Put it all here.

Glass*Soul

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I have had a recurring problem.

I like to explore Christianity, which is ostensibly what this forum exists to enable. :thumbsup: Cool.

You may notice that I am an atheist. This means that whatever topic I begin discussing about Christianity it has a tendency to devolve into efforts to address the perceived problem of my atheism. I understand that some Christians feel absolutely duty bound to make the attempt. I really do.

However, I have found some of these efforts to be upsetting for a variety of reasons. I feel pretty bruised and I suspect I have been more prone to bruise others than I used to be.

So, what to do? Do I give up attempting to explore Christianity? I'd rather not.

Therefore, I am creating this thread explicitly for anyone interested to address my atheism. I will no longer discuss it in any other topics. Only here.

If you want to know why I am an atheist, come here.
If you want me to go head to head with you in an Apologetics discussion, come here.
If you want to attempt to convert me or tell me your version of the plan of salvation, come here.
If you want to go all Romans 1 on me, tell me what a sinner I am and warn me about hell, come here.

I will reply when I feel up to it. I don't know how often that will be. However, I promise not to put anyone on ignore for what they say here. After all, I have invited you.

So, what do you have to say to me as an atheist? Put it all here.
 

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So, what do you have to say to me as an atheist?.

Hello! :angel:

That's all I've got. :D I have nothing different to say to atheists than to anyone else. You're all good in my book. If you want to explore Christianity, that's cool. If you want to criticize it, that's fine. If you want to convert, great. If you don't, no problem.

I guess I'm not sure what you're expecting people to say to you ;)
 
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Glass*Soul

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Hello! :angel:

That's all I've got. :D I have nothing different to say to atheists than to anyone else. You're all good in my book. If you want to explore Christianity, that's cool. If you want to criticize it, that's fine. If you want to convert, great. If you don't, no problem.

I guess I'm not sure what you're expecting people to say to you ;)

Well, that's fine. :)

I'm not sure what to expect either. I'm just hoping this may prove to be a solution to a problem I've been having. I think it's worth a try anyway.
 
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Glass*Soul

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How do you omit the Father (God) from the Son (Christ)?

It seems to me you said something to this effect somewhere else; if not, then please ignore.

I don't believe that God exists except as a symbol for certain aspects of the human experience writ large. For many people Jesus has served as as avatar for the best of those aspects. One might say that if there were a God worthy of our worship, and he were to manifest in human form, he would look something like Jesus.

Is that what you were remembering?
 
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ForceofTime

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I don't believe that God exists except as a symbol for certain aspects of the human experience writ large. For many people Jesus has served as as avatar for the best of those aspects. One might say that if there were a God worthy of our worship, and he were to manifest in human form, he would look something like Jesus.

Is that what you were remembering?

I see. Yes, I think that's it.

Anyway, thanks for the reply. All the best to you, Glass*Soul.
 
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Hospes

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GS,

Truly am regretful about your experiences and the resulting bruises. If it helps at all, try to recognize that some of it comes from well meaning folks with a passion for getting others to experience what they have found to be really good. Kinda like a sweet old lady that keeps insisting you eat some desert in spite of the fact you have assured her you really don't want any.

Of course others are just jerks. :)
 
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Glass*Soul

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GS,

Truly am regretful about your experiences and the resulting bruises. If it helps at all, try to recognize that some of it comes from well meaning folks with a passion for getting others to experience what they have found to be really good. Kinda like a sweet old lady that keeps insisting you eat some desert in spite of the fact you have assured her you really don't want any.

Of course others are just jerks. :)

Thanks. Interestingly, I came to the realization last week that my feeling bruised has led to my lashing out and bruising others, that I've been doing this for quite some time, and that it isn't acceptable. Oi antz offered a prayer in another topic of mine that touched thoughtfully on each point I had been belly-aching about and I got all snarky about it. I think I finally heard myself in a way I badly needed to hear myself. I realized I have to take steps to protect myself so that I don't become a part of the problem. (Or a bigger part of the problem than I have already become. :( )

I realize that evangelizing or correcting unbelievers is something that some Christians may feel dutifully compelled to do, so I thought if I created a place where it could be done, that I could visit when I'm not being too dangerously vulnerable over some other issue, maybe they would in turn respect my desire not to engage such posts in my other topics.

It's a bit of a grand experiment.
 
