"Pro-Choice" or "Pro-Life"

[EnemyPartyII]

Hmmm. Guess I was wrong. Looks like I'm NOT going to get a direct answer to my perfectly reasonable question.

Oh well, thats OK. After all, ignoring unimpeachable evidence is exactly the same as making it disapear so it never existed int he first place. Talmud? WHAT Talmud?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

You ignored the important part of my post.

I answered your question, now you answer mine.

"Now, do you acknowledge that the Bible and the Talmudic tradition say that the BABY or whatever you want to call it, isn't actually considered a PERSON until after its born? "

But to show I'm a good sport, while you try to figure out a way to tapdance around giving the honest, accurate answer, I'll answer your question.

I use the term "foetus" because I like to be accurate. Foetus is a developmental stage. Its not a dirty word, so i don't see what your problem with it is.

Just as a little reminder, in case someone's computer froze up before his response came through.

 

[Phinehas2]

To EnemyPartyII

Then if that was "you", rather than merely something with the POTENTIAL to BECOME you... why don't you remember it?

You didn’t address my question how weren’t you that at one stage?
As to your question because its irrelevant, it’s a fact whether I can remember it or not.

It says that the value of the foetus/life/baby whatever you want to call it is NOT equivalent to that of a person.

OF COURSE IT IS AS I WAS ONE ONCE.

As we see God sees life in the womb and so do I. As a matter of interest so does the Roman Catholic church.

 

[Archivist]

Its actually not a mother its a murderer.

I know that I'm getting into this discussion a bit late, but I can't let this pass as I really get tired seeing people say that abortion is murder.

Murder is a leagl term, not a Biblical term. It has specific requirements. Abortion does not meet those requirements.

Lord Coke, the Father of the Common Law, defined murder using these words: "Murder is when a man of sound memoryand of the age of discretion, unlawfully killeth within any county of the realm any reasonable creature in rerum natura under the King's peace, with malice aforthought , either expressed by the party or implied by law, so as the party die of the wound or hurt within a year and a day of the same."

That definition largely remains with us today. Murder is defined in Wikipedia as "the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (or malice aforethought)." Today most jurisdictions divide murder into various degrees.

Abortion is not murder in the US because it is legal under US law and is therefore not an "unlawful killing."

 

[EnemyPartyII]

To EnemyPartyII

You didn’t address my question how weren’t you that at one stage?

No. "I" wasn't. "I" didn't exist until much later.

OF COURSE IT IS AS I WAS ONE ONCE.

Hmmm. Yet Exodus disagrees with you, otherwise, why isn't causing a miscarriage considered equivalent to causing the death of a person?

As we see God sees life in the womb and so do I.

So the OT and the Talmud is wrong then?

 

[Phinehas2]

To Archivist,

I know that I'm getting into this discussion a bit late, but I can't let this pass as I really get tired seeing people say that abortion is murder.

the truth hurts?

Murder is a leagl term, not a Biblical term. It has specific requirements. Abortion does not meet those requirements.

Yes I would agree murder is a legal term, and we have seen that it is a Biblical term as well.
Pro-choice abortion is premeditated murder.

Abortion is not murder in the US because it is legal under US law and is therefore not an "unlawful killing."

Then God help America. However it is murder according to God’s word, and I fear God more than man.

 

[lux et lex]

No. "I" wasn't. "I" didn't exist until much later.[/font][/color]

Hmmm. Yet Exodus disagrees with you, otherwise, why isn't causing a miscarriage considered equivalent to causing the death of a person?

So the OT and the Talmud is wrong then?

Don't you know that anything that doesn't agree with the "Pro Life" doctrine is discounted in the Bible?

I used to be on the fence about abortion (a long time ago). It was the Exodus chapter that convinced me that personhood does not begin until the first breath is drawn. (and it is very interesting to me that people on this forum believe the fetus breathes in the womb. If you are one of these people, read about the function and purpose of an umbilical cord)

 

[Phinehas2]

To EnemyPartyII

No. "I" wasn't. "I" didn't exist until much later.

Who was it then that was the foetus?
But as far as I am concerned and many like me we were all people at the foetus stage, so all life at that stage.

