promises to believers in the Bible that have been proven to be untrue

jenny1972

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Mark 11:24: " Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. "

In John 14:12-14 we find the same thing:
" I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. "

Jesus says, " I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these " yet believers and those who have faith cannot walk on water or do any of the things that Jesus was able to do, so this is a promise that has not come to pass .

And when Jesus says, "ask anything in my name, and I will do it," this also is not true. Jesus does not just say it once. He says the same thing several times ...

In Matthew 7:7: "Ask, and it will be given to you." In Matthew 17:20: "Nothing will be impossible for you." In Matthew 21:21: "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

we can not do the things that Jesus did or greater things , and we cannot receive whatever we ask for in prayer . His deciples could not then and neither can believers today. so i was just wondering what people thought about these promises that have over time proven to be untrue .

Also Jesus told His deciples that "For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:27-28 , suggesting it seems that Gods Kingdom would come in their lifetime (for some of them) , which also did not come to pass.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Mark 11:24: " Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. "

In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14 we find the same thing:
" I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. "

When Jesus says, " I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these " yet believers and those who have faith cannot walk on water or do any of the things that Jesus was able to do, so this is a promise that has not come to pass .

And when Jesus says, "ask anything in my name, and I will do it," this also is not true. Jesus does not just say it once. He says the same thing several times ...

In Matthew 7:7: "Ask, and it will be given to you." In Matthew 17:20: "Nothing will be impossible for you." In Matthew 21:21: "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

we can not do the things that Jesus did or greater things , and we cannot receive whatever we ask for in prayer . His deciples could not then and neither can believers today. so i was just wondering what people thought about this .
This probably needs to be in apologetics, not here....
 
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ViaCrucis

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If these constitute unconditional, universal promises to all believers then I suppose the title argument may be granted.

Though with few exceptions the vast majority of Christians don't view these as unconditional, universal promises to all believers. It requires a rather particular God-as-magic-genie view to think like this, something you'll find in only some Christian churches and movements, but regarded as entirely improper and heterodox in most.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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jenny1972

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If these constitute unconditional, universal promises to all believers then I suppose the title argument may be granted.

Though with few exceptions the vast majority of Christians don't view these as unconditional, universal promises to all believers. It requires a rather particular God-as-magic-genie view to think like this, something you'll find in only some Christian churches and movements, but regarded as entirely improper and heterodox in most.

-CryptoLutheran

Jesus does say that " anyone who has faith in Me " so it seems He was speaking about believers in general . However if he was just talking to his deciples they also could not do the same things , or greater, that Jesus was able to do after He was gone from the earth. ( And if Jesus was only referring to his deciples on THAT occasion do you believe then that whenever He says " anyone " or "whoever" - such as whoever believes in me will have everlasting life - in other instances he is actually just talking about His deciples and not all believers in the future ? ) Also all of His deciples died without seeing Jesus and His kingdom on earth.
 
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paul1149

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we can not do the things that Jesus did or greater things , and we cannot receive whatever we ask for in prayer . His deciples could not then and neither can believers today. so i was just wondering what people thought about these promises that have over time proven to be untrue .

Also Jesus told His deciples that "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:27-28 , suggesting it seems that Gods Kingdom would come in their lifetimes which also did not come to pass.
The greatest hermeneutic rule is to mind your context. When Paul was defending his ministry to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20, he declared that he was innocent of the blood of all men because he had not failed to teach the whole counsel of God.

If you turn to John 15, you find another version of the promise. There Jesus states that we must abide in Him, then we can ask what we wish. The implication is that what we pray for must be acceptable and pleasing to God, and in His will, before we can expect it to be granted. In Romans 12 and 1Thess 5 Paul speaks of the need to test and prove the will of God.

The same in true of the promise in Mark 11. We must be able to continually believe in what we're asking, from a state of living faith. This is not a state of drummed-up emotion, but of spiritual assurance, and is impossible without the aid of Holy Spirit. And He will only give that aid if the above conditions are again true.

And of course there's the need to patiently persevere as the prayer's answer is worked out, often behind the scenes over time.

As for the greater works aspect, there is some question as to what Jesus might have actually meant. One possiblity is suggested by His perspective on the widow who gave only two small coins to the Temple treasury.

Finally, I think it's pretty clear that the quote from Mt 16 is a lead-in to the Transfiguration event that immediately follows.

I have no doubt that the promises you mention are true. ~All the promises of God in Christ are Yes; they just await our Amen.~ The challenge is to understand them correctly, and then to pursue them in the way that will bring about their fulfillment - and that often involves our own transformation and growth. There are a lot of miracles taking place around the world, and they are increasing, as the Spirit is poured out on the earth. This should be an encouragement to us to take the Lord at His word and pursue His best.
 
