Prophetic promises to Israel

jgr

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And they also show that even before that takes place two-thirds of all the inhabitants of the land will be killed. (Zechariah 13)

Zechariah 13:
v. 7 - Jesus quotes most of this verse in Matt. 26:31, shortly before his betrayal.
v. 8 - In the Jewish-Roman wars, two thirds of the Jewish population perished; one third remained.
v. 9 - Over time, the remaining third fled, many to Africa, where many converted to Christianity.
 
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SeventyOne

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Zechariah 13:
v. 7 - Jesus quotes most of this verse in Matt. 26:31, shortly before his betrayal.
v. 8 - In the Jewish-Roman wars, two thirds of the Jewish population perished; one third remained.
v. 9 - Over time, the remaining third fled, many to Africa, where many converted to Christianity.

Then it doesn't fit as fulfillment. Even if one accepted the assumption that full 2/3 of the Jews were killed off by the Romans, which I do not, then to fulfill the prophecy, ALL the remaining 1/3 would have converted, not "many" of them. Even one missed, constitutes a lack of fulfillment.
 
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BABerean2

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Then it doesn't fit as fulfillment. Even if one accepted the assumption that full 2/3 of the Jews were killed off by the Romans, which I do not, then to fulfill the prophecy, ALL the remaining 1/3 would have converted, not "many" of them. Even one missed, constitutes a lack of fulfillment.

You are assuming the Bible never rounds numbers...

Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

God owns the cattle on all the hills, not just a thousand.

.
 
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SeventyOne

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You are assuming the Bible never rounds numbers...

Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

God owns the cattle on all the hills, not just a thousand.

.

You think that's rounding? Do you know what rounding is?
 
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jgr

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Then it doesn't fit as fulfillment. Even if one accepted the assumption that full 2/3 of the Jews were killed off by the Romans, which I do not, then to fulfill the prophecy, ALL the remaining 1/3 would have converted, not "many" of them. Even one missed, constitutes a lack of fulfillment.

Africa wasn't the only destination. The overall historical record isn't complete, but it's not at all unreasonable to believe that, ultimately, whatever their destinations, the full surviving one third did accept Christ.

This is at least a modicum of historically verifiable evidence. What is your evidence?
 
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SeventyOne

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Africa wasn't the only destination. The overall historical record isn't complete, but it's not at all unreasonable to believe that, ultimately, whatever their destinations, the full surviving one third did accept Christ.

This is at least a modicum of historically verifiable evidence. What evidence do you have?

So, you have presumption. Not a very steady foundation. And, yes, it is quite unreasonable to presume such things, especially since Rabbinic Judaism survived the dispersion. Had they all become Christians, Rabbinic Judaism would have been replaced and died off in that generation.
 
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jgr

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So, you have presumption. Not a very steady foundation. And, yes, it is quite unreasonable to presume such things, especially since Rabbinic Judaism survived the dispersion. Had they all become Christians, Rabbinic Judaism would have been replaced and died off in that generation.

There was already a preexisting Jewish presence throughout the world of that day (Acts 2:5), many years before the dispersion. This presence would have continued even with the conversion to Christianity of those dispersed.

My position consists of part historical evidence, part presumption. Yours consists solely of presumption.
 
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SeventyOne

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There was already a preexisting Jewish presence throughout the world of that day (Acts 2:5), many years before the dispersion. This presence would have continued even with the conversion to Christianity of those dispersed.

My position consists of part historical evidence, part presumption. Yours consists solely of presumption.

I am more than well aware there were Jews all around already, and you don't have any historical evidence that the 1/3 who were dispersed became believers. All you have yourself are presumptions. That's all.

You can say whatever you want about my position, but I'm not the one claiming "prophecy fulfilled" based on your self-admitted presumptions. The burden of proof is on you.
 
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jgr

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Tanzania
The Nyambo are a tribe that lives in Tanzania, northern Tanzania, and Southern Uganda as Ankole. Though they have been Christians for centuries, they assert they are descendants of Hebrews who arrived in the Horn of Africa long before the arrival of Somali nomads. They say that Nyambo means "Hebrew" in their language.

