Prosperity 102

[importunity]

No I have seen it work in Nairobi Kenya, when Jerry Saveille started the ministry over there they were supported solely by America, now they are self supported.

 

[Girly3302]

A quote from Andrew Storm a charismatic revivialist.

From Andrew Strom:

Regarding "prosperity", I have to say that the arguments of those in the 'Faith' camp are very familiar to me, but my own studies on this matter convinced me of quite a different viewpoint. Yes, I do believe in God's provision, and that He will financially bless His children so that they can continue to GIVE OUT. But this is very different to the 'Prosperity doctrine' (which I cannot go along with). The Old Testament was very different to the New. It was a "physical" covenant, while the New Testament is a "spiritual" covenant. They had physical riches; we have spiritual riches. I do not believe you can argue that "God wants Christians wealthy" from the Old Testament.

I would ask everyone who wants a real answer on this issue to simply get out a Concordance, such as "Strong's" or another resource. Then look up the words riches, poor, mammon, rich, etc. Look at all the occasions these words were used in the New Testament, and you will develop a very good picture of the correct NT view of this issue. Simply look up every NT Scripture relating to this issue and it will all become very clear.

I believe that Jesus' view of this is pretty much the opposite of today's prosperity teachers. Look up the Scriptures and see for yourself!

 

[Girly3302]

No I have seen it work in Nairobi Kenya, when Jerry Saveille started the ministry over there they were supported solely by America, now they are self supported.

Did you actually live in these countries like I did or is just second hand information?

 

[Girly3302]

This is from Tom Plumb from the Charismatic holiness movement.
http://www.enterhisrest.org/

Think about it.

Martin Luther fought the Roman Catholic practice of indulgences, even though they brought in unprecedented revenue into his church. Indulgences enabled the Vatican palaces to be built into the splendor that we now associate with them. They were far simpler before indulgences were invented!

Today's prosperity doctrine could be viewed as a revival of the essential philosophy behind this fallen practice.

Indulgence: "The remission of temporal punishment still due for a sin that has been sacramentally absolved."

More precisely, it is the payment of money to the church so that the church would clear the plantiff from specific responsibilities before God.

Similarly, today's churches clearly request us to tithe. Give one tenth of your earnings, and God will let you do what you want with the rest . . . and bless you for it. In faith, give more, and God will bless you more.

In contrast, Jesus clearly asks many to give all their treasure to the poor (not necessarily the church), and then follow Him, so they may have treasure in heaven. It was a common practice for new believers to sell their lands and give the proceeds to God. They then went on to live by faith in Him, that He would provide their daily needs, while they were ministering and working. They supplied resources to Him. He then supplied resources to them. There were no churches or mortgages. They met from house to house.

Today's doctrines, as often taught, limit required faith to 10%. Any more is extra. The New Testament pattern is total giving, and total faith for Him to supply as they functioned in their church body that was similarly committed.

Today's doctrines let us off the hook . . . for a fee! Bribe God, so He will let you be as worldly as you please. It's sort of a protection racket.

It even goes so far as being espoused essentially as a God approved high yielding ponzi investment scheme! Paul never had it this good. He had to trust Him directly.
Tom Plumb

 

[seekthetruth909]

This is from Tom Plumb from the Charismatic holiness movement.
http://www.enterhisrest.org/

Andrew Storm and Tom Plumb make some good points.

Seek

 

[importunity]

Did you actually live in these countries like I did or is just second hand information?

I have personal ties with the ministry.

 

[MikeMcK]

I have personal ties with the ministry.

You said you've seen it work.

Have you seen it or did you just hear about it from a second hand source?

 

[importunity]

I have seen it work first hand.

 

[MikeMcK]

I have seen it work first hand.

That's very interesting. So when did you travel to these countries?

 

[importunity]

I try and travel out at least once a year.

 

[Girly3302]

I try and travel out at least once a year.