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bling

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I have asked these questions of Atheists before with limited response:

1. If you believed the Christian God really did exist, how would that knowledge change your life?

2. From what you do know of the Christian God would you like to know He existed?

3. Why do you want to know the Christian God does exist?

4. What would it take for you to “believe” the Christian God does exist and would that require faith or just knowledge on your part?

5. Do you see any logical reason humans would need to believe there is a benevolent Creator over just having knowledge of a benevolent creator?
 
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Glass*Soul

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I have asked these questions of Atheists before with limited response:

Well, I will try to respond. Feel free to ask follow-ups if I don't seem to be addressing the questions fully.

1. If you believed the Christian God really did exist, how would that knowledge change your life? I think, if I believed in God, there would be a huge aspect of uncertainty I would have to deal with. When I say a huge aspect, I mean really huge. As huge as the concept of God itself. I would be seeing myself primarily in relation to something utterly ineffable, immovable, and inscrutable rather than simply in relation to the world around me. I'm not sure what I would do with that. It strikes me as a rather lonesome state, actually.

2. From what you do know of the Christian God would you like to know He existed? If you get a chance to look at my response to your post in my parable of the wedding feast topic, that partly answers this question. Sussing out what the Christian God is like is no easy task. In that parable alone, a character that feels like Herod Anitpas to me feels like God to most of the other respondents. Would I like to know a God who strikes me as resembling Herod Antipas existed? No. Such knowledge would darken my existence.

However, I don't believe that a God who resembles Herod Antipas can exist. I find it a logical impossibility. So, I don't worry about it. What I worry about is that there are people who do believe in such a God. I fear for them and I may, under certain circumstances, fear them.

What I would like to know is what Jesus was referencing by the terms "Father" and "Kingdom of Heaven". I think it may be something that on a mystical, non-logical, intuitive level may be helpful to mankind. I don't believe it has to point to something that exists in order for it to be helpful. I don't think it is important that I believe in the existence of Jesus' Father in the same way as I believe in the existence of George Washington. I think I can have faith, have fealty, without that sort of belief.

3. Why do you want to know the Christian God does exist? Once the idea of God began to strike me as a logical impossibility, wanting or not wanting it became moot. It would be like wanting to flap my arms and fly. To want it, to truly and really want it, would man wanting reality as I know it to be suspended. I do not want reality as I know to be suspended. That would be madness. The day I flap my arms and fly is the day the haul me off in a straightjacket.

4. What would it take for you to “believe” the Christian God does exist and would that require faith or just knowledge on your part? It would require a definition of God that is not a logical impossibility and that did not boil down to something in the universe that is simply bigger and more powerful than me. Good luck with that. ^_^

Now, I notice you've put the word believe in scare quotes. If by belief you mean the deliberate, temporary suspension of non-belief for a specific purpose, such as what we do when we read a book or watch a movie and allow ourselves to react as if it were real, then I do that. I'm quite capable of talking about God as if God existed and find it useful to do so. It is possible to have faith in the concept of a God of a certain character in the sense of living life as if that God existed and acting in fealty to the character of that imagined God. It is a tool. It is not knowledge of a God. It does not require one's God to be a logical possibility.

5. Do you see any logical reason humans would need to believe there is a benevolent Creator over just having knowledge of a benevolent creator? I would say that the difference occurs because God is a logical impossibility and one cannot have knowledge of such. If we find the concept of God a useful one we are thrown back onto belief or suspension of non-belief. Which of the two camps we find ourselves in depends upon how our minds work. Suspension of non-belief is my necessary approach. I think that is OK.
 
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god's_pawn

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I have had a recurring problem.

I like to explore Christianity, which is ostensibly what this forum exists to enable. :thumbsup: Cool.

You may notice that I am an atheist. This means that whatever topic I begin discussing about Christianity it has a tendency to devolve into efforts to address the perceived problem of my atheism. I understand that some Christians feel absolutely duty bound to make the attempt. I really do.

However, I have found some of these efforts to be upsetting for a variety of reasons. I feel pretty bruised and I suspect I have been more prone to bruise others than I used to be.

So, what to do? Do I give up attempting to explore Christianity? I'd rather not.

Therefore, I am creating this thread explicitly for anyone interested to address my atheism. I will no longer discuss it in any other topics. Only here.

