Proof God created evil

[thesunisout]

You know Who God is. Good. Do you know everything about Him? Do you know all doctrine perfectly? If you don't, how do you learn? Do you pray and spend time with Him (sounds like you do)? What if He still hasn't answered you? Do you ask a question on Christian Forums only to be told you actually don't know God well enough and you should stop asking questions? (I'm being serious here, because this is exactly what you are doing at the moment. And again, I'm not going through this conversation for my sake, this is for you).

No, I don't know everything about God. I know enough about God to know who He is and what He expects of me. I know that He is sovereign and has absolute control over my life, and that if I surrender my will to Him He remakes me in the image of Jesus Christ. When I don't surrender my will to Him I go back to my old nature and act like the devil who I was slave to most of my life. This is my practical experience in every day life, it isn't theoretical.

I am telling you to do what He told me to do. He didn't guarantee that He would answer any of my questions, and I accepted that. He specifically told me to stop questioning Him and trust what He had already revealed to me. It is an answer for you; aren't you interested in the answer that God gave me that helped me overcome all of my doubts? Perhaps you could pray about it?

God was a mystery hey, but He is no longer a mystery? I believe what you mean is, you had an idea about Him but had never actually surrendered to Him. And then He started teaching you Who He really is, and you love Him for it! But let's just get something clear, He is still a mystery, right? In the same way, I love my wife, I know her better than anyone and vice versa, but she is still a mystery to me!

The mystery has been revealed!

Colossians 1:26-27

I became its servant by the commission God gave me to fully proclaim to you the word of God, the mystery that was hidden for ages and generations but is now revealed to His saints, to whom God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory

Jesus Christ is the revelation of the mystery; Christ in us, the hope of glory. What does that mean to you?

Do you know that the church is the bride of Christ? God is not withholding Himself from us because He desires intimacy. He is not keeping us at arms length, He is wooing us with cords of love. Again, for me this is practical every day experience and not theoretical.

You were going by your own understanding, but now you don't? So who's understanding are you going by? God's? That's a pretty bold claim. Now I'm not saying He can't guide you into a good understanding, He most definitely can, and does. But in the present, we are all in need of changing our thinking (repentance means: to change the way you think, to turn in a new direction). Perhaps you go by the bibles understanding? Well there's many interpretations and there'll be thousands of verse you don't have the right thinking about yet. Have a good think and pray about all of this, because you are still going by your own understanding in certain areas, and that's okay! Just remove the arrogance that masquerades as faith, and own that you don't know everything about God or the Bible, but you do know Him, and you trust in Him in the meantime.

I didn't understand the bible before I got saved. No one had taught me the gospel or what is in the scripture; no man was actually involved in me getting saved. What I know about scripture has been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. I don't have a perfect understanding of scripture, I see in a mirror dimly, but He has revealed to me everything I am sharing with you.

If you think that the depths of scripture relate to these philosophical questions, you'd be wrong about that. These questions are actually entirely superficial because they are all directly answered; it's just that people don't like the answers that are given. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hid in the Father and Jesus Christ. The whole scripture is about Jesus Christ. It is getting to know Him, to be like Him, to abide in Him, to be remade in His image; these are the depths and riches of His word.

Here is the straw man. You have created for yourself an image of who I am and where I am at in my walk with God. Whether it's by the way I write, or that I am writing questions about God, or that I'm posting in the philosophy section, whatever it is, you have judged me. Now I want you to realise that when a person questions any doctrine the church holds sacred, they try and belittle the person and encourage them to "forget about it, seek God and leave these things to rest". This is a RELIGIOUS SPIRIT that disallows questions and brands them doubts and sinful. This is the spirit that drives people out of faith and into long term doubt. Teaching a person to hide their questions deep down under "trusting God" is not a long term solution. It's a short term fix. Better is to just say "I don't know" than "don't ask that question". My question is NOT SINFUL. It is truly seeking for God, and it does not deserve the condemnation you spew forward with subtlety. IT IS NOT HELPFUL. Questions are GOOD. I am not in doubt, I am seeking to know God in a closer way

You're wrong, it isn't a religious spirit; it is what God told me to do. If you don't want to accept that, or at least pray about it, that's your decision. Read the scripture and find a story about God rewarding someone who questioned His character. You won't find it. There are a lot of examples of people questioning why God was doing something, but they never questioned His character. Many didn't understand what God was doing, many cried out to God begging Him to answer because it seemed God was casting them off, but they never accused Him of being unjust.

