Prophets- Should Reformed Preachers Be Stoned?

[Biblicist]

That's strange. I thought the New Testament was the explanation of the OT:

I can't quite see your point.

It would be problematic if the explanations themselves are hard to understand, yes?

When it comes to serious Theology, this is why many forsake the more complicated systematic approach for the more convienent and simplistic Biblical theology approach.

Are systematic theologies revealed by the Holy Spirit? Does God lead into the truth that is found in the information conveyed by systematic theologies?

There's a well known saying that goes along the lines of, "Serious Biblical reflection is 90% perspiration and 10% inspiration", where some would even go as far as saying it is upwards of 95/5%.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I have the same general idea of what meetings looked like, though there were some specific rules for order. Paul does not require that every individual had to say something, but apparently that was what was going on at Corinth, and that was the general type of meeting assumed in Paul's teachings on the subject (athe 'commandments of the Lord' which He was passing on to the congregation.)

What do you mean by 'the message'? tongues were to be interpreted. Paul said 'let one interpret.' Why do you say 'one or more interpreters'? The words of prophets were to be judged/weighed carefully. Paul does not give such detailed instructions for how the teaching was to be conducted.

People received the explanation of the Old Testament from the apostles. They now had to apply it to their lives, which differs from person to person. Christ said the Holy Spirit would guide, lead into every truth.

How are we to test if what a person said is the leading of the Spirit or just too much pizza last night?

Nicodemus said nnbody cold do the things Christ did unless God was with him. So the message will be accompanied by amazing revelations or miraculous works. Paul said he gave enough proof of the truth of his message:

2 Corinthians 11:5For I consider myself not in the least inferior to the most eminent apostles.6But even if I am unskilled in speech, yet I am not so in knowledge; in fact, in every way we have made this evident to you in all things.

The false apostles were sophists, professional philosophers and debaters, with wonderful oratory skills.

I'm losing you here. In the Old Testament, certain people were to literally be stoned for certain crimes. The New Testament talks about what is built on the foundation of Christ enduring or being burnt up. Most of us take that as a metaphor of what may occur at the bema seat (or in this life) not as something literal. So I don't quite get your use of mixed metaphors here.

How can you build on the foundation of the apostles, prophets and Christ with good works? This text is obviously talking about being led by the Spirit into all truth. Just as the apostles, prophets and Christ talked about selfless living, so your message about what the Holy Spirit told you should be about selfless living. The false apostles taught there was no exanastasis, out resurrection, attained by sharing in Christ's affliction and death.

Because those who tested the message would use Scripture, and Scripture is like a fire, a hammer that can break even rocks.

Jeremiah 23:29
Is not My word like fire?" declares the LORD, "and like a hammer which shatters a rock?

 

[Wordkeeper]

I can't quite see your point.

If I understood you correctly, you seemed to claim that Paul's grounding in theology from a life spent in training from early childhood made it easy for him to form a systematic theology, towards an easier understanding of the Old Testament. You conflated that idea with a claim for compulsory requirement of theological training for teachers today to teach what Paul formulated.

When it comes to serious Theology, this is why many forsake the more complicated systematic approach for the more convienent and simplistic Biblical theology approach.

Systematic theology makes unequivocal statements claiming support from the text. The non-legalistic and legalistic systems will use, respectively, justification by faith apart from works” (Paul), or, “justification by works and not by faith alone” (James).

Biblical theology may not feel the need for such a resolution.

There's a well known saying that goes along the lines of, "Serious Biblical reflection is 90% perspiration and 10% inspiration", where some would even go as far as saying it is upwards of 95/5%.

The text speaks differently:

Galatians 1
11For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received itthrough a revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

Repeat
1. The message must teach avoiding idolatry.
2. The message must teach how to serve God.
3. The message must be accompanied by signs and wonders.

This is how Paul demolishes the ministry of the presumptuous prophets in Corinth:

1 Corinthians 15
12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Nothing in 1 Cor 15 says it is prophets declaring Christ has not been risen. Rather it is preachers - and possibly teachers.


2 Timothy 2
14Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. 15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.16But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,17and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.19Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.”

Again we see nothing about prophets making those statements of error - it is teachers/preachers.


23But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.

Again we see nothing about prophets making those statements of error - it is teachers/preachers.

2 Corinthians 11
4For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached

Preachers - not prophets in that case.

 

[LinkH]

How are we to test if what a person said is the leading of the Spirit or just too much pizza last night?

I am not sure which point of the discussion we are talking about. But I have sometimes heard people say that a dream one considers to be from the Lord could be too much pizza or something like that. I've never really noticed any connection between my digestive system and pizza. Does any one else notice a connection between their dreams and what they ate the night before? I don't get it. I don't have a frame of reference for this oft- repeated saying.