Zimbabwe
Lemba
Many Lemba are adherents of Christianity. However, they have preserved some rituals and customs believed to be Jewish in origin and have been found to possess genetic traits in common with other Jewish groups, supporting their claims to ancient Jewish ancestry.
 
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jgr

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Arabia was also a destination. From http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/fled.html:

"Guillaurne is certain that "in the first and second centuries A.D., Arabia offered a near asylum" to the Jews who had been victimized by the "utterly ruthless" Romans.

In the Arabian land considered by many to be "purely Arab," the land which would spawn Islam many centuries later,
numbers of Jewish and Christian settlements were established in different parts of Arabia, both spreading Aramaic and Hellenistic culture. The chief southern Arabian Christian centre was in Najran, where a relatively advanced political life was developed."
 
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BABerean2

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You think that's rounding? Do you know what rounding is?

Since I used to teach math, I do know what rounding is.

However, you are correct, rounding is not the best term in this case.

A better term would be using numbers symbolically or using hyperbole.

Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

.
 
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BABerean2

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So, you have presumption. Not a very steady foundation. And, yes, it is quite unreasonable to presume such things, especially since Rabbinic Judaism survived the dispersion. Had they all become Christians, Rabbinic Judaism would have been replaced and died off in that generation.

Rabbinic Judaism is Talmudic Judaism which began hundreds of years after 70 AD.

There is no record found in the Bible of the writings of Rabbis being the source of truth.

Yes. Christ did speak of their traditions.
However, the Talmud is something far beyond tradition.


Jacob Prasch comes from a Jewish background and is an expert on how Talmudic Judaism developed.


 
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jgr

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As to how it will be determined who is, or is not, a true Israelite, as this determination will be made by the Lord himself, there will be zero problem. Everyone that the God of heaven recognizes as a descendant of the ancient nation of Israel will be brought back to the land. And the judge's decision will be final.

The Israeli government's Law of Return recognizes a non-descendant who has converted to Judaism as being a Jew.

From the beginning, God extended His covenant to non-descendants:

Gen. 17:12: "...which is not of thy seed..."

Would not God continue to recognize these as descendants?
 
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Biblewriter

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The Israeli government's Law of Return recognizes a non-descendant who has converted to Judaism as being a Jew.

From the beginning, God extended His covenant to non-descendants:

Gen. 17:12: "...which is not of thy seed..."

Would not God continue to recognize these as descendants?

I really do not think the Lord, God of heaven and earth, is very interested in the laws passed by the government of a nation that is still in rebellion against His message.
 
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jgr

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I really do not think the Lord, God of heaven and earth, is very interested in the laws passed by the government of a nation that is still in rebellion against His message.

I fully agree. What is interesting is that it is consistent with the racelessness of the original Old Covenant (and of all of God's covenants).
 
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BABerean2

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1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

.
 
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jgr

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1Ti_1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Right.

Here's something of further interest: Every female descendant of a Jewish (including by conversion) mother, in every successive generation, is also considered Jewish, having "inherited Jewishness" from her mother in the previous generation.

I've confirmed this with local rabbis.

So much for God's ageless covenant conditions of faith and obedience.
 
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BABerean2

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Right.

Here's something of further interest: Every female descendant of a Jewish (including by conversion) mother, in every successive generation, is also considered Jewish, having "inherited Jewishness" from her mother in the previous generation.

I've confirmed this with local rabbis.

So much for God's ageless covenant conditions of faith and obedience.

This video discusses the issue of genealogy.

 
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Biblewriter

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The hard fact remains undeniable and unchangeable, that the physical descendants of the ancient nation of Israel have been promised a future restoration to their ancient homeland, and to their God. The scriptures simply could not be more clear about this, and ALL arguments to the contrary are based on interpretations of what other scriptures mean, rather than on what they actually say.
 
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