Do you understand God doesn't have to answer you, and He doesn't owe you an explanation? If you are making an answer from Him a condition to your belief in Him, that is a sin. If you aren't, then it isn't really a big deal, is it?

This is what it comes down to:

If God is the author of sin then He isn't holy

That's your basic assertion, isn't it?

If He isn't holy then the bible is wrong

At that point you are free to make up your own God

So let me ask you this:

Do you believe that the bible is the word of God?

If you don't, how much of it do you believe?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I know that He is sovereign and has absolute control over my life

There are many Christians who know otherwise: see Sovereignty Of God - Andrew Wommack Ministries

Does your disagreeing (if you do disagree) mean they don't know God?

This is my practical experience in every day life, it isn't theoretical.

Except that your practical life relies on your theoretical beliefs.

He specifically told me to stop questioning Him and trust what He had already revealed to me.

Very good. It is a good place to be. And then, what if he tells you to seek for more of Him? I encourage you to remain as you are, until, He directs you into a new season. But I encourage you to not judge others who are in a different season themselves.

It is an answer for you; aren't you interested in the answer that God gave me that helped me overcome all of my doubts? Perhaps you could pray about it?

I've lived there. It's a good place. And the peace remains even if I am out to help knock over some sacred cows.

The mystery has been revealed!

Colossians 1:26-27

There is no more mystery?

no man was involved in me getting saved.

Are you accountable to anyone?

What I know about scripture has been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit

Same.

You think the depths of scripture relate to this philosophical questions, but you're wrong about that. Those are entirely superficial.

More pride.

You're wrong, it isn't a religious spirit

Why don't you ask someone close to you who you know would tell it as it is.

accused Him of being unjust

I don't understand why you still think this is what I am doing. Show me the accusation. "Proof that God created evil" needed to be unproven because I don't believe it's true, but I didn't know what was wrong in my the logical deductions. I also find a lot of really bad answers are not helpful for someone asking these questions, so I reply so as to show them why those answers are not helpful. This is what I am doing with you. We are in philosophy forum intended to be discussing philosophy, but you have turned it into a personal attack on my faith. Do you understand how this is inappropriate?

If you are making an answer from Him a condition to your belief in Him, that is a sin. If you aren't, then it isn't really a big deal, is it?

I'm not sure you understand that this has nothing to do with belief in Him, but belief about Him i.e. doctrine, lens, theology, philosophy etc. I believe in Him either way and am willing to change my mind about certain philosophical points regarding Who He is as long as they align with Who I know Him to be - but this is a philosophy forum, and my own experience does not need to be discussed.

I never said it was a big deal. I really don't understand why you are so keen on condemning a question. Questions that I can't answer DO NOT SCARE ME, and that's why I ask them, because my faith can handle it, and I know God isn't insecure.

If God is the author of in then He isn't holy

Not necessarily, though I do not believe He is the author of sin.

If He isn't holy then the bible is wrong

I didn't discuss anything even remotely like this in the thread.

Do you believe that the bible is the word of God?

If you don't, how much of it do you believe?

I guess the thread is pretty much done, so we can move onto a tangent, I think?

Calling it the "word of God" is misleading. The words in the Bible are not the literal words of God. He didn't write it Himself. The Bible is the record of the covenant history between God and humanity. It is the highest authority on spiritual things but is not inerrant. It is of the greatest spiritual value of any book available. The willingness of Christians throughout history to die for the Bible reveal how important it still is for us today. But the scriptures are not God, they are not the Word, they do not divide even to the bone and marrow, and they are not for eternal life; because all these jobs are for Jesus Himself, and the bible will lead us to understand His truth (John 5:39). Christians, too often, worship the Bible. My aim is generally to pull it back down into what I think is its rightful place.

Do you remain in accusation? Or do you see clearly, that this is a philosophy thread?

 

[thesunisout]

I guess the thread is pretty much done, so we can move onto a tangent, I think?