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civilwarbuff

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However if he was just talking to his deciples they also could not do the same things , or greater, that Jesus was able to do after He was gone from the earth.
Act 3:1 One afternoon, Peter and John were on their way to the Temple for the three o'clock prayer time.
Act 3:2 Now a man who had been crippled from birth was being carried in. Every day people would lay him at what was called the Beautiful Gate so that he could beg from those who were going into the Temple.
Act 3:3 When he saw that Peter and John were about to go into the Temple, he asked them to give him something.
Act 3:4 Peter, along with John, looked him straight in the eye and said, "Look at us!"
Act 3:5 So the man watched them closely, expecting to get something from them.
Act 3:6 However, Peter said, "I don't have any silver or gold, but I'll give you what I do have. In the name of Jesus the Messiah from Nazareth, walk!"
Act 3:7 Then Peter took hold of his right hand and began to help him up. Immediately his feet and ankles became strong,
Act 3:8 and he sprang to his feet, stood up, and began to walk. Then he went with them into the Temple, walking, jumping, and praising God.
They healed the sick just as Jesus did.
And they also did not get everything they asked for in Jesus name ,
What, specifically, did they ask for that they did not get?
and also all of them died without seeing Jesus and His kingdom on earth.
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom belonged to this world, my servants would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But for now my kingdom is not from here."
kingdom on earth.
His kingdom on earth is still to come....
 
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jenny1972

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If you turn to John 15, you find another version of the promise. There Jesus states that we must abide in Him, then we can ask what we wish. The implication is that what we pray for must be acceptable and pleasing to God, and in His will, before we can expect it to be granted.

i looked up the word " abide " and it simply means 'to continue to be in a place for a significant amount of time' , in other words 'continue to believe (or 'be in') Jesus for a significant amount of time if so then If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Jesus said " ask whatever ye will and it shall be done unto you " the chapter did not go onto say that that it depended upon Gods will or be pleasing to God .
 
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paul1149

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I would suggest you ask Holy Spirit for the fullness of what He means by "abide", rather than reduce it to a dictionary definition. You might be losing something in the process.
 
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jenny1972

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Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom belonged to this world, my servants would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But for now my kingdom is not from here."
His kingdom on earth is still to come....

yes but Jesus told his deciples "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:27-28 , however all of His deciples died without seeing His kingdom on earth.
 
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civilwarbuff

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yes but Jesus told his deciples "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
They did see Him coming in His Kingdom....of Heaven when He was taken up in the cloud.
Act 1:9 After saying this, Jesus was taken up while those who had gathered together were watching, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 While he was going and they were gazing up toward heaven, two men in white robes stood right beside them.
Act 1:11 They asked, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This same Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you saw him go up into heaven."
Mat 16:27 The Son of Man is going to come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to what he has done.....This refers to the end times...the Kingdom on Heaven on Earth that will be established.
however all of His deciples died without seeing His kingdom on earth.
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom belonged to this world, my servants would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But for now my kingdom is not from here." He is speaking of the fact that his is the Kingdom of Heaven, not of Earth. But His Kingdom of Earth will/is to come, it is still in the future.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Jesus does say that " anyone who has faith in Me " so it seems He was speaking about believers in general . However if he was just talking to his deciples they also could not do the same things , or greater, that Jesus was able to do after He was gone from the earth. And they also did not get everything they asked for in Jesus name , and also all of them died without seeing Jesus and His kingdom on earth.

I'd say the spread of the Gospel from all the way from Jerusalem to Rome isn't a small feat. Collectively more has been done through the Church than the miraculous works of Christ in His early ministry. So saying they didn't I think would be wrong. Further, I'd point out again that the God-as-genie is wrong, "Whatever you ask for in My name" isn't about granting wishes or using Jesus' name as magick.

As to the last, I know many interpret Jesus' statement about coming into His kingdom refers to the Parousia, but that's not necessarily how it should be read. The Son of Man came into His kingdom when He ascended and took His seat at the right hand of the Father, I'd say this is more clear in the language Jesus uses in the Olivet Discourse,

"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see ‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." - Matthew 24:30-31

Jesus is taking this language directly from Daniel,

"As I watched in the night visions,

I saw one like a son of man
coming with the clouds of heaven.
And he came to the Ancient One
and was presented before him.
To him was given dominion
and glory and kingship,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
that shall not pass away,
and his kingship is one
that shall never be destroyed.
" - Daniel 7:13-14

When Christ ascended He took His seat at the right hand of God, and has been given all power, authority, and dominion.

