Prophetic promises to Israel

[BABerean2]

The hard fact remains undeniable and unchangeable, that the physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel have been promised a future restoration to their ancient homeland, and to their God. The scriptures simply could not be more clear about this, and ALL arguments to the contrary are based on interpretations of what other scriptures mean, rather than on what they actually say.

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

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[SeventyOne]

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

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Is someone arguing the Church hasn't been formed, which includes the Gentiles as part of its makeup? If not, this doesn't actually address the point.

 

[BABerean2]

Is someone arguing the Church hasn't been formed, which includes the Gentiles as part of its makeup? If not, this doesn't actually address the point.

If you are going to argue there will be a future time when modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the New Covenant Church, then it addresses the point perfectly.

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[SeventyOne]

If you are going to argue there will be a future time when modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the New Covenant Church, then it addresses the point perfectly.

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Nope, I'll never argue that. So, I guess that means we're back to it not addressing the point.

 

[BABerean2]

Nope, I'll never argue that. So, I guess that means we're back to it not addressing the point.

My wife and I give financial support monthly to help modern Jews to come to faith in Christ, no matter where they live in the world. Thousands are now also coming to faith in the modern State of Israel.

Most Dispensationalists claim the nation will come to faith after the "Church Age" comes to an end at the pretrib rapture of the Church. My post was intended to address that point.

What viewpoint do those of Calvary Chapel believe?

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[Biblewriter]

Most Dispensationalists claim the nation will come to faith after the "Church Age" comes to an end at the pretrib rapture of the Church. My post was intended to address that point.


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Aside from the timing of the rapture everyone who believes the scriptures, and knows what they actually say, believes this, because Isaiah 66 very clearly teaches that the restoration of the nation of Israel to their homeland will take place after, not before, the Lord comes in power and glory to judge the world. And numerous other scriptures very plainly teach that they will repent at that time, and thereafter will all know the Lord.

Although Bible believing Christians disagree about when the rapture occurs, they ALL know that it is not after the Lord comes in power and glory to judge the world. So all people that actually believe the Bible and know what it says realize that Israel's conversion will take place after, not before, the church is taken to be with the Lord.

That is why ALL attempts to prove this is not correct must, of necessity, be based on interpretations of what various scriptures mean, rather than on what any scripture actually says.

 

[BABerean2]

So all people that actually believe the Bible and know what it says realize that Israel's conversion will take place after, not before, the church is taken to be with the Lord.

Your claim that Israel will be converted apart from the Church is not found in the New Testament.

Based on Romans chapter 11, the only way of salvation comes by being grafted into the Olive Tree, which is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.

The New Covenant Church was foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13.

In Hosea 2:23 we find that the Gentiles would be grafted into the people of God. This is confirmed by Paul at Romans 9:24-25.

The New Covenant Church is the fulfillment of the promises made throughout the Bible.

Christ has only One Bride, not two.

In the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25 Christ made it clear that there will be no second chances.

Those invited to the wedding must be wearing a wedding garment or be rejected, based on Matthew chapter 22.



Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There is no Plan B.


We also find the bride in the Book of Revelation.

a. letters to the 7 churches of ancient Asia Minor

b. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Can a person be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant?)

c. The 144,000- Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (Who are the firstfruits?)

Compare to the following verse from Paul in the Book of Romans describing Christians.

Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ. (Who are the firstfruits of the Lamb?)

The 144,000 are also members of the Church.

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[Biblewriter]

Your claim that Israel will be converted apart from the Church is not found in the New Testament.

This is a totally insignificant observation. Every word of God is true and righteous altogether. If God said something in ANY part of the Bible, it is true. And ANY denial of this FUNDAMENTAL truth is a denial of BASIC CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.

 

[BABerean2]

This is a totally insignificant observation. Every word of God is true and righteous altogether. If God said something in ANY part of the Bible, it is true. And ANY denial of this FUNDAMENTAL truth is a denial of BASIC CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.

 

[jgr]

This is a totally insignificant observation.

On the contrary, it is of utmost significance. In the affairs of humankind, the creation of a new will and
testament completely annuls, voids, and supersedes any and all previous wills and testaments. If a
promissory clause or provision which appeared in a previous will and testament does not appear in the
new one, then that clause or provision is null and void. A new will and testament comes into full force and
effect upon the death of the testator. The writer of Hebrews relates this to Christ in Heb. 9:15-17.

Under the New Will and Testament in Christ's blood, Christ himself is the sole focus and fulfillment of
God's promises, according to 2 Cor. 1:20. This is reaffirmed in Paul's declaration in Gal. 3:16.

Unsurprisingly then, in the New Testament, any promise of a national repatriation of Israel, let alone one
which includes unbelievers, is conspicuously absent. It is therefore null and void.

 

[BABerean2]

This is a totally insignificant observation.

The Apostle Paul was a Jewish scholar before his conversion.

If Paul did not mention a path of salvation outside of the New Covenant Church, it cannot be "a totally insignificant observation".


