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Prophecies fulfilled?

Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by Pink Spider, Jul 5, 2013.

  1. Pink Spider

    Pink Spider EUROPEAN ANGLICAN Staff Member Trainee Supporter Angels Team CF Ambassador

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    Greetings!


    Jesus (allegedly) fulfilled 44 prophecies from the OT.

    This is for many Christians a very strong reason to
    believe in him as the savior and messiah.

    I have always been wondering:

    Is it not possible that all or some of these fulfilled prophecies
    are cases of retro-engineered prophecy fulfillment?

    What do I mean by that?

    It's simple: All the authors of the NT were through and through
    familiar with the OT.

    Even Paul who was a Jew but became a Roman citizen.

    So: They knew all the prophecies. What would be easier
    than write their works so that it fit the old prophecies.
    They wouldn't consider that 'lying' - they might even have
    thought that it was a good thing they were doing.

    That is what I mean by retro-engineered prophecy fulfillment.

    How is it possible to know whether they were doing
    this or whether some prophecies were genuinely fulfilled?
     
  2. Joshua260

    Joshua260 Newbie

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    Well, don't forget that these New Testament scriptures were not written in a vacuum. There's a very loud silence from contemporary writers on the subject of his fulfilling all those prophecies. Of course, the Jews would claim that he didn't fulfill ALL of them...and those are ones that Christians say are left for his second coming.

    Also don't forget that Paul would have been one of the last people to "retro-engineer". He was (originally) a Pharisee who persecuted the Christians, remember?
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2013
  3. Pink Spider

    Pink Spider EUROPEAN ANGLICAN Staff Member Trainee Supporter Angels Team CF Ambassador

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    May I ask what you mean? I don't understand - please enlighten me. :)

    What has 'the very loud silence' from contemporary writers to
    do with my question about possible retro-engineered prophecy
    fulfillment ?



    No offense intended! :)
     
  4. Joshua260

    Joshua260 Newbie

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    What I mean is that there are no (at least I don't know of any) extra-biblical writings that pose exactly the same challenge. Jesus' life was not hidden; rather, he was very much in the public eye. Contemporaries desiring to crush the Christian explosion would have written contrary charges about the prophecies being fulfilled. The only contrary claim that was said was that of the Jew's claim that the apostles stole the body from the empty tomb. I don't want to sidetrack your thread but now that I've brought that up, it's worth noting that by the Jews making that claim, they inadvertently substantiate that the tomb was empty...a fact that is sometimes not well understood by some non-believers.
     
  5. Pink Spider

    Pink Spider EUROPEAN ANGLICAN Staff Member Trainee Supporter Angels Team CF Ambassador

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    So, you mean that since Jesus was a well known
    figure and his acts and the circumstances of his
    life were known, the prophecies about him were
    truly fulfilled?

    Maybe. But the gospels were written later - and
    thus the retro-engineered prophecy fulfillment is
    IMHO definitely a possibility.

    I am not talking about those who desired to crush
    the 'Christian explosion' - I am talking about Mark,
    Matthew, Luke and John and their accounts of
    Jesus' life.

    Yes - I know that and I agree.

    The question remains: Did Mark, Matthew, Luke and
    John 'synchronize' their tales of Jesus with the OT in
    order to give the 'impression' that he fulfilled many
    OT prophecies and thus was the messiah?
     
  6. food4thought

    food4thought Loving truth

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    Well, I cannot prove to you they did not, but there is very important point that I can make that mitigates that possibility.

    1) The Apostles all died painful deaths at the hands of those opposed to what they taught (with the exception of John, who at the very least was exiled to a prison colony for it). The center of what they taught was that Jesus was the Messiah predicted, and that He died on the cross and was resurrected. They would know for certain whether their teaching was true or not, yet not a single one of them is recorded as denying the truth of what they taught in order to avoid painful death. See, I can understand people dying for what they believed to be true, as we see many people willing to die for what they believe throughout history... but what about someone dying for what they KNEW FOR CERTAIN was a lie they had made up? And not one of them recanted of anything they taught... so why would they all be willing to die for a lie they had made up?
     
  7. parsley

    parsley . Supporter

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    It's important to question and think that way, because that ability to scrutinize also keeps you out of suicide cults, relational manipulation, and other oddities.

    One thing to keep in mind -- whether Jesus fulfilled the prophecies was a controversy during His earthly ministry, and what caused Him to be put on trial. So you're looking at the writings, but also the people's perceptions during the time which was written about.

    Who do people say I am.


    Things like entering the city on a colt could have been manipulated, but it almost seems that since people knew Jesus knew His scriptures, the procession could have been seen as intentional, tongue-in-cheek, or maybe an official statement of "Okay I give in, I will tell you."

    Prophecy relating to His birth was something He couldn't control; the flight into Egypt would not have been His family's first choice; and of course the slaughter of first-born babies.

