putting pets to sleep

[gzt]

I rather like eating meat.

 

[xenia]

*raises hand*

You may put your hand down, I know about you.

 

[stillerfan]

not me....

 

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

So.... you guys are all vegetarians, I take it?

I'm seriously considering it. The more I learn and grow in the Orthodox faith, the less comfortable I am with killing for any reason. I could still eat dairy, though, because animals don't have to die for that. I tend to think that sea animals don't have souls, but then I tend to think that of any pet I can't snuggle with. But then.....I would have to exclude dolphins from that statement because they are just too darn smart to not have a soul..... I think one of the main reasons I'm not a vegetarian yet is because I can't figure out how to replace all the iron and protein I would miss. Most of the things you can use to replace them are things I either hate or can't tolerate, like peanut butter and tofu. I also don't want to have to take vitamin supliments by the handfuls.....I've been anemic before.

 

[Suzannah]

I think that it is an error to equate animals state of being with that of humans. Now, certainly we are called to care for our animal friends and to be kind and loving...the lives of the saints are replete with descriptions of this. But I hardly think that putting an animal to sleep because it is suffering is equitable with that of a human being. I do think that animals just like humans serve God's purposes and that they serve God in their own way, which I don't even pretend to understand. And I do think that since Christ came to redeem all of Creation, that there is some sort of plan for our furry friends. But to equate them with the life of a human being is to cheapen one and shortchange the other of its true nature.

Whenever I am involved in conversations about this, I always find it odd that people want to ascribe the term "soul" to their pets, their doggies and their kitties...but such a notion/priviledge is rarely granted to say a shark, a python or a lobster.

I guess I have to say that in view of a larger picture, putting one's pet to sleep in a humble act of mercy is not wrong or a sin, but it certainly isn't desireable. This principle doesn't apply to humans since we know the state of human beings (created in God's image and likeness) and we do not know the state of animals.

 

[countrymousenc]

Whenever I am involved in conversations about this, I always find it odd that people want to ascribe the term "soul" to their pets, their doggies and their kitties...but such a notion/priviledge is rarely granted to say a shark, a python or a lobster.

Good point. Or mice, spiders, ants...

Here's my take: We were created (in part) to be in charge of and take care of this world, and the animals are under human jurisdiction. Therefore, to end a pet's life out of kindness, out of pity for the suffering pet, is within our realm of authority. However, to euthanize humans just because they are sick or old is not within our rights - that amounts to playing God.

 

[Suzannah]

Good point. Or mice, spiders, ants...

Here's my take: We were created (in part) to be in charge of and take care of this world, and the animals are under human jurisdiction. Therefore, to end a pet's life out of kindness, out of pity for the suffering pet, is within our realm of authority. However, to euthanize humans just because they are sick or old is not within our rights - that amounts to playing God.

Exactly!

 

[Stephanida]

Here's my take: We were created (in part) to be in charge of and take care of this world, and the animals are under human jurisdiction. Therefore, to end a pet's life out of kindness, out of pity for the suffering pet, is within our realm of authority. However, to euthanize humans just because they are sick or old is not within our rights - that amounts to playing God.

thanks I am in a debate with one of my friends about this subject! that is an awesome answer!!!

 

[Dust and Ashes]

I like the way Hugh Ross put it in his book Beyond the Cosmos. There are "soulish" animals which are capable of emotion and interact with us on an emotional level, though they lack an immortal spirit.

Regarding the OP, when we take a pet, we have an obligation to take care of that pet and if the pet is suffering with no hope, I believe it is our responsibility (painful as it is) to euthanize the pet. They are not spiritual beings like humans, so the whole "who determines quality of life" debate doesn't apply to them.

Not really related but I happened to think of while reading this thread:

Locally there are a couple of accounts of people who died and were with their pets for days before being discovered. One old woman died and when they found her several days later, her cats had begun eating her remains.

Then there's the account of an old man who died sitting in his chair and was not found for weeks. His dog was lying dead at his feet where the poor thing had starved.

That's why I'm not a cat person.

 

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Then there's the account of an old man who died sitting in his chair and was not found for weeks. His dog was lying dead at his feet where the poor thing had starved.

This reminds me of St. Gerasmas (sp?) and the lion. The lion loved and served him, and when St. Gerasmas died, the lion wailed and cried violently until some monks took the lion to his grave. The lion laid down on his grave and died. I love that story.

 

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I will add that I think there may be instances where it is merciful to put an animal down though only in extreme cases (this is IMO). The cattle that was infected with Mad Cow Disease comes to mind. It broke my heart to see what horrible things that disease does to them before they die.