I lived in a third world country and attended a pentecostal church for 13 years. It preached the prosperity gospel and the 10 fold return concept. I was heavily involved in the ministry. We had a number of churches belonging to our home church with about 10,000 members. 99 % were poor. I worked at a number of the churches and taught bible classes. During this time I never questioned the teachings of the church. I took direction from my leaders and taught what they directed me to teach. After moving to Canada I joined a new church. My husband, whom I met in Canada, encouraged me to read the new testament thoroughly. [In my old church, we mostly taught from the old testament]
When I discussed the prosperity teachings of my old church, my husband told me to use a concordance and read everything on prosperity, money etc. I was surprised by what I found. I couldn’t believe there were so many scriptures speaking out against it. How could I have been so naive?

Now in retrospect when I think back to my old church in the third world, during the whole time I was there, I don’t know of anyone in the church who prospered in any way except spiritual. Some of the most dedicated workers in the church still write me and they are as poor as they were 18 years ago. They all gave generously, above the 10% tithe, but never received any financial blessing in return. So from my personal experience of living in the third world, the prosperity message seems to only work in the western world where most people are prosperous regardless of whether or not they are a christian.But real prosperity, spiritual prosperity, is inclusive to the christian who walks in the spirit, anywhere in the world.

 

[importunity]

I lived in a third world country and attended a pentecostal church for 13 years. It preached the prosperity gospel and the 10 fold return concept. I was heavily involved in the ministry. We had a number of churches belonging to our home church with about 10,000 members. 99 % were poor. I worked at a number of the churches and taught bible classes. During this time I never questioned the teachings of the church. I took direction from my leaders and taught what they directed me to teach. After moving to Canada I joined a new church. My husband, whom I met in Canada, encouraged me to read the new testament thoroughly. [In my old church, we mostly taught from the old testament]
When I discussed the prosperity teachings of my old church, my husband told me to use a concordance and read everything on prosperity, money etc. I was surprised by what I found. I couldn’t believe there were so many scriptures speaking out against it. How could I have been so naive?

Now in retrospect when I think back to my old church in the third world, during the whole time I was there, I don’t know of anyone in the church who prospered in any way except spiritual. Some of the most dedicated workers in the church still write me and they are as poor as they were 18 years ago. They all gave generously, above the 10% tithe, but never received any financial blessing in return. So from my personal experience of living in the third world, the prosperity message seems to only work in the western world where most people are prosperous regardless of whether or not they are a christian.But real prosperity, spiritual prosperity, is inclusive to the christian who walks in the spirit, anywhere in the world.

That’s a bummer that happened, but your experience doesn’t change mine or the Word. And it’s sad that all they taught was out of the Old Testament, because Jesus is in the New. That must be one of there problems they used the Old and left out the New. I don’t know I was not there.

But I have been all over and have seen it work, the last place I saw it work was in Bulgaria a third world country with a group of people that didn’t even believe it at first. They thought it only happened in America. But it happened right there in that poor country of Bulgaria. My first year there was last year, and they are doing great and asked me to come back, so I am going back with a team.

Why it didn’t work for you and your church, I have no clue. There can be multiple reasons, I don’t know you, I just know what you are writing on a page.

As for me it works, as for the people I minister to that do it, it works. I don’t know what else to tell you.

Right now I live in an impoverished area, when I came to the church I pastor now; most people could not even afford to pay attention. Since I have come the ones that have listened and followed through are doing well. I even have young families that are telling me that they have more than they ever have had in their lives.
They are able to do more now for the kingdom of God then they were ever able to do in the past. Not only can they give into every good work, they do give into every good work.

So why did it not work for you, no clue?

Maybe I should send you some of my CD’s and you can see if the teaching is the same or if you see something you have not really seen before. If so just pm me, if not, no big deal.

Won’t cost you a thing, I will send it all for free and sow it into your life.

 

[JimB]

double post. see below.

 

[JimB]

That’s a bummer that happened, but your experience doesn’t change mine or the Word.

*****

So why did it not work for you, no clue?

*****

Either the Word works or it ain’t the Word, it’s just a misinterpretation of it. Do you realize how it sounds when you tell people that the Bible promises them something and then it doesn’t come to pass? It only generates discouragement and guilt for the person who blames themselves for the failure of the promise to work for them.