Only Premillennialists believe that Christ's kingdom is solely a future earthly thing, most Christians historically and today are Amillennialists. We believe that the kingdom has been with us since the beginning, not as a place, but as the reality of God's royal power and authority in Christ exercised through the Church. The Messiah sits on His throne as the Son of David, and He must reign (says St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15) until He puts all enemies under His feet, the last enemy being death, then comes the end when He hands all things over to the Father and God shall be all in all.

Christ reigns as King and Lord right now, when He comes the fullness of the kingdom comes with Him, not as a temporal or earthly government, but as the eternal reign of God having transformed all things, or as we confess in the Nicene Creed "His kingdom shall have no end".

-CryptoLuthearn
 
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jenny1972

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They did see Him coming in His Kingdom....of Heaven when He was taken up in the cloud.
Act 1:9 After saying this, Jesus was taken up while those who had gathered together were watching, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 While he was going and they were gazing up toward heaven, two men in white robes stood right beside them.
Act 1:11 They asked, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This same Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you saw him go up into heaven."
Mat 16:27 The Son of Man is going to come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to what he has done.....This refers to the end times...the Kingdom on Heaven on Earth that will be established.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom belonged to this world, my servants would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But for now my kingdom is not from here." He is speaking of the fact that his is the Kingdom of Heaven, not of Earth. But His Kingdom of Earth will/is to come, it is still in the future.

that would be them seeing Him going TO His kingdom , not seeing Him and His kingdom come . "going" is leaving "coming" is arriving . ALL , not some , of His deciples saw Him going to His kingdom in Heaven long before any of them saw death.

Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:27-28
 
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civilwarbuff

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that would be them seeing Him going TO His kingdom , not seeing Him and His kingdom come . "going" is leaving "coming" is arriving .
Last try....He is coming into His Kingdom of Heaven....just because we are not there (in the 3rd Heaven which is where His present Kingdom exists) does not mean He is not coming into the Kingdom of Heaven. He is coming into the Kingdom of Heaven as the Savior. An analogy....you visit me then you leave....now I may say you are going home but everyone at your place says you are coming home...see the perspective? And if you are talking to people (read The Father) at your home (heaven) then you are coming home...arriving into your Kingdom.
 
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jenny1972

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Only Premillennialists believe that Christ's kingdom is solely a future earthly thing, most Christians historically and today are Amillennialists. We believe that the kingdom has been with us since the beginning, not as a place, but as the reality of God's royal power and authority in Christ exercised through the Church.
-CryptoLuthearn

but if the Kingdom has been with us since the beginning why did Jesus say that only some of His deciples would see Him coming with His kingdom before their death , if the kingdom was always here on earth ALL of His deciples would see it before their death not just some.

Jesus also indicates that this "coming with His kingdom" will be a time of Judgement a time of " repaying each person according to what he has done " : “For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom”.

to me this seems to indicate that Jesus was referring to Judgement Day and that it would happen before all of them would die.
 
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Maramoo

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Mark 11:24: " Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. "

You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. "

"ask anything in my name, and I will do it,"

In Matthew 7:7: "Ask, and it will be given to you." In Matthew 17:20: "Nothing will be impossible for you." In Matthew 21:21: "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

I know that all these statements are all absolutely true. Most Christians aren't aware because they only study their own religion, that this is also spoken of in almost all other ancient texts as well: Buddhism, the Baghvad Gita, Koran, the Tao, the Gnostic Gospels, the Kabbalah, this message is always the same. The thing is, you do get what you ask for, all the time, without exception. The problem is most people aren't aware of what they are actually asking for. It's extremely simple, it's not what you consciously or vocally ask for, it's what you react to or give feeling to, what you love or pay attention to the most, that's really what you want and then that's what you get. It's a simple law of nature which many teachers have tried to get across, but it's always lost in the human translation. It really does work and it's very, very simple.

Example: Do you wish or pray for peace in your life? Then someone comes along with gossip and you actually enjoy it? What are you saying you like most? Peace or conflict, pettiness and lies? More of that will come to you no matter what you ask with your lips.
Example: Do you want good health, freedom and no pain or suffering in your life and in the lives of those you love and pray for that? But you love to eat steak or chicken with no thought about the suffering of the animals, you just enjoy it? What are you saying, you are saying that you enjoy suffering and pain and confinement.
Example: Do you pray for an end to violence, but love watching violent tv shows and actually get an emotional response from it? Guess what you will get more of?
Example: Do you really want to get that new job where you could earn lots of money, but put off sending in the resume because you want to play a game or watch tv or a movie, What are asking for: more time to do what you enjoy. You won't get that job because you'll have less time to do what you love.
Example: Do you want to have a great relationship with your husband/wife, but you love it when you have 'alone' time doing the things you want to do, then you will draw further apart, not closer because that's what you projected.
Example: Do you wish you could live somewhere beautiful surrounded by nature (God's creation)? Yet you love your man made things and care about them more? Technology, gadgets, games, electronics. Then you are saying you are happier surrounded by man made things.