Calling it the "word of God" is misleading. The words in the Bible are not the literal words of God. He didn't write it Himself. The Bible is the record of the covenant history between God and humanity. It is the highest authority on spiritual things but is not inerrant. It is of the greatest spiritual value of any book available. The willingness of Christians throughout history to die for the Bible reveal how important it still is for us today. But the scriptures are not God, they are not the Word, they do not divide even to the bone and marrow, and they are not for eternal life; because all these jobs are for Jesus Himself, and the bible will lead us to understand His truth (John 5:39). Christians, too often, worship the Bible. My aim is generally to pull it back down into what I think is its rightful place.

Do you remain in accusation? Or do you see clearly, that this is a philosophy thread?

This is why we don't agree on anything; you don't think the bible contains Gods words. God did actually write the scripture Himself, inspiring men to do so by the Holy Spirit:

Mark 12:35

Then Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.

If you don't believe the scripture then there isn't much I can do to convince you. All I can say is that your dismissal of the scripture, something Jesus never did, is from the flesh and not the Spirit.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

This is why we don't agree on anything

I would think quite the opposite in the scheme of things! We both agree:
1. Jesus was God
2. Jesus is the Way to heaven
3. A saving relationship with God is through Jesus
4. The Holy Spirit speaks to us today
5. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit
6. Angels exist
7. etc.

If you don't believe the scripture then there isn't much I can do to convince you. All I can say is that your dismissal of the scripture, something Jesus never did, is from the flesh and not the Spirit.

What do you mean "If you don't believe the scripture"? It seems to me I write something, and you read something entirely different to what I am writing. I'll requote what I already said:
1. It is the highest authority on spiritual things
2. It is of the greatest spiritual value of any book available
3. The willingness of Christians throughout history to die for the Bible reveal how important it still is for us today
4. ...all these jobs are for Jesus Himself, and the bible will lead us to understand His truth (John 5:39)

I don't "believe in scripture" in the way I "believe in Jesus", do you? But I do hold it in the highest possible regard in terms of authority on doctrine. The reason I do not like to call it "the word of God" or similar is because it is misleading. Someone who picks up the bible and reads that women should keep quiet in church will think God is instructing this, when in fact it was Paul under the influence of the Holy Spirit writing to the people in his culture (not ours). He's literally writing a letter to real people, not to us, but we can learn about God by the Spirit behind the writings! This is why the Holy Spirit is so important when reading, as you have shown you already know. And later it was placed into a compilation of writings we now know as the bible. Most often the bible is placed on an unnecessary and very flimsy pedestal. It's a dangerous thing because when our faith is in the bible instead of rooted in Jesus, when the bible is attacked, our faith is attacked. But our faith remains in the God of the bible, not in the bible itself.

 

[Gary Kendrick]

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p')^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

SOLVED: FAULT FOUND IN PREMISE #4
As a free agent develops in their relationship with God, they are less likely to do evil. The probability of doing evil is then a decreasing exponential function approaching zero. For example, we might arbitrarily choose p=e^-t as t→∞ and t>0 (e=natural log, not to be confused with e=evil).

The equation when taking the complement of p is then:

P(e)=1-(1-e^-t)^t as t→∞ and t>0

And this approaches 0, not 1.

Here is the problem I have with arguments like this one. As a Christian I rely on my faith and God's Holy Spirit to lead me unto Christian maturity and keep my faith, in God, secure and firm. Also as a Christian I accept that I am human and flesh and thus very limited in my abilities. I also remember the scripture that relates a conversation between Moses and God with regards to mankind's potential curiosity about just who God is or proving Himself unto people.

Exodus 3:13-14 (NIV2011)
13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”​

There are times, I believe, that we have to rely upon our faith for there are answers that we are not given, in Scripture, and there are many things that we, humans, limited in creation as we are, cannot conceive of or comprehend, given our limited abilities. I believe there are many of these things that we must rely upon God to have the answers for and not become bogged down in our own Christian lives account of questions beyond the scope of our own understanding. Defining who, what, where God is or being able to comprehend God at all. That understanding is beyond our own capability. Mankind cannot even conceive of eternity or grasp, actually, what it is whether it's eternity future or eternity past it is a concept beyond our comprehension. The relationship between God and evil is another given the attributes we assign unto God, based upon the Scriptures we have.