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[Biblewriter]

On the contrary, it is of utmost significance. In the affairs of humankind, the creation of a new will and
testament completely annuls, voids, and supersedes any and all previous wills and testaments. If a
promissory clause or provision which appeared in a previous will and testament does not appear in the
new one, then that clause or provision is null and void. A new will and testament comes into full force and
effect upon the death of the testator. The writer of Hebrews relates this to Christ in Heb. 9:15-17.

Under the New Will and Testament in Christ's blood, Christ himself is the sole focus and fulfillment of
God's promises, according to 2 Cor. 1:20. This is reaffirmed in Paul's declaration in Gal. 3:16.

Unsurprisingly then, in the New Testament, any promise of a national repatriation of Israel, let alone one
which includes unbelievers, is conspicuously absent. It is therefore null and void.

You are completely mistaken in claiming that "in the New Testament, any promise of a national repatriation of Israel, let alone one which includes unbelievers, is conspicuously absent." Both the national restoration of Israel and the fact that this restoration will include all he nations, are clearly taught in the New Testament, just as they are very explicitly promised in the Old Testament.

 

[jgr]

You are completely mistaken in claiming that "in the New Testament, any promise of a national repatriation of Israel, let alone one which includes unbelievers, is conspicuously absent." Both the national restoration of Israel and the fact that this restoration will include all he nations, are clearly taught in the New Testament, just as they are very explicitly promised in the Old Testament.

The word was "repatriation", i.e. a return to the land; not "restoration". If you have NT scripture for a return to the land, we'd like to see it.

 

[Biblewriter]

Romans 9-11 is one of the passages that is often wrested to justify the false claim that Israel has been rejected forever. But this long passage opens with the words that the promises still, even at that time, still pertained to Paul's "brethren," his "countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites."

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; Romans 9:3-4

And near the end of this very long passage we read, even though these people are presently enemies "concerning the gospel," yet they are "beloved for the sake of the fathers." And then we find the absolutely conclusive statement about this question. "For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable."

28Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 11:25-29

Now your doctrine is that both the gifts and calling of this rebellious nation has been revoked. But the Holy Spirit, speaking through the Apostle Paul, has very clearly stated that they are irrevocable. And these irrevocable promises go so far as to even define the borders of the land in that future day, and to specify which part of that clearly defined piece of real estate will go to each of the twelve tribes.

What you are neglecting is that these same Old Testament promises, which you imagine have been revoked, explicitly say that when they are regathered to the land, the rebels will be purged out from among them, and that all the rest will repent with bitter weeping, and thereafter they will all know Him, from the least to the greatest. So these promises do not include, or even imply, that this restoration will include unbelievers.

 

[Biblewriter]

Romans 9-11 is one of the passages that is often wrested to justify the false claim that Israel has been rejected forever. But this long passage opens with the words that the promises still, even at that time, still pertained to Paul's "brethren," his "countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites."

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; Romans 9:3-4

And near the end of this very long passage we read, even though these people are presently enemies "concerning the gospel," yet they are "beloved for the sake of the fathers." And then we find the absolutely conclusive statement about this question. "For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable."

28Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 11:25-29

You are also neglecting the fact that, without even one exception every New Testament passage about the rejection of Israel included an explicit statement that this was temporary, for every one of them, again without a single exception said "until."

Now your doctrine is that both the gifts and calling of this rebellious nation has been revoked. But the Holy Spirit, speaking through the Apostle Paul, has very clearly stated that they are irrevocable. And these irrevocable promises go so far as to even define the borders of the land in that future day, and to specify which part of that clearly defined piece of real estate will go to each of the twelve tribes.

What you are neglecting is that these same Old Testament promises, which you imagine have been revoked, explicitly say that when they are regathered to the land, the rebels will be purged out from among them, and that all the rest will repent with bitter weeping, and thereafter they will all know Him, from the least to the greatest. So these promises do not include, or even imply, that this restoration will include unbelievers.

 

[jgr]

It appears that we need some clarification.

Romans 9:3-4 states that the promises pertain to fleshly Israel. But Romans 9:8 states that the children of the promise are counted for the seed. The promise or promises are of significance as they relate to the seed.

Who are the children of the promise?

 

[Biblewriter]

It appears that we need some clarification.

Romans 9:3-4 states that the promises pertain to fleshly Israel. But Romans 9:8 states that the children of the promise are counted for the seed. The promise or promises are of significance as they relate to the seed.

Who are the children of the promise?

If the conclusion you are implying were correct, than this would be a flat contradiction, existing only a few verses apat in the same text. This would not be a rational argument, even if the source was only human, rather than the Holy Spirit.

The answer comes in he verses you neglected in between these passages, which clarify that the children of promise are a subset of the children according to the flesh. There is noting in this entire passage that even suggests that the children of promise that are being discussed are a different group from fleshly Israel.

 

[BABerean2]

There is noting in this entire passage that even suggests that the children of promise that are being discussed are a different group from fleshly Israel.

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.


Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.


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[jgr]

There is noting in this entire passage that even suggests that the children of promise that are being discussed are a different group from fleshly Israel.

Thanks for your clarification.

Can believing Gentiles also qualify as the children of promise?

 

[jgr]

Or, more precisely, are believing Gentiles also the children of promise?