If you want to know why I am an atheist, come here.
If you want me to go head to head with you in an Apologetics discussion, come here.
If you want to attempt to convert me or tell me your version of the plan of salvation, come here.
If you want to go all Romans 1 on me, tell me what a sinner I am and warn me about hell, come here.

I will reply when I feel up to it. I don't know how often that will be. However, I promise not to put anyone on ignore for what they say here. After all, I have invited you.

So, what do you have to say to me as an atheist? Put it all here.

I would first just like say how much I admire not only your honesty, but also your willingness to open yourself up for a veritable attack by Christians.

Don't let anyone fool you, we're not a perfect lot. Far from it, Christianity involves a continuous embrace with our "dark side". Part of being a Christian is facing up to our faults and failure and learning to turn them over to God. It's not easy, but it's good.

Anyhow, I know that often times Christians see an atheist or a believer of a different religion and immediately "go at it" thinking they can convert the person on the spot. It's a mindset of, "well this worked for me so it must work for you too!" Nothing could be farther from the truth. Each and every person has their own journey and no one approach will change everybody (save for God to intervene in an undeniable way, which He will never do). That said, I apologize for those who have not realized this and have hurt you as a result. I know that that in itself is enough to prevent almost anyone from becoming a Christian.

All that said, I just have one simple question for you and then maybe I'll go off your response to ask another question. Before I ask it though, let me just clarify that I am NOT trying to convert you. Quite frankly, I can't. I can help in the process if you're interested, but if you're not then there's nothing I can do to make you so. I ask this question because I am genuinely curious. I like to know what other people believe and why. It helps me better understand my own beliefs. As Os Guinness once said, "Contrast is the mother of clarity." I look for the contrast in other beliefs so as to better see the truth in mine. I do indeed believe that Christianity is real and true. I have spent uncounted hours searching for the truth and thus far I have not met with any argument that succeeded in making me doubt my faith. I've seen the other beliefs, I've tested them with what I know, and honestly, I find them to be lacking. This includes atheism, but I will not go into detail with that unless you specifically request it.

Okay, so that said, here's my question: Have you ever believed anything other than atheism? If so, what was it and what caused you to abandon it?
 
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bling

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Well, I will try to respond. Feel free to ask follow-ups if I don't seem to be addressing the questions fully.

1. If you believed the Christian God really did exist, how would that knowledge change your life? I think, if I believed in God, there would be a huge aspect of uncertainty I would have to deal with. When I say a huge aspect, I mean really huge. As huge as the concept of God itself. I would be seeing myself primarily in relation to something utterly ineffable, immovable, and inscrutable rather than simply in relation to the world around me. I'm not sure what I would do with that. It strikes me as a rather lonesome state, actually.

2. From what you do know of the Christian God would you like to know He existed? If you get a chance to look at my response to your post in my parable of the wedding feast topic, that partly answers this question. Sussing out what the Christian God is like is no easy task. In that parable alone, a character that feels like Herod Anitpas to me feels like God to most of the other respondents. Would I like to know a God who strikes me as resembling Herod Antipas existed? No. Such knowledge would darken my existence.

However, I don't believe that a God who resembles Herod Antipas can exist. I find it a logical impossibility. So, I don't worry about it. What I worry about is that there are people who do believe in such a God. I fear for them and I may, under certain circumstances, fear them.

What I would like to know is what Jesus was referencing by the terms "Father" and "Kingdom of Heaven". I think it may be something that on a mystical, non-logical, intuitive level may be helpful to mankind. I don't believe it has to point to something that exists in order for it to be helpful. I don't think it is important that I believe in the existence of Jesus' Father in the same way as I believe in the existence of George Washington. I think I can have faith, have fealty, without that sort of belief.

3. Why do you want to know the Christian God does exist? Once the idea of God began to strike me as a logical impossibility, wanting or not wanting it became moot. It would be like wanting to flap my arms and fly. To want it, to truly and really want it, would man wanting reality as I know it to be suspended. I do not want reality as I know to be suspended. That would be madness. The day I flap my arms and fly is the day the haul me off in a straightjacket.