Where Scripture is silent we, Christians, have God's Holy Spirit to comfort and guide us. While we can rationalize and even justify some questions, based upon our understanding of Scripture we ultimately should realize that some questions are best left in the realm of faith rather than striving to come up with answers that are based in and on human wisdom and reasoning when the actual answers fall in the realm of the Spiritual and are best understood in the light of God's own abilities. Some questions, I fear, can also be a hindrance to our faith and Christian growth because in attempts to answer them we must answer from a human perspective and often times humanize God in order to answer that which has no earthly/human answer. We seek to confine and define God with and in human confines and restrictions. It is just that we need, I believe, to rely upon faith that God is in control and will take care of us and keep us through His limitless and undefinable power(s).

 

[thesunisout]

I would think quite the opposite in the scheme of things! We both agree:
1. Jesus was God
2. Jesus is the Way to heaven
3. A saving relationship with God is through Jesus
4. The Holy Spirit speaks to us today
5. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit
6. Angels exist
7. etc

I'm glad we can agree on what matters, that is surely very encouraging.

What do you mean "If you don't believe the scripture"? It seems to me I write something, and you read something entirely different to what I am writing. I'll requote what I already said:
1. It is the highest authority on spiritual things
2. It is of the greatest spiritual value of any book available
3. The willingness of Christians throughout history to die for the Bible reveal how important it still is for us today
4. ...all these jobs are for Jesus Himself, and the bible will lead us to understand His truth (John 5:39)

You also said it didn't contain Gods literal words, so I want to clarify that before we get into other things..

Can we agree that everything Jesus said was Gods literal words, since He only spoke what the Father told Him to say and because He is God Himself? Therefore, what percentage of the sayings of Jesus would you say are accurate? How much can we trust the words of Jesus Christ that we have today? How much of man is mixed into it?

If we can't really trust them then it what sense are they authoritative?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Can we agree that everything Jesus said was Gods literal words

If Jesus says something then God is literally speaking through Him, He was God on earth, God in the human form etc. We both agree on this and we both worship Him as Lord. Hallelujah! Now, have you thought about the way the bible was written? Was there someone following Jesus around writing down everything He said and did? We often think that there was, that the bible is word for word exactly what Jesus said. But this would only be true if there was actually someone writing His sayings down as He said them. Otherwise, it would have to be human memory plus the Holy Spirit.

There is also the problem of by whom and when the gospels were written. I haven't looked into this enough to be confident on what I think just yet. But one thing I am confident about is that the Spirit behind the gospels is the Holy Spirit. We learn about Jesus and the things He said (even if not exactly word for word) in the closest form we have to His actual words. Most important is getting to the heart of the message, as explained by Paul. Nevertheless, in writing this, I am still happy to quote verses from the gospels and to build doctrine because it is the best we have.

For me, the Holy Spirit resonates most with those passages of the bible explaining how God is love expressed in the salvation of Jesus, how God cares about us, and how He wants us to care about each other. I find the gospel of salvation message especially freeing and life-changing; there's no question in my experience that the saved by faith gospel is a powerful message releasing healing, life and the supernatural. But it does not rely on the literal perfection of the Bible.

If we can't really trust them then it what sense are they authoritative?

To put it as clearly as I can:

1. Authoritative: The bible is intended for teaching, rebuking, growth, righteousness and training as Paul explains in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 - noting that Paul was pointing to the Septuagint - the 39 books put together in 300BC. Importantly however, even the writings of the New Testament were beginning to be recognized as Scripture such as in 2 Peter 3:15-16 where Peter places Pauls writings on par with the Septuagint.

2. Inspired: 2 Peter 1:19 explains that the Holy Spirit inspired the writings in the Bible.

3. Therefore, if someone thinks they hear from God and it is in opposition to the Bible, they've heard wrong.

The Bible is not innerrant or infallible (would you like some proof of this?). But it is authoritative and inspired.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe we can lead a righteous life according to the scripture. I don't think anyone has to sin, and we have no excuse for our sin. It's clear from the scripture that saints do sin however, whether willfully or unknowingly:

1 John 2:1

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

If saints never sinned we wouldn't need an Advocate; that is why God has made a provision for our sin.

If you're talking about sinless perfectionism then we don't need to proceed any further. I think that interpretation of scripture is flawed, that its adherents do not rightly divide the word of truth.

I just recently created a thread with 50 points in Scripture that defends Sinless Perfectionism.