Nicodemus said nnbody cold do the things Christ did unless God was with him. So the message will be accompanied by amazing revelations or miraculous works. Paul said he gave enough proof of the truth of his message:

I believe in signs and wonders. What point that we were discussing does this tie to exactly? Are you saying that all prophets are miracle workers? The Bible doesn't teach that, but it shows that some were.

The false apostles were sophists, professional philosophers and debaters, with wonderful oratory skills.

Show me this in the Bible and I'll believe it. I suppose it is possible that some of the false apostles in the first century were sophits. But it is not unreasonable to think that the men Paul wrote about in II Corinthians 11 were the same ones he mentioned in chapter 10 when he mentioned false apostles. "Are they Hebrews? So am I." I suppose it is possible that there were some Helenized Jewish sophits false apostles. But if they were trying to have a contest of being more Hebrew than Paul, then it makes more sense that they would not have been the Hellenized variety of Jew. It is unlikely that theyw ould have been sophits.

How can you build on the foundation of the apostles, prophets and Christ with good works? This text is obviously talking about being led by the Spirit into all truth.

Did you bother to read I Corinthians 3 first? In the context, Paul had talked about his planting and Apollos watering, and God giving the increase. The types of labors they engaged in were preaching and teaching. That is the context.

The false apostles taught there was no exanastasis, out resurrection, attained by sharing in Christ's affliction and death.

You can assert that. Maybe, but guessing, you happen to be right. We don't know that. The Bible does nto say that the false apostles taught against the resurrection. That topic does not come up when Paul warns about false apostles.

Jeremiah 23:29
Is not My word like fire?" declares the LORD, "and like a hammer which shatters a rock?

 

[Wordkeeper]

Nothing in 1 Cor 15 says it is prophets declaring Christ has not been risen. Rather it is preachers - and possibly teachers.


2 Timothy 2
14Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. 15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.16But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,17and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.19Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.”

Again we see nothing about prophets making those statements of error - it is teachers/preachers.


23But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.

Again we see nothing about prophets making those statements of error - it is teachers/preachers.

2 Corinthians 11
4For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached

Preachers - not prophets in that case.

2 Corinthians 12
I have become a fool. You yourselves forced me to do it, for I should have been commended by you. For I lack nothing in comparison to those "super-apostles," even though I am nothing.

Apostles and prophets with Christ as the chief cornerstone formulated Scripture.

Nothing they said was of their own. Instead each spoke what they saw the Father speak.

 

[Biblicist]

2 Corinthians 12
I have become a fool. You yourselves forced me to do it, for I should have been commended by you. For I lack nothing in comparison to those "super-apostles," even though I am nothing.

Apostles and prophets with Christ as the chief cornerstone formulated Scripture.

Nothing they said was of their own. Instead each spoke what they saw the Father speak.

To be a bit more precise, the prophet only speaks through the agency of the Holy Spirit and not through the Father.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I am not sure which point of the discussion we are talking about. But I have sometimes heard people say that a dream one considers to be from the Lord could be too much pizza or something like that. I've never really noticed any connection between my digestive system and pizza. Does any one else notice a connection between their dreams and what they ate the night before? I don't get it. I don't have a frame of reference for this oft- repeated saying.

Google 'too much pizza last night'.

I believe in signs and wonders. What point that we were discussing does this tie to exactly? Are you saying that all prophets are miracle workers? The Bible doesn't teach that, but it shows that some were.

Deuteronomy 13
1“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Moses, a prophet, in his discussion with God, raised doubts about his success in getting Israel out of Egypt. Why should anyone believe him? was his question. God gave him the gift of doing miracles, so that people would know that God was with him. Pharaohs magicians, the Israelite slaves, all were persuaded that the finger of God was involved.

This is the function of signs and wonders. They confirm the message. However, prophets were to be destroyed if they taught Israel idolatry, to be selfish, because the sum of Torah was to love others.

Show me this in the Bible and I'll believe it. I suppose it is possible that some of the false apostles in the first century were sophits. But it is not unreasonable to think that the men Paul wrote about in II Corinthians 11 were the same ones he mentioned in chapter 10 when he mentioned false apostles. "Are they Hebrews? So am I." I suppose it is possible that there were some Helenized Jewish sophits false apostles. But if they were trying to have a contest of being more Hebrew than Paul, then it makes more sense that they would not have been the Hellenized variety of Jew. It is unlikely that theyw ould have been sophits.

