Priest having a lay profession.... Hmmm

[Philothei]

Lets keep the bashing of specific parishes off the table here. I can tell horror story upon horror story about a parish or two, but in the end that does no good for the Body of Christ.

I agree that we can go on and on for ever about what this parish does or that one... And the same goes for the priests and I think in lieu of our Fast coming up it would be wise to show charity for each other I agree Michael

 

[Philothei]

That's a very frightening reality I wasn't aware of until Philothei's earlier post. That gives a State considerable potential power over the Church that could be used subtly and even unintentionally.

Interestingly enough the state has no say in the Chruch matters. Occasionally the State leaders have tried to inpose opinions into the Church leaders such as some metropolitans of even the Archbishop of Greece. But as the Chruch is synodical and the majority of the Mertropolitans are indeed inspired men of the cloth we have been blessed with very few instances of such conflicts. The last debate between state and the church has been the Church's property. It still stands and many have expressed the opinion of "capitalizing" them (taking them over from the Church). But in second look (and this issue is vast) the state is kind of changing their mind as the Church proposed to withdrow all charitable offering to the poor and to the commonwealth. Lots of state programs are indeed "offered" by the Church. The Church runs them extending itself to help out the poor with soup kithens, old folks homes etc. We are talking about millions of Euros spend... So the social work of the Church is well worth it to be able to safeguard its own property...Actually now with this financial difficulty Greece is under the Church will even play a bigger role in aiding the less fortunate. Also the property under the Church is safeguraded from being traded off to foreigners As most Greeks are forced to sell their land to foreigners for liquidification for the economic pressure is so tremendous...But sorry to ramble on this ... Ah... the priests... and lay professsion

Well if the state cannot support them any more the Church will become like the US where the priests would have to be sustained by the people or by working also another profession. And although here in the US it is easy ...A priest will have a difficult time to be hired .. .in any job in Greece as his also atire would be a stumbling stone... The only job I can see a priest doing in Greece is that of the teacher which is again a Government job a civil servant...

 

[Michael G]

I agree that we can go on and on for ever about what this parish does or that one... And the same goes for the priests and I think in lieu of our Fast coming up it would be wise to show charity for each other I agree Michael

I am learning it is better and far more constructive to praise and focus on the good priests and bishops than to waste any ammount of thought on the bad ones.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Sorry that I said anything. Forgive me.

 

[Joshua G.]

Interestingly enough the state has no say in the Chruch matters.

officially, of course not.

Occasionally the State leaders have tried to inpose opinions into the Church leaders such as some metropolitans of even the Archbishop of Greece. But as the Chruch is synodical and the majority of the Mertropolitans are indeed inspired men of the cloth we have been blessed with very few instances of such conflicts.

good, I suppose. But how much better to not have to deal with the state at all. As it stands the Church HAS to be political so funding doesn't get cut off. Their are getting their milk from a mother they should never ytrst... the government"

The last debate between state and the church has been the Church's property. It still stands and many have expressed the opinion of "capitalizing" them (taking them over from the Church).

And we let out a big sigh of relief. But this goes to show that important factions in ANY government except MAYBE a theocracy-- if that can even exist-- are against the Church. Why would I want them holding my paycheck over my head?

But in second look (and this issue is vast) the state is kind of changing their mind as the Church proposed to withdrow all charitable offering to the poor and to the commonwealth.

That's a tactic similar to what my union has to do in negotiations. They try to take a way pay or benefits, we say "fine. you don't appreciate us, we are only doing exactly what our contract says and see how the parents complain". A dirty tactic.. but one that works. This is also a dirty tactic. In fact, it isn't the Church spiritual right to let charity suffer to make a point. But, I feel for these people for they have been given a HUGE crutch by the State and it forces them to either act like a union (not a good thing at all) and apply tactics such as these from time to time or go through what would be a very painful transition from depending on state to depending on the flock. It is such a wonderful blessing in the States and I imagine Canada among others to be able to thumb our noses at the State. The most they could do to us, short of tearing up tyhe Constitution, is MAYBE challenge our tax exempt status, but that is their originally to enforce the foundational concept of separation of Church and State (i.e. the State cannot profit from Church activities).

Look, Im not Greek so I would never want to dictate what they must do their, but I fail see how this is a healthy relationship for the Church. Good in the short run, I suppose and because of that I don't pretend that moving toward a more biblical model where caesar wasn't involved would easy. It would be revolutionary and revolution, even good revolution, is always painful.
In an odd way, this is a very socialist mentality. "Don't worry, mama will take care of all of your needs... Even spiritual!"