I also provided Biblical explanations to the 12 Common Objections to Sinless Perfectionism, as well.

You can check out and reply to my thread (if you are interested).

Here is the thread link:

A Biblical Defense of Sinless Perfectionism.


...

 

[John 1720]

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p')^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

SOLVED: FAULT FOUND IN PREMISE #4
As a free agent develops in their relationship with God, they are less likely to do evil. The probability of doing evil is then a decreasing exponential function approaching zero. For example, we might arbitrarily choose p=e^-t as t→∞ and t>0 (e=natural log, not to be confused with e=evil).

The equation when taking the complement of p is then:

P(e)=1-(1-e^-t)^t as t→∞ and t>0

And this approaches 0, not 1.

Agree with you that the probability of doing evil decreases for those in a true relationship with God over time. But we also know that evil begets evil so for those who continue down their own ways committing evils increase their capacity for evil until evil completely divests them from the goodness of God. So there is the possibility of both a negative and positive exponential over time. Thank the Father for sending Jesus for if He had not made a way for the sinner what a hopeless estate for all of us it would be! Only God can turn a negative to a positive.

I also think what gets lost on most people is the definition of evil. Evil is simply departing from God's way or doing the opposite of God's good will toward His creation. Free will allows for good will or God's will; for if we had no free will we'd merely be robotic puppets - where's the good in that. Instead God allows us to choose whom this day you will serve, the creator or the created. We know that when man serves his own interests what we get - just turn on the 6 o'clock news or turn your eyes toward the stupidity magazines at the supermarket checkout. We also know that God is the ultimate good and that He is rich in mercy, even sending His Son to pay our penalty for turning away from God and His goodness. It is therefore the love and kindness of God that draws us back from our evil ways and fallen state to the heart of goodness, God Himself. Therefore God did not create evil but made allowances for His creation to choose to depart from Him or embrace Him. Interestingly more He creates good out of evil by not only striving with man within the domain of their earthly lives but taking upon Himself, in a great act of love and self sacrifice, the repulsive sins of mankind. They say love conquers all - and Christ's sacrifice proves it. So if you want to play a statistical celestial poker game with God I think He has not only called us all but, for those who want in, He has raised you to the infinite power.

Therefore God did not create evil because He Himself cannot do evil since evil is simply going in way that is contrary to God. Choice is good - in fact at the end of the day it is very good. Evil shall run its course but in the end will amount to nothing but the great void for it has nothing to do with who God is and even though "it was and is not" an entity greater goodness at the end of the day shall be effected by the grace and goodness of God; this for those who have turned from it and endured it for the love of God.
May the Lords Ways fill the earth, Pat

 

[CrystalDragon]

Agree with you that the probability of doing evil decreases for those in a true relationship with God over time. But we also know that evil begets evil so for those who continue down their own ways committing evils increase their capacity for evil until evil completely divests them from the goodness of God. So there is the possibility of both a negative and positive exponential over time. Thank the Father for sending Jesus for if He had not made a way for the sinner what a hopeless estate for all of us it would be! Only God can turn a negative to a positive.

I also think what gets lost on most people is the definition of evil. Evil is simply departing from God's way or doing the opposite of God's good will toward His creation. Free will allows for good will or God's will; for if we had no free will we'd merely be robotic puppets - where's the good in that. Instead God allows us to choose whom this day you will serve, the creator or the created. We know that when man serves his own interests what we get - just turn on the 6 o'clock news or turn your eyes toward the stupidity magazines at the supermarket checkout. We also know that God is the ultimate good and that He is rich in mercy, even sending His Son to pay our penalty for turning away from God and His goodness. It is therefore the love and kindness of God that draws us back from our evil ways and fallen state to the heart of goodness, God Himself. Therefore God did not create evil but made allowances for His creation to choose to depart from Him or embrace Him. Interestingly more He creates good out of evil by not only striving with man within the domain of their earthly lives but taking upon Himself, in a great act of love and self sacrifice, the repulsive sins of mankind. They say love conquers all - and Christ's sacrifice proves it. So if you want to play a statistical celestial poker game with God I think He has not only called us all but, for those who want in, He has raised you to the infinite power.