It does not help to say, “Well, no matter, the Bible is true regardless of whether or not it works like I told you it promises to work.” If I bought a car on the promise of a salesman and the car didn’t work, I am not of a mind to blame myself for not operating it right. The blame lies with the salesman who either intentionally or ignorantly mislead me. Saying you have “no clue” why it doesn’t work is not helpful.

Well, I have a clue. Your interpretation of what biblical prosperity is is, um, wrong.

I wish people would use the same smarts in believing outlandish claims about the Bible.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.

~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

 

[Girly3302]

That’s a bummer that happened, but your experience doesn’t change mine or the Word. And it’s sad that all they taught was out of the Old Testament, because Jesus is in the New. That must be one of there problems they used the Old and left out the New. I don’t know I was not there.

But I have been all over and have seen it work, the last place I saw it work was in Bulgaria a third world country with a group of people that didn’t even believe it at first. They thought it only happened in America. But it happened right there in that poor country of Bulgaria. My first year there was last year, and they are doing great and asked me to come back, so I am going back with a team.

Why it didn’t work for you and your church, I have no clue. There can be multiple reasons, I don’t know you, I just know what you are writing on a page.

As for me it works, as for the people I minister to that do it, it works. I don’t know what else to tell you.

Right now I live in an impoverished area, when I came to the church I pastor now; most people could not even afford to pay attention. Since I have come the ones that have listened and followed through are doing well. I even have young families that are telling me that they have more than they ever have had in their lives.
They are able to do more now for the kingdom of God then they were ever able to do in the past. Not only can they give into every good work, they do give into every good work.

So why did it not work for you, no clue?

Maybe I should send you some of my CD’s and you can see if the teaching is the same or if you see something you have not really seen before. If so just pm me, if not, no big deal.

Won’t cost you a thing, I will send it all for free and sow it into your life.

Actually it did work to a degree for me. I did prosper. But what I don't understand is why it didn't work for the rest of the church? I had many friends there who were stronger in the spirit than I was, and probably had more faith. They gave generously for over a decade with no material return.
My church was mainstream pentecostal. Are there different prosperity teachings in different pentecostal churches? Some more succesful than others? Do you have any Mp3's of your teachings you could email me?

PS My church taught about 90% old testament, 10% new. The pentecostal church i am attending in Canada now also teaches about 90% old testament. I wonder if this is common to p/c churches?

 

[Girly3302]

That’s a bummer that happened, but your experience doesn’t change mine or the Word. And it’s sad that all they taught was out of the Old Testament, because Jesus is in the New. That must be one of there problems they used the Old and left out the New. I don’t know I was not there.

But I have been all over and have seen it work, the last place I saw it work was in Bulgaria a third world country with a group of people that didn’t even believe it at first. They thought it only happened in America. But it happened right there in that poor country of Bulgaria. My first year there was last year, and they are doing great and asked me to come back, so I am going back with a team.

Why it didn’t work for you and your church, I have no clue. There can be multiple reasons, I don’t know you, I just know what you are writing on a page.

As for me it works, as for the people I minister to that do it, it works. I don’t know what else to tell you.

Right now I live in an impoverished area, when I came to the church I pastor now; most people could not even afford to pay attention. Since I have come the ones that have listened and followed through are doing well. I even have young families that are telling me that they have more than they ever have had in their lives.
They are able to do more now for the kingdom of God then they were ever able to do in the past. Not only can they give into every good work, they do give into every good work.

So why did it not work for you, no clue?

Maybe I should send you some of my CD’s and you can see if the teaching is the same or if you see something you have not really seen before. If so just pm me, if not, no big deal.

Won’t cost you a thing, I will send it all for free and sow it into your life.

Actually it did work to a degree for me. I did prosper. But what I don't understand is why it didn't work for the rest of the church? I had many friends there who were stronger in the spirit than I was, and probably had more faith. They gave generously for over a decade with no material return.
My church was mainstream pentecostal. Are there different prosperity teachings in different pentecostal churches? Some more succesful than others? Do you have any Mp3's of your teachings you could email me?