I have many, many real life examples of just how this works. If anyone is interested in learning more, I would be happy to talk to you, just message me. Most will just scoff and call it mumbo jumbo but that's fine, if you are ready to hear it you will! I guess it isn't easy at first because it takes some real thought and it's completely different to the mainstream (world) point of view of things, yet it is written, even in your own bible. I have been studying religions for years, and there are many places it is found, but here are a couple of quotes from your own bible which also teach part of what this is all about.

Do Not Love the World
15Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.… Yet most of you do: fashion, jewellery, makeup, objects like cars, houses, media, tv, celebrities etc.. etc.. etc..These things are actually of the world.

The Narrow Gate
13"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it" Organized religion and conventional thought is most certainly not the narrow gate, 84% of the world population has a faith or religion, one third are christian. I would say that was rather wide. Think about it.

Matthew 12:33
"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. How is your fruit: your life?
 
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Hospes

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Mark 11:24: " Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. "

In John 14:12-14 we find the same thing:
" I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. "

Jesus says, " I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these " yet believers and those who have faith cannot walk on water or do any of the things that Jesus was able to do, so this is a promise that has not come to pass .

And when Jesus says, "ask anything in my name, and I will do it," this also is not true. Jesus does not just say it once. He says the same thing several times ...

In Matthew 7:7: "Ask, and it will be given to you." In Matthew 17:20: "Nothing will be impossible for you." In Matthew 21:21: "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

we can not do the things that Jesus did or greater things , and we cannot receive whatever we ask for in prayer . His deciples could not then and neither can believers today. so i was just wondering what people thought about these promises that have over time proven to be untrue .

Also Jesus told His deciples that "For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matthew 16:27-28 , suggesting it seems that Gods Kingdom would come in their lifetime (for some of them) , which also did not come to pass.
Hi Jenny.

Is there any possibility you don't know that these type of criticisms have been addressed many times before? It's not as if you're bringing up new stuff that has never been thoroughly discussed by thoughtful and honest people and reasonable answers given to each. If you do think you are on to something novel, I'd suggest you look at the notes of a good study Bible and see what they have to say. (NIV and ESV study bibles are good.)

If you haven't engaged in studying the explanations provided over the last couple of millennia, then you make a pretty bold statement about things "proven" to be untrue with minimum serious thought to support it.

If you have studied and found the answers unpersuasive, then why not engage the reasons you think they are unpersuasive? That's typically the best way to reason with people who disagree with you. Of course, I am assuming you want to reason with people, which very well could be a mistake on my part.
 
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ViaCrucis

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but if the Kingdom has been with us since the beginning why did Jesus say that only some of His deciples would see Him coming with His kingdom before their death , if the kingdom was always here on earth ALL of His deciples would see it before their death not just some.

Jesus also indicates that this "coming with His kingdom" will be a time of Judgement a time of " repaying each person according to what he has done " : “For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom”.

to me this seems to indicate that Jesus was referring to Judgement Day and that it would happen before all of them would die.

Well, just to nitpick about the some/all distinction, I mean not all did see it as there was Judas Iscariot who betrayed him. Though I think a better argument would be made that it's not necessary to be so scrutinizing with woodenness of words. Some simply means there would be those there that see this thing come to pass, the exact amount seems inconsequential. Unless one subscribes to a particular inerrantist type of view where the natural fluidity of language can't be permitted--I don't subscribe to that sort of view. I think it misses the forest for the trees.

I think there's also a valid point to be talking about the nature of judgment as more than just the Final Judgment. The death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ is a judgment. I might point to St. Paul in Romans ch. 1 where he speaks of God's judgment being revealed from heaven against the general wickedness of the world. In 1 Corinthians 14 the Apostle speaks of glossolalia as a sign for the unbelieving and refers to the prophet Isaiah who speaks of those of foreign tongues; glossolalia as a sign meaning a sign of judgment against those who do not believe.

Judgment is a broad concept, there is certainly a Final Judgment but judgment is an already thing as much as it is a yet to come thing; judgment isn't about a balancing scale between our good works and our bad works, but is about what is revealed about the condition of things as they are, and the reality of that is that this present age is corrupt, fallen, and is not going to last; the present order of things ruled as they are by violence, death, and suffering shall cease to be and in this present there exists the tension between the now and not yet. The kingdom is now and not yet. The judgment against this age is now and not yet. Salvation is now and not yet. Etc.

-CrytoLutheran
 
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