Therefore God did not create evil because He Himself cannot do evil since evil is simply going in way that is contrary to God. Choice is good - in fact at the end of the day it is very good. Evil shall run its course but in the end will amount to nothing but the great void for it has nothing to do with who God is and even though "it was and is not" an entity greater goodness at the end of the day shall be effected by the grace and goodness of God; this for those who have turned from it and endured it for the love of God.
May the Lords Ways fill the earth, Pat

I wonder though, what about those who say God tells them to kill friends or family members, and they feeling doing so will bring them closer to God.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I wonder though, what about those who say God tells them to kill friends or family members, and they feeling doing so will bring them closer to God.

...at that point, it might be time to call the cops.

 

[RDKirk]

1. God knows evil will occur in the future if He creates a free agent
2. God creates a free agent
3. A free agent chooses evil
4. God did not create evil

Isn't this like saying:
1. I know pain will occur in the future if I give a gun to an adult
2. I give a gun to an adult
3. The adult chooses to shoot someone
4. I did not shoot anyone

In both examples, it seems the one who sees the future outcome is both responsible and the primary cause of the later actions. Or maybe not?

1. I know pain will occur in the future if I give a gun to an adult
2. I give a gun to an adult
3`. I control all the causal factors that will lead to the adult shooting someone. I have the power to vanish the adult from all time and space instantly merely by ceasing to continue willing his existence. But his existence and actions fit within the plan I devised before I created the universe (Colossians 1)
3. The adult chooses to shoot someone
4. I did not shoot anyone. But all has happened and will happen precisely as my sovereign will designed it before I created the universe to lead to my eternal end goal with the exact perfection that I designed.

 

[RDKirk]

For if a god were to directly create evil beings with no other choice otherwise but to do evil from out of the starting gate, then that would be wrong. For it would be wrong for such a god to do such a thing because it is doing evil alone (sowing evil directly).

Who says it would be wrong? You? Your conscience--at best--only tells you what would be wrong for you. In fact, your conscience cannot even tell you what is wrong for any other person (Romans 14), so certainly it cannot tell you what would be wrong for God.

Does scripture say somewhere that it would be wrong? Does scripture say that God has never created something evil? In fact, it says the opposite.

If God did it, it would not be wrong, it would be Godly.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

1. I know pain will occur in the future if I give a gun to an adult
2. I give a gun to an adult
3`. I control all the causal factors that will lead to the adult shooting someone. I have the power to vanish the adult from all time and space instantly merely by ceasing to continue willing his existence. But his existence and actions fit within the plan I devised before I created the universe (Colossians 1)
3. The adult chooses to shoot someone
4. I did not shoot anyone. But all has happened and will happen precisely as my sovereign will designed it before I created the universe to lead to my eternal end goal with the exact perfection that I designed.

So you chose: "Yes" on the poll? Or are you a compatibilist? Do you believe God created evil for the sake of some future good?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Who says it would be wrong? You? Your conscience--at best--only tells you what would be wrong for you. In fact, your conscience cannot even tell you what is wrong for any other person (Romans 14), so certainly it cannot tell you what would be wrong for God.

Does scripture say somewhere that it would be wrong? Does scripture say that God has never created something evil? In fact, it says the opposite.

If God did it, it would not be wrong, it would be Godly.

Or, if God did not it, but you think He did, then you are attributing evil to God, maligning His character, and working against Him. This is the other possibility...

 

[RDKirk]

Or, if God did not it, but you think He did, then you are attributing evil to God, maligning His character, and working against Him. This is the other possibility...

No. I never attribute "evil" to God, regardless what He does. Here is where we get into definitions.

A lot of people believe they have the prerogative to define "good" and "evil" for themselves and then to apply their definitions to the acts of God--which is precisely the temptation Satan used against Adam and Eve and is the point to that story: The desire to judge God.

I don't judge God's actions as good or evil. In my estimation, "good" is whatever God does or commands according to His plan, and "evil" is anything different from that.

 

[angela4God]

Wow! I'm totally surprised at the survey results. The majority said no. Wow!

But how?! (rhetorical question)

I mean God created EVERYTHING! (Please note caps are for emphasis, not yelling, never yell *smile*).

So if 'everything' is God's creation, then evil is also. It's part of 'everything' isn't it?

Think of this...

If He didn't create evil, then HOW would we have a choice (between good and evil)? Then there would BE no choice. Then evil wouldn't be a choice because He didn't create it, it wouldn't exist, again back to He created everything.