Hmmm. Yet Exodus disagrees with you, otherwise, why isn't causing a miscarriage considered equivalent to causing the death of a person?

Well in Adam we all die and in Christ we all live, the Exodus 21 passage says "But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life" God has shown His love and life for His creation, not the death in sin of the law.

So the OT and the Talmud is wrong then?

So the NT is worng for you then and the OT right? Do you follow all the OT law or not?

 

[Phinehas2]

To Lux and lex,

I used to be on the fence about abortion (a long time ago). It was the Exodus chapter that convinced me that personhood does not begin until the first breath is drawn. (and it is very interesting to me that people on this forum believe the fetus breathes in the womb. If you are one of these people, read about the function and purpose of an umbilical cord)

You say you think personhood begins at first breath because of the Exodus passage, but you don’t think it isnt because of the NT passage that the baby in the womb? Are you more inclined to the Torah and Jewish law? Do you follow the other OT laws?
What about
Genesis 25:24 “When the time came for her to give birth, there were twin boys in her womb.”
Deuteronomy 28:4 “The fruit of your womb will be blessed”
Job 31:15 “Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?”

No, I think you must have been looking specifically for something to justify what you want to see.

 

[lux et lex]

Genesis 25:24 “When the time came for her to give birth, there were twin boys in her womb.”
Deuteronomy 28:4 “The fruit of your womb will be blessed”
Job 31:15 “Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?”

What about them?

Genesis: yeah I think when you're giving birth you'd figure out there were twin boys rather quickly. Not sure how this helps you.

Deut.: You can certainly bless non-sentient things. I had a roommate who blessed our dorm room. Still, not seeing your point.

Job: Not contesting where we came from. Through the gestational process we are all made in the womb and then through birth we become people. What are you trying to prove?

 

[Phinehas2]

To Lux and lex,

What about them?

If they don’t mean anything to you why did Exodus apart from something you could use to justify what you want?

Genesis: yeah I think when you're giving birth you'd figure out there were twin boys rather quickly. Not sure how this helps you.

Why not, don’t you believe what it says? If there were two boys in the womb then boys can be in the womb so boys don’t begin when they take their first breath. You believed what Exodus said but don’t when it comes to these passages because you are leaning on your own understanding.

Job: Not contesting where we came from. Through the gestational process we are all made in the womb and then through birth we become people. What are you trying to prove?

You are contesting it as it says we are made in the womb. Are boys not people. What are you trying to prove, that God’s word isn’t His word or God isn’t right?

So where in the Bible does it say the mother can choose.

 

[Archivist]

the truth hurts?

I'm the one offering facts here; the truth is on my side.

Yes I would agree murder is a legal term.

Thank you for agreeing.

And we have seen that it is a Biblical term as well.

No, it isn't. While some translations of Scripture have used the word murder, it isn't a correct usage. The Bible does not require that a killing be intentional, the factor that is called "malice aforethought" under the definition of murder. If you have read the Old Testament you are aware that a person could be put to death for an accidential killing unless he escaped to a City of Refuge.

Pro-choice abortion is premeditated murder.

No, it isn't. If you have facts to support this please offer them.

Then God help America. However it is murder according to God’s word, and I fear God more than man.

No, it isn't murder according to God's word, because the crime of murder didn't exist in Biblical times. The term used in the Ten Commandments actually refers more to what we would now call manslaughter than to murder. You can perhaps argue that abortion is killing, but not murder. If you have facts (as opposed to opinion) to support your position please offer them.

 

[lux et lex]

To Lux and lex,
If they don’t mean anything to you why did Exodus apart from something you could use to justify what you want?

Why not, don’t you believe what it says? If there were two boys in the womb then boys can be in the womb so boys don’t begin when they take their first breath. You believed what Exodus said but don’t when it comes to these passages because you are leaning on your own understanding.

You are contesting it as it says we are made in the womb. Are boys not people. What are you trying to prove, that God’s word isn’t His word or God isn’t right?

Wow you're really grasping at straws here. Gender is determined in the womb. But just because you're a male fetus doesn't mean that you're a person. PERSONHOOD OCCURS WHEN YOU ARE BORN. No you don't magically gain "parts" when you are born. You were male before then. But you were not a person. I'm leaning on my God Given common sense here. Maybe you should too.