 

[Joshua G.]

By the way Philothei, I am not trying insight or say that you're wrongt o point out the nuances of what's happening there. I am only clarifying why, exactly, this set up concerns me so greatly and why I think spearation of Church and State is a godsent (truly) for the Church. We have to be veeeerrry careful not to cip at that wall too much because while we have eternal good to offer our government, they have nothing of eternal value to offer the Church. Nothing.

 

[Joshua G.]

Lots of state programs are indeed "offered" by the Church. The Church runs them extending itself to help out the poor with soup kithens, old folks homes etc. We are talking about millions of Euros spend... So the social work of the Church is well worth it to be able to safeguard its own property...Actually now with this financial difficulty Greece is under the Church will even play a bigger role in aiding the less fortunate. Also the property under the Church is safeguraded from being traded off to foreigners

As most Greeks are forced to sell their land to foreigners for liquidification for the economic pressure is so tremendous...But sorry to ramble on this ... Ah... the priests... and lay professsion

Well if the state cannot support them any more the Church will become like the US where the priests would have to be sustained by the people or by working also another profession. And although here in the US it is easy ...A priest will have a difficult time to be hired .. .in any job in Greece as his also atire would be a stumbling stone... The only job I can see a priest doing in Greece is that of the teacher which is again a Government job a civil servant...

By the way, this is a very valid point. But what *I* believe to be good about this is that it allows for the true symptoms of our sickness to show.

Apart from mission parishes with only a handful of families, as Khaelas said, if people gave what they should biblical or what they are able (if they can't do 10%) priests would not HAVE to work a 2nd job. I am not saying their children wouldn't have to wear hand me downs or that they wouldn't be a one-car family with a tight budget, especially in these times! But they would have what they need and in many cases would have an overabundance.

But their are some parishes where the families simply cannot afford to fully (or at all) subsidize the preist and his family, so he has to work. Nothing ideal about that. And he will probably need to remove his cassock (w the bishop's blessing) at most of those jobs. But are we to assume that God is offended by a man laboring while giving f his time and ouncil to a devout flock who are poor simply becaue he wasn't wearing his cassock? Certainly not! Arewe to assumme he is offended that we have cultured generations that do not believe the Church should be a significant (and even the first) line in the budget? I think we can very safely assume that. So, in this case, I think God is offende hen some priests have to work not at the priet but at the families who have jobs and necessities eat out once a week and scrounge for a vacation once a year but only feel they need to give what amounts to an afterthought of what is left (the $20 in my pocket this week).

Don't get me wrong, there are people for whom 10% is $0 or $5. It's the thought and sacrifice that counts.

A state funded Church doesn't make the sickness of stinginess as apparent. Stingineess is here just as much as there, no doubt. But it should be made apparent so people can realize the cosequence of their greed. A holy admonishment.

To be surem they do give in Greece through their taxes, but it is so depersonalized.

Question: is it like in Spain where you choose to give through the State to the Church (or maybe it's that you choose NOT to give??) as a part of income taxes or is it just an automatic part of he yearly budget where everyone inadvertently/indirectly gives regardless of their personal religion?

 

[Philothei]

By the way, this is a very valid point. But what *I* believe to be good about this is that it allows for the true symptoms of our sickness to show.

Apart from mission parishes with only a handful of families, as Khaelas said, if people gave what they should biblical or what they are able (if they can't do 10%) priests would not HAVE to work a 2nd job. I am not saying their children wouldn't have to wear hand me downs or that they wouldn't be a one-car family with a tight budget, especially in these times! But they would have what they need and in many cases would have an overabundance.

But their are some parishes where the families simply cannot afford to fully (or at all) subsidize the preist and his family, so he has to work. Nothing ideal about that. And he will probably need to remove his cassock (w the bishop's blessing) at most of those jobs. But are we to assume that God is offended by a man laboring while giving f his time and ouncil to a devout flock who are poor simply becaue he wasn't wearing his cassock? Certainly not! Arewe to assumme he is offended that we have cultured generations that do not believe the Church should be a significant (and even the first) line in the budget? I think we can very safely assume that. So, in this case, I think God is offende hen some priests have to work not at the priet but at the families who have jobs and necessities eat out once a week and scrounge for a vacation once a year but only feel they need to give what amounts to an afterthought of what is left (the $20 in my pocket this week).

Don't get me wrong, there are people for whom 10% is $0 or $5. It's the thought and sacrifice that counts.