Paul called the falls apostles 'super apostles'. He admitted he himself had poor speaking skills. However he had knowledge, revelation from God. Also, he had provided all evidence that God was with him:

2 Corinthians 11
5For I consider myself not at all inferior to those “super-apostles.”6And even if I am unskilled in speaking, yet I am certainly not so in knowledge. Indeed, we have made this plain to you in everything in every way.

Did you bother to read I Corinthians 3 first? In the context, Paul had talked about his planting and Apollos watering, and God giving the increase. The types of labors they engaged in were preaching and teaching. That is the context.

People make the mistake of thinking building with straw and wood is doing sinful acts for which they will be judged at the bema judgment. The correct context is prophesying, conveying what God has communicated to us. So we speak what God has taught us. If what we speak is wood and hay, false prophesy, it will be destroyed, because it will be tested against Scripture, because it should be built on that foundation, apostles and prophets, with Christ as the chief cornerstone, and God's word is like a fire, a hammer that breaks even rocks. The speaker himself will survive, is not to be destroyed, but as through fire. Apparently doubts will be raised whether God is with him or her, and whether he should be trusted.

 

[Wordkeeper]

To be a bit more precise, the prophet only speaks through the agency of the Holy Spirit and not through the Father.

John 14
8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be content.” 9Jesus replied, “Have I been with you for so long, and you have not known me, Philip? The person who has seen me has seen the Father! How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own initiative, but the Father residing in me performs his miraculous deeds.

Jews demanded confirmation God was with the prophet, whilst Greeks demanded robust philosophy.

Prophesy is not teaching. Prophesy, miraculous deeds, is proof. Teaching, the message, is always, "You shall love God with all your being and others as yourself". John the Baptist expressed this as giving your second cloak to that poor Jew who was shivering.

The Pharisees, who loved money, hated this teaching. Money was their proof that God was blessing them.

 

[BobRyan]

Repeat
1. The message must teach avoiding idolatry.
2. The message must teach how to serve God.
3. The message must be accompanied by signs and wonders.

This is how Paul demolishes the ministry of the presumptuous prophets in Corinth:

1 Corinthians 15
12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Nothing in 1 Cor 15 says it is prophets declaring Christ has not been risen. Rather it is preachers - and possibly teachers.


2 Timothy 2
14Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. 15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.16But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,17and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.19Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.”

Again we see nothing about prophets making those statements of error - it is teachers/preachers.


23But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.

Again we see nothing about prophets making those statements of error - it is teachers/preachers.

2 Corinthians 11
4For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached

Preachers - not prophets in that case.

2 Corinthians 12
I have become a fool. You yourselves forced me to do it, for I should have been commended by you. For I lack nothing in comparison to those "super-apostles," even though I am nothing.

Apostles and prophets with Christ as the chief cornerstone formulated Scripture.

Nothing they said was of their own. Instead each spoke what they saw the Father speak.

In the texts given nothing at all is said about the false preachers being prophets or apostles instead of preachers and teachers - rather they are said to be preaching - preachers - teaching - teachers.

There are places where false prophets are also spoken of - but they are not all munged into one thing. As 1 Cor 12 points out - they are very distinct from each other.

1 Cor 12
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church:
first apostles,
second prophets,
third teachers,
after that miracles,
then gifts of healings,
helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

 

[BobRyan]

There are true preachers and false ones.

True teachers and false ones.

True prophets and false ones.

And in the NT there were true apostles and false ones claiming to be like the true ones - but totally fake.

 

[LinkH]

Wordkeeper,
About building wood, hay, and stuble on the foundation, I hav enever heard anyone say that wood, hay, and stubble are sin. The context is about building on the foundation of CHrist, after discussing Paul and Apollos' ministry. But the Old Testament prescribed a death penalty for prophesying falsely in the name of the Lord, so wouldn't that be a sin as well?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I thought Jesus Christ made it abundantly clear, no one should be stoned for any reason.

Your one sentence drive by attempt to shoot down the OP doesn't reflect what Jesus' one story teaches or what the rest of the NT teaches. Learn that God still judges. Learn that God gave authority to the apostles to judge. Read Acts 5 to see how two that lied before God fell dead at Peter's feet. Read 1 Cor 5 and 6 to learn that we are to judge those in the Church.

 

[Biblicist]

John 14
8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be content.” 9Jesus replied, “Have I been with you for so long, and you have not known me, Philip? The person who has seen me has seen the Father! How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own initiative, but the Father residing in me performs his miraculous deeds.

I'm sure that this was not your intent but from what I am reading you are presenting a modalist understanding of the Trinity.