PS My church taught about 90% old testament, 10% new. The pentecostal church i am attending in Canada now also teaches about 90% old testament. I wonder if this is common to p/c churches?

 

[Girly3302]

Like I said, the blessing of Abraham is not material wealth, but salvation and the imparting of the Holy Spirit through faith. The verse you cited even tells you this.

I agree.

 

[pinetree]

Either the Word works or it ain’t the Word, it’s just a misinterpretation of it. Do you realize how it sounds when you tell people that the Bible promises them something and then it doesn’t come to pass? It only generates discouragement and guilt for the person who blames themselves for the failure of the promise to work for them.

It does not help to say, “Well, no matter, the Bible is true regardless of whether or not it works like I told you it promises to work.” If I bought a car on the promise of a salesman and the car didn’t work, I am not of a mind to blame myself for not operating it right. The blame lies with the salesman who either intentionally or ignorantly mislead me. Saying you have “no clue” why it doesn’t work is not helpful.

Well, I have a clue. Your interpretation of what biblical prosperity is is, um, wrong.

I wish people would use the same smarts in believing outlandish claims about the Bible.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.​

~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

Amen Jim!! you can name it,claim it,confess it,speak it,till you are blue in the face.If God has not told you in the subjective,it is not faith.Noah built the ark cause God told him too.Should I now build an ark?? I dont see them claiming,go sell your property and give it to the poor? Why not hold up the letter of scripture fully,go,sell all you have,and give it too the poor! I would like to see it please.I then would feel better to see it balanced,not one sided. You must lead the way please..lets do what the word says. The funny thing is,I dont think we have too,Jesus told that to the rich young ruler,not me.God told Noah,not me. But you have to obey your rules.Soooo, please give it to the poor..whats fair is fair,or else we are scripture plucking,said with respect,pinetree.

 

[JimB]

I was just watching TBN praise-a-thon and heard a “prophet” say that God was going to financially bless someone out in the television audience (like, well, yeah!—there are a million viewers and one of them is sure to have a financial “blessing”). Then he went on to chastise those Christians who did not believe such prophecies or that God wanted to financially “bless” His people (God, our Heavenly Hireling, our Supernatural Man-Servant, it seems, is in the business of making our lives comfortable.) The studio audience got all excited (some of the crying, hoping, I guess, that the prophecy was for them and they were going to have their bills paid supernaturally without them learning to discipline themselves financially, save their money, control their spending, get a job, etc.).

I got this sick feeling in the pit of my stomach about self-anointed “prophets” who only prophesy good and not the a true word from the Lord. The Lord brought to mind this interesting story from 1 Kings 22:

1 For three years there was no war between Aram and Israel. 2 Then during the third year, King Jehoshaphat of Judah went to visit King Ahab of Israel. 3 During the visit, the king of Israel said to his officials, “Do you realize that the town of Ramoth-gilead belongs to us? And yet we’ve done nothing to recapture it from the king of Aram!”
4 Then he turned to Jehoshaphat and asked, “Will you join me in battle to recover Ramoth-gilead?”
Jehoshaphat replied to the king of Israel, “Why, of course! You and I are as one. My troops are your troops, and my horses are your horses.” 5 Then Jehoshaphat added, “But first let’s find out what the Lord says.”
6 So the king of Israel summoned the prophets, about 400 of them, and asked them, “Should I go to war against Ramoth-gilead, or should I hold back?”
They all replied, “Yes, go right ahead! The Lord will give the king victory.”
7 But Jehoshaphat asked, “Is there not also a prophet of the Lord here? We should ask him the same question.”
8 The king of Israel replied to Jehoshaphat, “There is one more man who could consult the Lord for us, but I hate him. He never prophesies anything but trouble for me! His name is Micaiah son of Imlah.”
Jehoshaphat replied, “That’s not the way a king should talk! Let’s hear what he has to say.”
9 So the king of Israel called one of his officials and said, “Quick! Bring Micaiah son of Imlah.”
10 King Ahab of Israel and King Jehoshaphat of Judah, dressed in their royal robes, were sitting on thrones at the threshing floor near the gate of Samaria. All of Ahab’s prophets were prophesying there in front of them. 11 One of them, Zedekiah son of Kenaanah, made some iron horns and proclaimed, “This is what the Lord says: With these horns you will gore the Arameans to death!”
12 All the other prophets agreed. “Yes,” they said, “go up to Ramoth-gilead and be victorious, for the Lord will give the king victory!”
13 Meanwhile, the messenger who went to get Micaiah said to him, “Look, all the prophets are promising victory for the king. Be sure that you agree with them and promise success.”
14 But Micaiah replied, “As surely as the Lord lives, I will say only what the Lord tells me to say.”
15 When Micaiah arrived before the king, Ahab asked him, “Micaiah, should we go to war against Ramoth-gilead, or should we hold back?”
Micaiah replied sarcastically, “Yes, go up and be victorious, for the Lord will give the king victory!”
16 But the king replied sharply, “How many times must I demand that you speak only the truth to me when you speak for the Lord?”
17 Then Micaiah told him, “In a vision I saw all Israel scattered on the mountains, like sheep without a shepherd. And the Lord said, ‘Their master has been killed. Send them home in peace.’”
18 “Didn’t I tell you?” the king of Israel exclaimed to Jehoshaphat. “He never prophesies anything but trouble for me.”
19 Then Micaiah continued, “Listen to what the Lord says! I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the armies of heaven around him, on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who can entice Ahab to go into battle against Ramoth-gilead so he can be killed?’
“There were many suggestions, 21 and finally a spirit approached the Lord and said, ‘I can do it!’
22 “‘How will you do this?’ the Lord asked.
“And the spirit replied, ‘I will go out and inspire all of Ahab’s prophets to speak lies.’
“‘You will succeed,’ said the Lord. ‘Go ahead and do it.’
23 “So you see, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all your prophets. For the Lord has pronounced your doom.”
24 Then Zedekiah son of Kenaanah walked up to Micaiah and slapped him across the face. “Since when did the Spirit of the Lord leave me to speak to you?” he demanded.
25 And Micaiah replied, “You will find out soon enough when you are trying to hide in some secret room!”
26 “Arrest him!” the king of Israel ordered. “Take him back to Amon, the governor of the city, and to my son Joash. 27 Give them this order from the king: ‘Put this man in prison, and feed him nothing but bread and water until I return safely from the battle!’”
28 But Micaiah replied, “If you return safely, it will mean that the Lord has not spoken through me!” Then he added to those standing around, “Everyone mark my words!”
​

In fact, it seems to me that this craving to hear only “good things” from our preachers and prophets will be a mark of the last days:

Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. (2 Timothy 4.2-4)
​

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.

~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

 

[pinetree]

I was just watching TBN praise-a-thon and heard a “prophet” say that God was going to financially bless someone out in the television audience (like, well, yeah!—there are a million viewers and one of them is sure to have a financial “blessing&#8221. Then he went on to chastise those Christians who did not believe such prophecies or that God wanted to financially “bless” His people (God, our Heavenly Hireling, our Supernatural Man-Servant, it seems, is in the business of making our lives comfortable.) The studio audience got all excited (some of the crying, hoping, I guess, that the prophecy was for them and they were going to have their bills paid supernaturally without them learning to discipline themselves financially, save their money, control their spending, get a job, etc.).




I got this sick feeling in the pit of my stomach about self-anointed “prophets” who only prophesy good and not the a true word from the Lord. The Lord brought to mind this interesting story from 1 Kings 22:

1 For three years there was no war between Aram and Israel. 2 Then during the third year, King Jehoshaphat of Judah went to visit King Ahab of Israel. 3 During the visit, the king of Israel said to his officials, “Do you realize that the town of Ramoth-gilead belongs to us? And yet we’ve done nothing to recapture it from the king of Aram!” ​

4 Then he turned to Jehoshaphat and asked, “Will you join me in battle to recover Ramoth-gilead?” ​

Jehoshaphat replied to the king of Israel, “Why, of course! You and I are as one. My troops are your troops, and my horses are your horses.” 5 Then Jehoshaphat added, “But first let’s find out what the Lord says.” ​