It's there so we CAN choose. Our free will either will bring us to God or away from Him.

The best love isn't one that's forced. I, personally, don't want my close ones to love me because they are forced to. But out of free will. Because the WANT to.

In the same way, God wants us to choose. To choose Him. To choose good... from the heart, genuinely (as I mentioned in another post).

So to conclude, if we believe that God created everything. Then evil is part of the everything, is it not? It doesn't besmirch, it shows the open hand with which God loves us. Giving 'us' the choice of loving him (good) or not (evil).

Personally, I don't need 'proof', in the same way that I don't need 'proof' of God's existence. Isn't that what faith is?

Glory to God!!!

 

[John 1720]

I wonder though, what about those who say God tells them to kill friends or family members, and they feeling doing so will bring them closer to God.

Yes, Jesus covered that topic in depth and with great clarity. There are two designs at work in this fallen world:

1. one will steal and destroy every gift God has endowed us with. That has been the deceiver's design and intent from the Garden.
2. But God's design is restoration, calling sinners to repentance, and bringing eternal life through His Son, our Lord, Christ Jesus.

The motivations of satan and the motivations of God

“The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

Evil holding sway in this world vs the coming kingdom
Sometimes when we see how much evil there is in the world and how it "appears" to be never ending Christians can get restless and perhaps we even wonder why the Father has delayed the Lord's second coming and not yet "delivered us from evil".
But that is shortsighted because Christ has already told us He would not return and end this age until the opportunity to come to repentance, hear the Good News, and personally know Christ resounds through every people group throughout the word. Then this age where evil "appears to triumph shall be put to an end and be judged. But before that "many false prophets (those who claim to be anointed that speak for God but really speak for the thief) will arise upon the earth deceiving many and trying to destroy the work of Christ.

“Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The Problem of evil in light of a loving God
Why does the deceit and evil have to go on so long? This question has been asked for millennia. I can only say that God is longsuffering through man's evil ways because evil itself, when we finally see what it is, can bring our hearts to yearning for God's truth, light and life. That does not mean God condones evil. He hates it! All over the earth the fruit of evil is coming to its sickening culmination. But many in its grip will be delivered because seeing evil and even participating in it brings longing for deliverance from it. It can turn us away from pursuing my kingdom come to longing for His kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven. God is the only One I have ever seen that is able to bring good out of evil and He is the only one who has ever said, "I will dry every tear". How He will do this I do not know but I do know and believe that His Word is good and can be trusted. Anyway, Peter encourages us to wait on the Lord for in waiting many will be saved, not saved for this world but for eternity.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

what about those who say God tells them to kill friends or family members, feeling by doing so that it will bring them closer to God.

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
(Matt. 12:33; Luke 6:43–45 )
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

What happens to false prophets, who demonize people casting them out of their families, homes and lands, sometimes even having them thrown into prisons or having killed in the name of God? Well it is important to realize St. Paul did this until he came to the knowledge of Christ and repented. God can even restore terrible sinners and provides opportunity for repentance but for those who continue to blaspheme His Name by such acts they themselves will be cast out.
I Never Knew You

(Luke 6:46; 13:26, 27 )
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Obviously there are some, even many, who believe they are doing the will of God but are in reality following the false prophet that has come to steal, kill and destroy. It is not that hard to distinquish the fruit from God and the fruit of the devil's ways and means.
In Christ, Pat

 

[CrystalDragon]

Yes, Jesus covered that topic in depth and with great clarity. There are two designs at work in this fallen world:

1. one will steal and destroy every gift God has endowed us with. That has been the deceiver's design and intent from the Garden.
2. But God's design is restoration, calling sinners to repentance, and bringing eternal life through His Son, our Lord, Christ Jesus.

The motivations of satan and the motivations of God

Evil holding sway in this world vs the coming kingdom
Sometimes when we see how much evil there is in the world and how it "appears" to be never ending Christians can get restless and perhaps we even wonder why the Father has delayed the Lord's second coming and not yet "delivered us from evil".
But that is shortsighted because Christ has already told us He would not return and end this age until the opportunity to come to repentance, hear the Good News, and personally know Christ resounds through every people group throughout the word. Then this age where evil "appears to triumph shall be put to an end and be judged. But before that "many false prophets (those who claim to be anointed that speak for God but really speak for the thief) will arise upon the earth deceiving many and trying to destroy the work of Christ.