Jews demanded confirmation God was with the prophet, whilst Greeks demanded robust philosophy.

Prophesy is not teaching. Prophesy, miraculous deeds, is proof. Teaching, the message, is always, "You shall love God with all your being and others as yourself". John the Baptist expressed this as giving your second cloak to that poor Jew who was shivering.

The Pharisees, who loved money, hated this teaching. Money was their proof that God was blessing them.

Sorry, but I can't see your point.

 

[dqhall]

Should Reformed preachers be stoned if they make a mistake while preaching? If the preacher is talking and he accidentally calls Elisah Elijah, should we pick up stones to throw at him?

John 8 (WEB)
1 ... Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Now very early in the morning, he came again into the temple, and all the people came to him. He sat down, and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman taken in adultery. Having set her in the middle, 4 they told him, “Teacher, we found this woman in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now in our law, Moses commanded us to stone such women." What then do you say about her?” 6 They said this testing him, that they might have something to accuse him of. But Jesus stooped down, and wrote on the ground with his finger. 7 But when they continued asking him, he looked up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground.
9 They, when they heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning from the oldest, even to the last. Jesus was left alone with the woman where she was, in the middle. 10 Jesus, standing up, saw her and said, “Woman, where are your accusers? Did no one condemn you?”
11 She said, “No one, Lord.”
Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more.”

I recall Jesus was offering correction to those who could receive it. I did not read about he and his disciples stoning people. People make mistakes. We are called to repentance.

Jesus taught one should fear God for God has the power to terminate a person's life and destroy a soul forever (Matthew 10:28).

 

[Biblicist]

I recall Jesus was offering correction to those who could receive it. I did not read about he and his disciples stoning people. People make mistakes. We are called to repentance.
Jesus taught one should fear God for God has the power to terminate a person's life and destroy a soul forever (Matthew 10:28).

That's certainly true but of course the Apostles-of-Christ stood by on two occassions where they commanded that both Ananias and Sapphira should die; but your right in that they did not cast any stones.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I'm sure that this was not your intent but from what I am reading you are presenting a modalist understanding of the Trinity.


Sorry, but I can't see your point.

Exodus 4
1Then Moses said, “What if they will not believe me or listen to what I say? For they may say, ‘The LORD has not appeared to you.’” 2The LORD said to him, “What is that in your hand?” And he said, “A staff.” 3Then He said, “Throw it on the ground.” So he threw it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from it. 4But the LORD said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand and grasp it by its tail”—so he stretched out his hand and caught it, and it became a staff in his hand— 5“that they may believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.”

Did God devise a way to convince people that He was with the speaker, to confirm that the message to follow Him, abandon following the world, love God and others, abandon loving yourself only, was true? See above.

John 14
8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be content.” 9Jesus replied, “Have I been with you for so long, and you have not known me, Philip? The person who has seen me has seen the Father! How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own initiative, but the Father residing in me performs his miraculous deeds.

Did Philip ask for the same proof that God gave Moses? See above.

Interestingly, the signs and wonders that Jesus provided was mostly Scriptural revelations, knowledge. He opened the minds of the disciples so that they could understand that whatever was written in Scripture pointed to Him.

How do you see modalism? First, I quoted Scripture. Second, I never made any statement teaching modalism.

Lucy: What do you see in those clouds, boys?

Charlie Brown: I see a ducky, a doggy, and maybe a birdy too.

Linus: on the left, I see the stoning of Stephen, on the right, ...

Charlie Brown: Eeep!

 

[Wordkeeper]

There are true preachers and false ones.

True teachers and false ones.

True prophets and false ones.

And in the NT there were true apostles and false ones claiming to be like the true ones - but totally fake.

He called his opponents super apostles...

 

[LinkH]

He called his opponents super apostles...

Certain specific individuals, who just might have called themselves apostles. It is reasonable to assume from reading the test that these individuals were Jewish, rather than Gentile sophists.

 

[LinkH]

May I ask that we not turn this thread into a death penalty discussion.

That is not the point of the OP. the point has to do with the understanding of 'prophet' and 'prophesy' in scripture. It also has to do with the inconsistency of certain folks in Reformed and other movements who treat 'prophesy' as a reference to real prophesying in one case, and preaching or teaching in another case, inconsistently. I suppose some Reformed people who think this way would be in favor of literally stoning false prophets, but some may be in favor of metaphorically 'stoning' by disfellowshipping. If 'prophesying' applies to pulpit preaching, then the same principles should apply to pulpit preaching.

Also, if one considers prophesying to be adding to the book of Revelation and he considers preaching to be prophesying, he should consider preaching to be adding to the book of Revelation.