6 So the king of Israel summoned the prophets, about 400 of them, and asked them, “Should I go to war against Ramoth-gilead, or should I hold back?” ​

They all replied, “Yes, go right ahead! The Lord will give the king victory.” ​

7 But Jehoshaphat asked, “Is there not also a prophet of the Lord here? We should ask him the same question.” ​

8 The king of Israel replied to Jehoshaphat, “There is one more man who could consult the Lord for us, but I hate him. He never prophesies anything but trouble for me! His name is Micaiah son of Imlah.” ​

Jehoshaphat replied, “That’s not the way a king should talk! Let’s hear what he has to say.” ​

9 So the king of Israel called one of his officials and said, “Quick! Bring Micaiah son of Imlah.” ​

10 King Ahab of Israel and King Jehoshaphat of Judah, dressed in their royal robes, were sitting on thrones at the threshing floor near the gate of Samaria. All of Ahab’s prophets were prophesying there in front of them. 11 One of them, Zedekiah son of Kenaanah, made some iron horns and proclaimed, “This is what the Lord says: With these horns you will gore the Arameans to death!” ​

12 All the other prophets agreed. “Yes,” they said, “go up to Ramoth-gilead and be victorious, for the Lord will give the king victory!” ​

13 Meanwhile, the messenger who went to get Micaiah said to him, “Look, all the prophets are promising victory for the king. Be sure that you agree with them and promise success.” ​

14 But Micaiah replied, “As surely as the Lord lives, I will say only what the Lord tells me to say.” ​

15 When Micaiah arrived before the king, Ahab asked him, “Micaiah, should we go to war against Ramoth-gilead, or should we hold back?” ​

Micaiah replied sarcastically, “Yes, go up and be victorious, for the Lord will give the king victory!” ​

16 But the king replied sharply, “How many times must I demand that you speak only the truth to me when you speak for the Lord?” ​

17 Then Micaiah told him, “In a vision I saw all Israel scattered on the mountains, like sheep without a shepherd. And the Lord said, ‘Their master has been killed. Send them home in peace.’” ​

18 “Didn’t I tell you?” the king of Israel exclaimed to Jehoshaphat. “He never prophesies anything but trouble for me.” ​

19 Then Micaiah continued, “Listen to what the Lord says! I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the armies of heaven around him, on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who can entice Ahab to go into battle against Ramoth-gilead so he can be killed?’ ​

“There were many suggestions, 21 and finally a spirit approached the Lord and said, ‘I can do it!’ ​

22 “‘How will you do this?’ the Lord asked. ​

“And the spirit replied, ‘I will go out and inspire all of Ahab’s prophets to speak lies.’ ​

“‘You will succeed,’ said the Lord. ‘Go ahead and do it.’ ​

23 “So you see, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all your prophets. For the Lord has pronounced your doom.” ​

24 Then Zedekiah son of Kenaanah walked up to Micaiah and slapped him across the face. “Since when did the Spirit of the Lord leave me to speak to you?” he demanded. ​

25 And Micaiah replied, “You will find out soon enough when you are trying to hide in some secret room!” ​

26 “Arrest him!” the king of Israel ordered. “Take him back to Amon, the governor of the city, and to my son Joash. 27 Give them this order from the king: ‘Put this man in prison, and feed him nothing but bread and water until I return safely from the battle!’” ​

28 But Micaiah replied, “If you return safely, it will mean that the Lord has not spoken through me!” Then he added to those standing around, “Everyone mark my words!”​

In fact, it seems to me that this craving to hear only “good things” from our preachers and prophets will be a mark of the last days:

Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. (2 Timothy 4.2-4)​

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.​

~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

Amen again!! The sad thing is..sure God does miracles,yes! But they turn it into an always formula,thats the problem too (among others in their strange teachings) they think we dont get it.They put the emphasis on me,rather than God.Were we there when he created the universe? Good thing we did not have to confess it,whew..pinetree