4. What would it take for you to “believe” the Christian God does exist and would that require faith or just knowledge on your part? It would require a definition of God that is not a logical impossibility and that did not boil down to something in the universe that is simply bigger and more powerful than me. Good luck with that. ^_^

Now, I notice you've put the word believe in scare quotes. If by belief you mean the deliberate, temporary suspension of non-belief for a specific purpose, such as what we do when we read a book or watch a movie and allow ourselves to react as if it were real, then I do that. I'm quite capable of talking about God as if God existed and find it useful to do so. It is possible to have faith in the concept of a God of a certain character in the sense of living life as if that God existed and acting in fealty to the character of that imagined God. It is a tool. It is not knowledge of a God. It does not require one's God to be a logical possibility.

5. Do you see any logical reason humans would need to believe there is a benevolent Creator over just having knowledge of a benevolent creator? I would say that the difference occurs because God is a logical impossibility and one cannot have knowledge of such. If we find the concept of God a useful one we are thrown back onto belief or suspension of non-belief. Which of the two camps we find ourselves in depends upon how our minds work. Suspension of non-belief is my necessary approach. I think that is OK.
First off: thank you for responding.

I think you have a good reason for not believing in what you think the Christian God is like.

Have you ever thought that just maybe part of the reason God remains questionable is to keep from upsetting people like yourself?

We can both be accused of taking our believes (yours there is no God and mine that there is a God ) and rationally trying to explain everything around us. You see God as being illogical and I see the belief that there is no God as being illogical.

I do agree with you that many people that call themselves Christians picture a very undesirable, inconsistent, selfish, and arbitrary Creator, so you have the right to reject such a God.

I was interested in why you think it is illogical to believe God could be like Herod Antipas? (I agree with you, but wonder about your logic.)

If there is a Creator of this universe He would have to be virtually infinitely intelligent, since the complexity of the universe is virtually infinite (“The more we know the more we realize we do not know.”) That would also mean this Creator could not have been created, since that would require an even greater intelligence (something does not come from nothing.)

So if there is a Creator, by now He would have had to reach the epitome of either good or evil, but if He is evil why make good perceived as worthy and valuable?

What is the advantage to the Creator to be illogical?

The question than is: “Would an all Loving Creator” fit what we know or would an evil Creator fit better or if neither fits at all would that not show there is no “concerned” Creator and maybe no creator at all?

If there is a truly benevolent Creator, He would have to be the epitome of unselfishness. This Creator would have to always be doing stuff for others and not His own sake.

This type of creator would not be looking to “get” anything from His creation, but would want to give the greatest gifts He could give to His creations.

What would be the greatest gift (having the greatest value) a Creator could give?
 
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Glass*Soul

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I would first just like say how much I admire not only your honesty, but also your willingness to open yourself up for a veritable attack by Christians.

Don't let anyone fool you, we're not a perfect lot. Far from it, Christianity involves a continuous embrace with our "dark side". Part of being a Christian is facing up to our faults and failure and learning to turn them over to God. It's not easy, but it's good.

Anyhow, I know that often times Christians see an atheist or a believer of a different religion and immediately "go at it" thinking they can convert the person on the spot. It's a mindset of, "well this worked for me so it must work for you too!" Nothing could be farther from the truth. Each and every person has their own journey and no one approach will change everybody (save for God to intervene in an undeniable way, which He will never do). That said, I apologize for those who have not realized this and have hurt you as a result. I know that that in itself is enough to prevent almost anyone from becoming a Christian.

All that said, I just have one simple question for you and then maybe I'll go off your response to ask another question. Before I ask it though, let me just clarify that I am NOT trying to convert you. Quite frankly, I can't. I can help in the process if you're interested, but if you're not then there's nothing I can do to make you so. I ask this question because I am genuinely curious. I like to know what other people believe and why. It helps me better understand my own beliefs. As Os Guinness once said, "Contrast is the mother of clarity." I look for the contrast in other beliefs so as to better see the truth in mine. I do indeed believe that Christianity is real and true. I have spent uncounted hours searching for the truth and thus far I have not met with any argument that succeeded in making me doubt my faith. I've seen the other beliefs, I've tested them with what I know, and honestly, I find them to be lacking. This includes atheism, but I will not go into detail with that unless you specifically request it.

Okay, so that said, here's my question: Have you ever believed anything other than atheism? If so, what was it and what caused you to abandon it?


Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I was a Christian for many years. The more I explored the nature of God, the definition if you will of whom I followed, the more I realized that there was no definition. God as God was an undefined and undefinable term. The things I had believed about God were actually projections of human nature. Tear those projections down and there was nothing left. It wasn't a pragmatic decision. It wasn't something I could change my mind about later if it seemed advantageous. It was a shift in my way of thinking.

I don't really think of atheism as a belief, although I am a strong atheist in that I actually actively believe there is no God. But it isn't a system of belief. There isn't really anything else that goes along with it to make it a belief in the way that theism is a belief.
 
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Glass*Soul

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First off: thank you for responding.

I think you have a good reason for not believing in what you think the Christian God is like.

Have you ever thought that just maybe part of the reason God remains questionable is to keep from upsetting people like yourself?

We can both be accused of taking our believes (yours there is no God and mine that there is a God ) and rationally trying to explain everything around us. You see God as being illogical and I see the belief that there is no God as being illogical.

I do agree with you that many people that call themselves Christians picture a very undesirable, inconsistent, selfish, and arbitrary Creator, so you have the right to reject such a God.

I was interested in why you think it is illogical to believe God could be like Herod Antipas? (I agree with you, but wonder about your logic.)

If there is a Creator of this universe He would have to be virtually infinitely intelligent, since the complexity of the universe is virtually infinite (“The more we know the more we realize we do not know.”) That would also mean this Creator could not have been created, since that would require an even greater intelligence (something does not come from nothing.)

So if there is a Creator, by now He would have had to reach the epitome of either good or evil, but if He is evil why make good perceived as worthy and valuable?

What is the advantage to the Creator to be illogical?

The question than is: “Would an all Loving Creator” fit what we know or would an evil Creator fit better or if neither fits at all would that not show there is no “concerned” Creator and maybe no creator at all?

If there is a truly benevolent Creator, He would have to be the epitome of unselfishness. This Creator would have to always be doing stuff for others and not His own sake.

This type of creator would not be looking to “get” anything from His creation, but would want to give the greatest gifts He could give to His creations.

What would be the greatest gift (having the greatest value) a Creator could give?

I have to leave for work soon. I will try to reply and some length tomorrow. In the meantime, there is one question above that I do not understand. Would you be able to rephrase it for me?

Have you ever thought that just maybe part of the reason God remains questionable is to keep from upsetting people like yourself?


Are you suggesting that God is remaining inscrutable in order to avoid upsetting people like myself? Like myself how? Or am I misunderstanding what you are asking?
 
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god's_pawn

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Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I was a Christian for many years. The more I explored the nature of God, the definition if you will of whom I followed, the more I realized that there was no definition. God as God was an undefined and undefinable term. The things I had believed about God were actually projections of human nature. Tear those projections down and there was nothing left. It wasn't a pragmatic decision. It wasn't something I could change my mind about later if it seemed advantageous. It was a shift in my way of thinking.

I don't really think of atheism as a belief, although I am a strong atheist in that I actually actively believe there is no God. But it isn't a system of belief. There isn't really anything else that goes along with it to make it a belief in the way that theism is a belief.

I'm sorry to say it, but I'm pretty sure you're going to have to accept the fact that atheism is a belief. This is evident from the fact that while I think it's fairly easy to produce evidence in favor of God (ontological, moral, teleological, and cosmological arguments considered), it's virtually impossible to bring real serious evidence for the non-existence of God. Thus you are forced to hold your position on a stronger commitment of faith than I do. I believe in God not because I was taught to, not because of preconceived notions about Him, but because I see no other explanation for the arguments I mentioned above.

As far as God's definition goes, I think I'm going to have to conclude that perhaps you misunderstood the definition of God. Obviously, I don't know what you really believed about Him, so I could very well be wrong, but I'm not sure how else you would have come to your conclusion about Him being a projection. How can finite beings project an infinite one? A projection must carry all or some of the qualities of the projector, yet we do not have the qualities of omniscience, omnipotence, atemporality, omnibenevolence, omnipresence, and other infinite and unlimiting qualities of God. How could we possibly project those? God is, by definition, a "maximally great being" which is to say, to best, biggest, most powerful being that could possibly (or even impossibly?) exist. To say that He's just a projection seems to ignore that fact. Perhaps I misunderstand you though, so I will allow you to correct me if I am indeed wrong.
 
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bling

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I have to leave for work soon. I will try to reply and some length tomorrow. In the meantime, there is one question above that I do not understand. Would you be able to rephrase it for me?