A state funded Church doesn't make the sickness of stinginess as apparent. Stingineess is here just as much as there, no doubt. But it should be made apparent so people can realize the cosequence of their greed. A holy admonishment.

To be surem they do give in Greece through their taxes, but it is so depersonalized.

Question: is it like in Spain where you choose to give through the State to the Church (or maybe it's that you choose NOT to give??) as a part of income taxes or is it just an automatic part of he yearly budget where everyone inadvertently/indirectly gives regardless of their personal religion?

No people in Greece give directly to the church. The Church does not pay the priest's salary they are civil servants. One is isolated of the other. Let me put it to you this way If I give 1 Euro a day to light up a candle and 5 Euros every Sunday... I give a substantial amount. Also 98% of Greeks are EO so they are bound to light up a candle every day (most) passing an open Church. So donations comes easy when you pass by the Church ....and it hits you right there that you must "remember" of the less fortunate. In the US it is harder as "out of mind out of sight"...and giving a check every week of 50 dollars is more of a dent... in ones' finances if you can spread that evenly during the week.

My mother in Greece almost everyday she lits up a candle at her home parish in St. Paraskeve and she says a prayer for us; I find that so much more rewarding spiritually and as a praxis. I wish I could have such access to my home parish... I think if I was to drop by everyday and light up a candle the priest would think that there is something really wrong with me ...

The monies that are collected for the candle go to the Archdiocese in Greece and the money collected by the Philoptochos go to the charity. The monies for the Archdiocese pay all the bills for the churches around Athens / local Metropolises plus they also go to charities (what is left or get reinvested). We have also soup kitchens and old folks homes and youth dormintories that the Chruch supports
"ΑΛΛΗΛΕΓΓΥΗ" Μ.Κ.Ο. ΤΗΣ ΕΚΚΛΗΣΙΑΣ ΤΗΣ ΕΛΛΑΔΟΣ - Αρχική

It is called Solidarity and it reaches beyond Greece. It aids all kind of causes all over the globe.. Hmmm I do no think it has an English link but maybe it does...

 

[Philothei]

officially, of course not.

good, I suppose. But how much better to not have to deal with the state at all. As it stands the Church HAS to be political so funding doesn't get cut off. Their are getting their milk from a mother they should never ytrst... the government"

That was never the case.. The State DOES not treat the Chruch that way... If you do not beleive ask other Greeks on this

And we let out a big sigh of relief. But this goes to show that important factions in ANY government except MAYBE a theocracy-- if that can even exist-- are against the Church. Why would I want them holding my paycheck over my head? That's a tactic similar to what my union has to do in negotiations. They try to take a way pay or benefits, we say "fine. you don't appreciate us, we are only doing exactly what our contract says and see how the parents complain". A dirty tactic.. but one that works.

Nothing "dirty" about this either if the Chruch will be forced to pay the priests salaries they will withhold the monies for their priets...They will have to. How is this dirty?

This is also a dirty tactic. In fact, it isn't the Church spiritual right to let charity suffer to make a point. But, I feel for these people for they have been given a HUGE crutch by the State and it forces them to either act like a union (not a good thing at all) and apply tactics such as these from time to time or go through what would be a very painful transition from depending on state to depending on the flock. It is such a wonderful blessing in the States and I imagine Canada among others to be able to thumb our noses at the State. The most they could do to us, short of tearing up tyhe Constitution, is MAYBE challenge our tax exempt status, but that is their originally to enforce the foundational concept of separation of Church and State (i.e. the State cannot profit from Church activities).

Look, Im not Greek so I would never want to dictate what they must do their, but I fail see how this is a healthy relationship for the Church. Good in the short run, I suppose and because of that I don't pretend that moving toward a more biblical model where caesar wasn't involved would easy. It would be revolutionary and revolution, even good revolution, is always painful.
In an odd way, this is a very socialist mentality. "Don't worry, mama will take care of all of your needs... Even spiritual!"

There is a seperation between Chruch and State Joshua ... The State other than the properties do not mandle with the Chruch's affairs. What short run ? the salaries have been paid by the State since the Junta ... No one complained (politicians) up to now. Compairing of the benefits the Church gives the State paying the salaris is peanuts

I see no socialim in the Church running social programs for the poor and the less fortunate actually in Byzantium that was exactly the relationship between state and the chruch. And it worked just fine. It is whent the Sate feels uncomfortable paying the salaries when the Muslim minority will request that their spiritual leaders are treated as the same... I am not sure if the State pays salaries for other chruches at this point but would like to find out ...