As to where it says a mother is allow to choose? It doesn't. I'm not trying to argue that it does. But, abortion has been around for thousands of years, and surely it would have been something that happened in Biblical times. The Bible addresses a lot of things, and I am fairly certain if it was a big issue it would be explicitly stated.

 

[Julina]

it seems like pro-lifers wish to give more rights to the unborn than to those who are already living.
for example, they care more about aborted feti than, say, victims of child abuse.

 

[lux et lex]

it seems like pro-lifers wish to give more rights to the unborn than to those who are already living.
for example, they care more about aborted feti than, say, victims of child abuse.

That's exactly it. Get the woman to carry to term and have a baby and then move on to your next "potential life" forgetting about the baby that was just born.

 

[Phinehas2]

To archivist.

I'm the one offering facts here; the truth is on my side.

well no you aren’t, there is no life that develops apart from conception and gestation, unless you can say what you don’t have a grasp of the reality.

Thank you for agreeing.

I can’t really disagree, all can see laws which address it and define it, the agreement is acknowledging the reality of the statement.

No, it isn't. While some translations of Scripture have used the word murder, it isn't a correct usage.

Really are you some expert in Greek and Hebrew? Of course it says murder. If you are saying otherwise show me which translations don’t.

The Bible does not require that a killing be intentional, the factor that is called "malice aforethought" under the definition of murder.

The Bible says do not murder in several places, that is the point.

No, it isn't. If you have facts to support this please offer them.

Yes it is, what is your definition of choice then?

No, it isn't murder according to God's word, because the crime of murder didn't exist in Biblical times.

of course it is because its says it is.

Pro-choice abortion is of course under your definition pre-meditated murder.

 

[Zeena]

Then if that was "you", rather than merely something with the POTENTIAL to BECOME you... why don't you remember it?

Why don't you recall your first birthday?
It was your birthday, wasn't it?

 

[Phinehas2]

To lux et lex,

Wow you're really grasping at straws here.

So your answer tro my question is which, two boys are or aren’t people?

Gender is determined in the womb. But just because you're a male fetus doesn't mean that you're a person.

except that it does, so what is your point?

PERSONHOOD OCCURS WHEN YOU ARE BORN.

NO IT DOESN’T.
The person’s life starts at conception and gestation from where it develops through its life. I was a person at the foetus stage of my life, the Bible says God knows ud in the womb. Already one poster has said they were not themselves when they were a foetus which is ridiculous as the foetus would only ever develop into who they are now. For the foetus not to be a person one could not determine who the foetus will eventually be. Without the foetus the person will not develop.

No you don't magically gain "parts" when you are born.

I never said you did, the question was is a boy a person. Yes or no. If a boy is a person then the Bible says the boy, who is a person, was in the womb so life doesn’t begin at birth.

I'm leaning on my God Given common sense here. Maybe you should too.

I didn’t say common sense either, I am leaning on my own common sense and its in line with reality and the Bible, as to ones own common sense as opposed to God’s word the Bible says trust God’s word.

As to where it says a mother is allow to choose? It doesn't. I'm not trying to argue that it does.

Ok but that’s what pro-choice is and what I am arguing against.

But, abortion has been around for thousands of years, and surely it would have been something that happened in Biblical times.

I don’t think that has been disputed.

The Bible addresses a lot of things, and I am fairly certain if it was a big issue it would be explicitly stated.

That means nothing.

 

[Zeena]

*snip*
Oh well, thats OK. After all, ignoring unimpeachable evidence is exactly the same as making it disapear so it never existed int he first place. Talmud? WHAT Talmud?

"The Talmud teaches that Jesus Christ was illegitimate and was conceived during menstruation; that he had the soul of Esau; that he was a fool, a conjurer, a seducer; that he was crucified, buried in hell and set up as an idol ever since by his followers."

Talmud Unmasked Part One

 

[Zeena]

No. "I" wasn't. "I" didn't exist until much later. Later?

As in, able to recall your past?

What about adults incapable of recalling their past, are they not people too?