    Another question to ask -- how did the Jews know that certain scriptures were Messianic? Many Messianic prophecies had dual meaning, so I sometimes wonder what caused them to conclude Messianic interpretation.
     
  8. Joshua260

    Joshua260 Newbie

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    I totally understood what your question was and I'm saying that your suggestion is highly unlikely. I would also echo the other responses so far. What you're suggesting is a conspiracy of unrealistic proportions.
     
  9. Pink Spider

    Pink Spider EUROPEAN ANGLICAN Staff Member Trainee Supporter Angels Team CF Ambassador

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    Yes it may be unlikely - but unlikely is not impossible.
    I wouldn't call it a conspiracy - and it IMHO does
    not substantially challenge Jesus' message.

    In their eagerness to spread the good news - they
    may have added certain details - to make a couple
    (of not very precise and sometimes odd) prophecies
    appear to be fulfilled.

    I wouldn't blame them. It would IMHO not
    call that a conspiracy at all. :)

    On a personal note:

    I am reading a gospel (Mark) the first time in my life -
    and I am amazed. It's great stuff. Except for the
    uncountable miracles and healings happening all
    the time. But I guess that's my problem, innit? :)
     
  10. Pink Spider

    Pink Spider EUROPEAN ANGLICAN Staff Member Trainee Supporter Angels Team CF Ambassador

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    I think we have to distinguish between the apostles
    and the writers of the gospels.


    I do not doubt the faith of the apostles - neither do I
    deny the faith of the gospel authors.

    This post was created mainly as a response to those
    (like Lee Strobel) who put way too much emphasis
    on the fulfillment of OT-prophecies in my humble
    opinion.
     
  11. Pink Spider

    Pink Spider EUROPEAN ANGLICAN Staff Member Trainee Supporter Angels Team CF Ambassador

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    Yes. The method I described is widely used by
    people who like to manipulate other people
    by attaching false authority in order to achieve
    their (often) sinister goals.

    That's a very interesting point - I didn't realize this
    until now. :)
    (Keep in mind that this is the first time in my life
    that I am reading and studying a gospel).

    Yes - Jesus asks his disciples that. And many times
    he tells them to keep quiet about miracles he
    performed...

    Yes it could be so. I have to keep in mind that
    people knew that Jesus knew His scriptures.
    That put's another perspective on the question
    about prophecies.

    No. But even if those events were not true (many
    scholars doubt them) it wouldn't fundamentally
    alter or annihilate the message of the gospel.

    Yes, you are definitely right. Some of those 'supposed'
    prophecies are kind of hard to discern as such.
    Often (IMHO) they are taken out of context -
    or so it seems.
     
  12. jdbear

    jdbear Guest

    Most Jews today deny Jesus is Messiah for unfulfilled prophecy by misunderstanding what the Kingdom of God is.
     
  13. Pink Spider

    Pink Spider EUROPEAN ANGLICAN Staff Member Trainee Supporter Angels Team CF Ambassador

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    But 44 prophecies were allegedly fulfilled - or is that
    just what the American Fundamentalist Evangelists
    claim?
    (I'm getting more and more concerned regarding
    my sources btw...)

    Back to topic: So the Jewish people do not accept
    the 'fulfilled' prophecies?

    Is that because of:

    a) They weren't really fulfilled?

    b) The Jewish have a higher standard of 'fulfillment' ?

    c) The Jewish don't want Jesus to be the messiah for
    some reason(s)?
     
  14. jdbear

    jdbear Guest

    No they don't, because they believe when Messiah comes, he will fulfill all prophecy concerning himself. (And the fact that Jesus claimed to be God kinda put a damper on the relationship.)
     
  15. Pink Spider

    Pink Spider EUROPEAN ANGLICAN Staff Member Trainee Supporter Angels Team CF Ambassador

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    I thought he already had...:confused:
     
  16. jdbear

    jdbear Guest

    "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain..." Is.65:

    "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity." Mt.13:41

    The Jews are aware that it's the Kings job to give the police, jail guards, locksmiths, etc. new things to do.
     
  17. Pink Spider

    Pink Spider EUROPEAN ANGLICAN Staff Member Trainee Supporter Angels Team CF Ambassador

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    So sorry - I do not understand at all...:doh:

    Would you be so kind as to elaborate a little?

    Thank you! :thumbsup:
     
  18. intojoy

    intojoy New Member

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    You are looking for "Messianic Christology" by Arnold Fruchtenbaum which can be downloaded from their website Ariel Ministries. There is no other Bible teacher alive today that compares to him. You should check him out and ask your questions there.

    Yours for the salvation of Israel,

    Intojoy
     
  19. Pink Spider

    Pink Spider EUROPEAN ANGLICAN Staff Member Trainee Supporter Angels Team CF Ambassador

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    Thank you for your post! :thumbsup:

    Thanks I will check it out! :)
     
  20. intojoy

    intojoy New Member

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    Thank you for asking