The Problem of evil in light of a loving God
Why does the deceit and evil have to go on so long? This question has been asked for millennia. I can only say that God is longsuffering through man's evil ways because evil itself, when we finally see what it is, can bring our hearts to yearning for God's truth, light and life. That does not mean God condones evil. He hates it! All over the earth the fruit of evil is coming to its sickening culmination. But many in its grip will be delivered because seeing evil and even participating in it brings longing for deliverance from it. It can turn us away from pursuing my kingdom come to longing for His kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven. God is the only One I have ever seen that is able to bring good out of evil and He is the only one who has ever said, "I will dry every tear". How He will do this I do not know but I do know and believe that His Word is good and can be trusted. Anyway, Peter encourages us to wait on the Lord for in waiting many will be saved, not saved for this world but for eternity.

what about those who say God tells them to kill friends or family members, feeling by doing so that it will bring them closer to God.

What happens to false prophets, who demonize people casting them out of their families, homes and lands, sometimes even having them thrown into prisons or having killed in the name of God? Well it is important to realize St. Paul did this until he came to the knowledge of Christ and repented. God can even restore terrible sinners and provides opportunity for repentance but for those who continue to blaspheme His Name by such acts they themselves will be cast out.
I Never Knew You

Obviously there are some, even many, who believe they are doing the will of God but are in reality following the false prophet that has come to steal, kill and destroy. It is not that hard to distinquish the fruit from God and the fruit of the devil's ways and means.
In Christ, Pat

The problem is that all that thankfully nice stuff is in the New Testament. In the Old, God did command to kill and destroy.

Also, Satan was only seen as the deceiver and ruler of all evil, again, in the New Testament. Not so in the Old.

And some don't try to deceive, but really think they are doing God's work even if it's a terrible thing. That's not deceiving others, that's being misguided themselves and others seeing them as having a mental disorder.


And seeing evil may.cause a desire to be delivered from it, but it seems the secular countries are the ones that have less crime and less evil.

 

[John 1720]

Wow! I'm totally surprised at the survey results. The majority said no. Wow!

But how?! (rhetorical question)

I mean God created EVERYTHING! (Please note caps are for emphasis, not yelling, never yell *smile*).

So if 'everything' is God's creation, then evil is also. It's part of 'everything' isn't it?

Glory to God!!!

Evil is not a being or a creation of God it is a free will action vectoring away from the goodness of God.
I believe many of us have responded to this question but to summarize God did not create evil.

The choice to follow God is not evil but ultimately a greater good. Departing from God is how evil manifests among us but it is not a creation of God but rather a state of godlessness. Even Satan was created as a great angel. It was he and his minions that decided to depart from God's ways and pervert themselves. The spirit of satan has managed to entwine himself in the souls of mankind since the garden and his pride and rebellious thoughts against God have been man's feeding trough since the fall. If we look at the Lamentation for the king of Tyre in Ezekiel we can see how the king became one within heart with the angel, who darkened himself by rejecting the light. There are allusions between this king and the prince of the power of the air that can tell us a lot about the devil's history:

Thus says the Lord GOD:
“You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God ....
“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones.
Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
..... You have become a horror, and shall be no more forever.” 

Evil is not an entity, in fact it is void with respect to eternity despite its persistence in our time because of rebellion. It simply is not a creation of God.

“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

God is the ultimate goodness and no evil can be found in Him nor will corruption have any place in His kingdom. If we move away from God and His goodness that is a free choice of our own for God has given us opportunity to move and abide in Him. God does not create evil and just because He provides us with free will to make that choice to abide in Him by His free offer to allow that does not make Him the author of evil. Instead it makes Him the author of greater Good.
Satan thus made himself evil by his own free choice by choosing to depart from God, who alone is good, and attribute to himself by theft the kingdom of this world. Evil is simply a direction away from God and thus goodness. It is not a creation of God but a choice by the creature to remain in Him so He will remain in you or depart from goodness. It is the act of departure itself that is the cause of evil. In essence evil is a vector away from God and away from the light of God's love and goodness. God does not force us to love Him but we love Him because He first loved us.