Are you suggesting that God is remaining inscrutable in order to avoid upsetting people like myself? Like myself how? Or am I misunderstanding what you are asking?
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Atheist, I have known and spoke with; would be upset if they knew there was the Christian God.

The fact that they do not know there is the Christian God helps them not feel depressed all the time.

God does not want to needlessly upset people, but if it has value God will upset people.

Man’s objective is not to just academically recognize that God exists, what value would that have to you or God?

God is not trying to “force” you beyond your will to do anything (that would not be Loving on God’s part), but God is doing all He can to help willing individuals accept His help (Charity).
 
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Glass*Soul

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Atheist, I have known and spoke with; would be upset if they knew there was the Christian God.

The fact that they do not know there is the Christian God helps them not feel depressed all the time.

God does not want to needlessly upset people, but if it has value God will upset people.

Man’s objective is not to just academically recognize that God exists, what value would that have to you or God?

God is not trying to “force” you beyond your will to do anything (that would not be Loving on God’s part), but God is doing all He can to help willing individuals accept His help (Charity).

Thank you for explaining.

When theists explain or describe God to me, whether they term it the Christian God or not, their descriptions generally do not strike me as being at all likely to correspond to God as God. What they do correspond to is the teller's own greatest self, amplified to some degree or another. I like what you have said above because, if you believe in a God who does not want to upset me unduly, then this is a trait you are likely to attempt to extend to others and that is a good thing for humanity. One of the things I like about Jesus is that he painted a picture of a God who was like the most loving and attentive human father possible but even more so. What a wonderful trait. Yes. Believe in this God if you are a theist. I will suspend my non-belief for a little while for the sake of a loving Father God who does not want to unduly upset his children. It will be good for us all.

An Herod Antipas-like God, not so much. ^_^

OTOH God as God is indeterminate. My every effort to imagine such crashes somewhere in the vicinity of the edge of our universe or veers off into unfathomable concepts and logical impossibilities. This is not something one believes in. Belief requires an object and God as God offers up no object. Understandably, the prospect of perceiving God as God as one's primary relationship is not a very warm and cozy feeling. I'd rather not go there. Luckily there is no reason to do so.
 
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Glass*Soul

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I'm sorry to say it, but I'm pretty sure you're going to have to accept the fact that atheism is a belief. This is evident from the fact that while I think it's fairly easy to produce evidence in favor of God (ontological, moral, teleological, and cosmological arguments considered), it's virtually impossible to bring real serious evidence for the non-existence of God. Thus you are forced to hold your position on a stronger commitment of faith than I do. I believe in God not because I was taught to, not because of preconceived notions about Him, but because I see no other explanation for the arguments I mentioned above.

I am afraid you are going to have to accept the fact that I am not going to accept that atheism is a belief. :p

Seriously though, we may be running into a slight equivocation problem here. Atheism is a belief in the sense that I hold a certain conviction that it is the correct stance regarding a single point of fact. What it is not is a belief system in the same way that Christianity or Buddhism or Scientology are. I do not, as bing put it, "believe atheism" in the way that someone would "believe Christianity" as in finding its tenets and creeds reliable or truthful as a whole. The word "belief" can mean either. See definitions 1 and 4.

(BTW, I may have been misunderstanding bing's meaning. My apologies if I have.)

As far as God's definition goes, I think I'm going to have to conclude that perhaps you misunderstood the definition of God. Obviously, I don't know what you really believed about Him, so I could very well be wrong, but I'm not sure how else you would have come to your conclusion about Him being a projection. How can finite beings project an infinite one? A projection must carry all or some of the qualities of the projector, yet we do not have the qualities of omniscience, omnipotence, atemporality, omnibenevolence, omnipresence, and other infinite and unlimiting qualities of God. How could we possibly project those? God is, by definition, a "maximally great being" which is to say, to best, biggest, most powerful being that could possibly (or even impossibly?) exist. To say that He's just a projection seems to ignore that fact. Perhaps I misunderstand you though, so I will allow you to correct me if I am indeed wrong.
We try to project infinite things. We fail. The effort, in this case, tends to feel successful merely for our having conceived of trying. It is human nature.

It is possible my reply to bing above in post #19 may also help flesh out for you what I do and do not believe regarding God.
 
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