 

[twin]

I just want to add that being Orthodox does not mean you have to be a vegetarian. I have come across the notion that if you are, you are somehow more Orthodox. It's true that monastics don't eat meat, but in general the Church says nothing about that killing animals to eat is a sin. What comes to mind is, what the Lord said to St. Peter, Rise, Peter, kill, and eat. I know that this was referring to the Gentiles, but still.. Anyway the Church even prescribes killing fish to eat, during fasts. I mean, the calendar does prescribe fish. Of course, it's fine to be a vegetarian, as long as you don't equate it with being Orthodox. I don't mean to be dogamtic and sound like I know everything, and must teach everyone else. It just bothers me when I've heard people start to sound superior when they're doing something that totally is their own choice and not mandatory. Sorry if I've sounded polemic! I'm not accusing anyone about anything either.

 

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I just want to add that being Orthodox does not mean you have to be a vegetarian. I have come across the notion that if you are, you are somehow more Orthodox. It's true that monastics don't eat meat, but in general the Church says nothing about that killing animals to eat is a sin. What comes to mind is, what the Lord said to St. Peter, Rise, Peter, kill, and eat. I know that this was referring to the Gentiles, but still.. Anyway the Church even prescribes killing fish to eat, during fasts. I mean, the calendar does prescribe fish. Of course, it's fine to be a vegetarian, as long as you don't equate it with being Orthodox. I don't mean to be dogamtic and sound like I know everything, and must teach everyone else. It just bothers me when I've heard people start to sound superior when they're doing something that totally is their own choice and not mandatory. Sorry if I've sounded polemic! I'm not accusing anyone about anything either.

Well, I'm glad you're not accusing me or anyone else, because no one has said any such thing. Lord knows there are millions of vegetarians out there who are far from God, whether Orthodox or not. I was only stating my personal feelings on this matter.

 

[Marjorie]

I'm seriously considering it. The more I learn and grow in the Orthodox faith, the less comfortable I am with killing for any reason. I could still eat dairy, though, because animals don't have to die for that. I tend to think that sea animals don't have souls, but then I tend to think that of any pet I can't snuggle with. But then.....I would have to exclude dolphins from that statement because they are just too darn smart to not have a soul..... I think one of the main reasons I'm not a vegetarian yet is because I can't figure out how to replace all the iron and protein I would miss. Most of the things you can use to replace them are things I either hate or can't tolerate, like peanut butter and tofu. I also don't want to have to take vitamin supliments by the handfuls.....I've been anemic before.

If you do decide to go veggie, then you could PM me and I could give you some suggestions (I also hate tofu.) I actually really like meat so I've had to find substitutes.

Also, yes, I know that vegetarianism is not Orthodox per se. I was a vegetarian before I was even Christian, and it's just a personal thing for me.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

 

[twin]

Oh, dear, I'm VERY sorry if I've offended you!!! I think I have. That was insensitive of me to write that after you posted. Please forgive me! I wasn't thinking of you, actually, I was thinking of some other people I've run into over the years, who have really made other people uncomfortable because they didn't share their opinion. But just because I've been irritated by a few people doesn't mean I get to irritate others. I'm very sorry that I have!

 

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Oh, dear, I'm VERY sorry if I've offended you!!! I think I have. That was insensitive of me to write that after you posted. Please forgive me! I wasn't thinking of you, actually, I was thinking of some other people I've run into over the years, who have really made other people uncomfortable because they didn't share their opinion. But just because I've been irritated by a few people doesn't mean I get to irritate others. I'm very sorry that I have!

Nah, no problem here, twin. I have heard Bp. Ware talk about this a little (via video). He encountered some monks once who were really making a big deal about how grotesque it is that some people eat meat. The Bp. felt their attitude was inappropriate and not scriptural, either.

 

[twin]

Well, it was insensitive of me, so thank you for being forgiving!

 

[Orthosdoxa]

Yeah, about the vegetarianism thing - I can't eat meat if I think about it. During some of the lowest points of my life (I'm thinking of growing up in abusive hell), animals have been my only friends. Including a very sweet, doe-eyed calf named Frankie. (My making a pet of her, not realizing that the whole reason we had calves was to kill them for meat, ended up being traumatic when it was all said and done. I was 6.) Sometimes the realization of what I'm eating absolutely makes me sick, and I can't continue. Esp. when I realize that my three fur babies, whom I love ferociously, ARE considered fair game to kill and eat in some parts of the world. But when I CAN manage to not think about it, meat is probably my favorite thing to eat. It's sort of hypocritical, I guess.

And again, my feelings have nothing to do with being Orthodox. I felt this was even when I was heterodox.

 

[Prawnik]

FWIW, St. John Chrysostom believed that killing animals was a sin. I don't know that this attitude was shared by other Church fathers.

 

[MariaRegina]

I rather like eating meat.

How come the topic always comes around to meat?

Must be the temptations of the flesh for forbidden food during Lent.