adam is only there with animals and his wife and there are no "humans" that are "not supposed to eat of the tree of life" according to Genesis 2 - which is probably why none of your quotes above mention genesis 2..

Context is everything.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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The angel in Gen 3 as a flaming sword - and mankind that want to gain access - all of descendants of Adam until the flood - are potential violators without that angel.

But in Gen 2 - Adam is only there with animals and his wife and there are no "humans" that are "not supposed to eat of the tree of life" according to Genesis 2 - which is probably why none of your quotes above mention genesis 2..

Context is everything.
Context is everything. There were many holy Watcher angels in Eden, and they are there, still, except for the ones that did not get chained in Sheol below, at the time of the Flood of Noah, andthere were the created evil angels there, called "satans", created specifically to try, test, and tempt holy watcher angels and the Adam creation.
And the purpose for Paradise is still there, waiting for the manifestation of the "adopted sons of God" -as all creation does wait.
And God's plan did not change, he only is keeping Paradise for the regenerated sons of God to take their places there, and reign, with the Firstborn, the Kinsman/Redeemer, Christ come in flesh, who is to be called "The God of the whole earth", when He rules from Mount Eden above and Mount Zion below.
There were the seed of the human beings to come, already written in the Boook of Life, in Adam's loins.
Billions and billions and billions and billions...of human beings were going to come forth as " holy sons of God" from the loins of the firstborn Adam, the head of our race, before Adam died; nd all the seed died in his loins as holy seed for coming forth in their season to "build" the City of God" up, as the temple not made with hands for the Glory to indwell, and to "Plant the heavens thereby", as Scriptures teach.
So Adam was set to keep/guard/watch over Paradise, for the plan of God to come to fruit in its season.

Adam did not keep/watch/guard Paradise after all, but he became defiled in his flesh body and dead in his Adam spirit and unclean in his person/soul.
So now, Adam is divorced [we are all Adam], and the driving out of our firstborn father was the great divorce from the presence of the Glory and the fellowship with Him, "face to face", which Adam did have and all the seed would have, if there had been no death of spirit and divorce from Eden's Holy Mount.

Now the Cherubim guard the gate with flaming swords turning every which way.

Why do you claim the swords are cherubim, themselves?
Cherubim have four faces; the Adam face, Cherub face [which is the OX/Bull], lion face, eagle face; with hoofs like calvs, hands like Adam, and wings.
Swords do not have faces, nor feet, nor hands, nor wings, norfeet.

Why are the Cherubim guarding the Gate? -to keep out the Adam creation lest they enter and eat the fruit of the Tree of Life and live forever in the undying worm state, for after eating the fruit, the body will not corrupt, and to live in the state of incorruption but being defiled and uncleanforever is fir only for the last death, and rejects will be then cast into the Lake of Fire as never dying 'metamorphosing to the image of the glory of the sons of God of the human being kind], worms.

So they do a good job of preserving our inheritance for us, which we get in the New Man name of the Firstborn Son of God of the human being kind, who is our Kinsman/Redeemer, and who is YHWH come in flesh of second creation, with a New Man name, which name is "Israel".

So, if we were able to eat the fruit of the tree of Life in our defiled state, we are then only fit to be cast aways in the second death.
But, Jesus came and covered Adam's transgression, so that none in Adam will haveto live forever in the first death, nor suffer the second death, except those who willfully choose to reject the Light that lights every man that comes into the world.
Because the resurrection body will have Adam's transgression covered, by the once for all Atonement, those who are raised in the second resurrection have only the Lake of Fire to be their doom, forever and forever.
That is why that body is called a "never dying worm".

But we who are born again in Spirit are adopted sons, and like pupa's in the chrysalis, are hid in Christ, the Living Spirit, in God.
That, BTW, is represented by the Ark of Atonement in heaven's Holy of Holies in heaven's created temple -but that's another story.
 
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Hi, Although I have christian background, I have some questions about Genesis, partly because others raise these questions and objections at times too. If its possible to answer them I like some answers. In all honesty I suppress some of my questions at times.

What is Genesis the first three chapters - I am inclined to call it mythopoetic (not in the sense of never having happened, or being untrue) but in its language, its not scientific. For myself I no longer demand it should be, and this maybe came gradually.

But others still raise some questions. For instance, the creation of plant life before the creation of the sun. If its not chronological in sequence how should it be understood. Whats back of this requirement that Genesis read as a scientific textbook?
 
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HI dms,

You have hit on one of the most important subjects in the bible. I am so exicted that you have the unction to find out more here.
There is so much debate on creation and there does not need to be.
there are 2 adams. But adam is not a name like bill or jack..
In chapter one, Adam means "People" In chapter 2 Adam in the greek is actually "eth ha adahm, which is very more specific. it means a very specific person.
so we begin with God making "people" (the races). He created them man and women. they were to hunt and fish. they were made by God. But at the end of those 7 days, while God was resting on the 7th day, He found them to be very bad.
So now we start chapter 2. This chapter IS NOT a repeat of Chapter one. God now made eth ha adahm, a very specific person and placed him in the garden of Eden. He was separated from the other races he had formed in chapter one. This Adam (eth ha adahm) was to till the soil.

Why the confusion of the 2 creations of man?

This is a very indepth study but you can study this by going to youtube, Shephard's Chapel and type in "3 world ages" It will give you step by step instruction and they back up every statement with biblical scripture.

This will give you every answer to your question. reply to me if you have questions on this. I feel I had the exact same questions I had when I started thinking about the bible

Good luck. allan
 
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Context is everything. There were many holy Watcher angels in Eden, and they are there, still, except for the ones that did not get chained in Sheol below, at the time of the Flood of Noah, andthere were the created evil angels there, called "satans", created specifically to try, test, and tempt holy watcher angels and the Adam creation.
And the purpose for Paradise is still there, waiting for the manifestation of the "adopted sons of God" -as all creation does wait.
And God's plan did not change, he only is keeping Paradise for the regenerated sons of God to take their places there, and reign, with the Firstborn, the Kinsman/Redeemer, Christ come in flesh, who is to be called "The God of the whole earth", when He rules from Mount Eden above and Mount Zion below.
There were the seed of the human beings to come, already written in the Boook of Life, in Adam's loins.
Billions and billions and billions and billions...of human beings were going to come forth as " holy sons of God" from the loins of the firstborn Adam, the head of our race, before Adam died; nd all the seed died in his loins as holy seed for coming forth in their season to "build" the City of God" up, as the temple not made with hands for the Glory to indwell, and to "Plant the heavens thereby", as Scriptures teach.
So Adam was set to keep/guard/watch over Paradise, for the plan of God to come to fruit in its season.

Adam did not keep/watch/guard Paradise after all, but he became defiled in his flesh body and dead in his Adam spirit and unclean in his person/soul.
So now, Adam is divorced [we are all Adam], and the driving out of our firstborn father was the great divorce from the presence of the Glory and the fellowship with Him, "face to face", which Adam did have and all the seed would have, if there had been no death of spirit and divorce from Eden's Holy Mount.

Now the Cherubim guard the gate with flaming swords turning every which way.

Why do you claim the swords are cherubim, themselves?
Cherubim have four faces; the Adam face, Cherub face [which is the OX/Bull], lion face, eagle face; with hoofs like calvs, hands like Adam, and wings.
Swords do not have faces, nor feet, nor hands, nor wings, norfeet.

Why are the Cherubim guarding the Gate? -to keep out the Adam creation lest they enter and eat the fruit of the Tree of Life and live forever in the undying worm state, for after eating the fruit, the body will not corrupt, and to live in the state of incorruption but being defiled and uncleanforever is fir only for the last death, and rejects will be then cast into the Lake of Fire as never dying 'metamorphosing to the image of the glory of the sons of God of the human being kind], worms.

So they do a good job of preserving our inheritance for us, which we get in the New Man name of the Firstborn Son of God of the human being kind, who is our Kinsman/Redeemer, and who is YHWH come in flesh of second creation, with a New Man name, which name is "Israel".

So, if we were able to eat the fruit of the tree of Life in our defiled state, we are then only fit to be cast aways in the second death.
But, Jesus came and covered Adam's transgression, so that none in Adam will haveto live forever in the first death, nor suffer the second death, except those who willfully choose to reject the Light that lights every man that comes into the world.
Because the resurrection body will have Adam's transgression covered, by the once for all Atonement, those who are raised in the second resurrection have only the Lake of Fire to be their doom, forever and forever.
That is why that body is called a "never dying worm".

But we who are born again in Spirit are adopted sons, and like pupa's in the chrysalis, are hid in Christ, the Living Spirit, in God.
That, BTW, is represented by the Ark of Atonement in heaven's Holy of Holies in heaven's created temple -but that's another story.
 
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