 

[Joshua G.]

That was never the case.. The State DOES not treat the Chruch that way... If you do not beleive ask other Greeks on this

But they can. That's my point. And they have already tried to strong arm them into some concessions. Fortunately the Greek Church was saavy enough to outplay them. My point is that your government does not have to have the Church's best interest at heart. It might right now... but that's just because there are still enough religious people defending it.

 

[Protoevangel]

"ΑΛΛΗΛΕΓΓΥΗ" Μ.Κ.Ο. ΤΗΣ ΕΚΚΛΗΣΙΑΣ ΤΗΣ ΕΛΛΑΔΟΣ - Αρχική

It is called Solidarity and it reaches beyond Greece. It aids all kind of causes all over the globe.. Hmmm I do no think it has an English link but maybe it does...

If you use Google Chrome/Chromium, it will automatically detect the language used and offer to translate the page into English for you. As any Web-based translator, it's not perfect, but it's good enough to get the idea of what's being said.

 

[Philothei]

Thanks Proto...I am not too bright when it comes to the web ;-)

 

[Philothei]

But they can. That's my point. And they have already tried to strong arm them into some concessions. Fortunately the Greek Church was saavy enough to outplay them. My point is that your government does not have to have the Church's best interest at heart. It might right now... but that's just because there are still enough religious people defending it.

And with God's help and Theotokos and all the saints are watching over us so we would never need to come to a point when Greeks will loose all integrity at their Faith

 

[Joshua G.]

Nothing "dirty" about this either if the Chruch will be forced to pay the priests salaries they will withhold the monies for their priets...They will have to. How is this dirty?

I was referring to the tactic (as I thought I understood it) of the Church withholding or threatening to withold money from charities so that the government backed away from it's threatening proposal. If I understood correctly, that's a political move and is a a tactic the Church should never be able to consider and would be dirty. However, if I misunderstood, I apologize

 

[Joshua G.]

There is a seperation between Chruch and State Joshua ... The State other than the properties do not mandle with the Chruch's affairs. What short run ? the salaries have been paid by the State since the Junta ... No one complained (politicians) up to now. Compairing of the benefits the Church gives the State paying the salaris is peanuts

I see no socialim in the Church running social programs for the poor and the less fortunate actually in Byzantium that was exactly the relationship between state and the chruch. And it worked just fine. It is whent the Sate feels uncomfortable paying the salaries when the Muslim minority will request that their spiritual leaders are treated as the same... I am not sure if the State pays salaries for other chruches at this point but would like to find out ...

If I am misunderstanding something then I apologize.

Here's my point.

Anytime the Church is made to depend on the State for finances (to pay the priests for example), it is a bad thing in my opinion.

I've already stated why and to me your first post on this demonstrates why.

However, I am sure you and I don't want to go back and forth on something we are probably not going to agree on.

So, I will post what you and I CAN agree on:

And with God's help and Theotokos and all the saints are watching over us

so we would never need to come to a point when Greeks will loose all integrity at their Faith

Although we are all always in danger of losing our faith's integrity (we can't forget that the See of Rome fell from the Church) I certainly don't believe we in the US or those in Russia are any less in danger than Greece. So, God willing, your prayer remains true for all Orthodox Churches!

 

[Thekla]

I was referring to the tactic (as I thought I understood it) of the Church withholding or threatening to withold money from charities so that the government backed away from it's threatening proposal. If I understood correctly, that's a political move and is a a tactic the Church should never be able to consider and would be dirty. However, if I misunderstood, I apologize

The Church is describing a simple cause and effect relationship.

So, if there is revolution in Libya, oil will probably increase in price; that is not a threat, it is a clear probable outcome based on available information.

(Oil is up aprox. 7% today )

 

[Philothei]

If I am misunderstanding something then I apologize.

Here's my point.

Anytime the Church is made to depend on the State for finances (to pay the priests for example), it is a bad thing in my opinion.

I've already stated why and to me your first post on this demonstrates why.

However, I am sure you and I don't want to go back and forth on something we are probably not going to agree on.

So, I will post what you and I CAN agree on:


Although we are all always in danger of losing our faith's integrity (we can't forget that the See of Rome fell from the Church) I certainly don't believe we in the US or those in Russia are any less in danger than Greece. So, God willing, your prayer remains true for all Orthodox Churches!

I never said I won't pray for all Orthodox Churches.... But whatever OK Joshua

 

[Philothei]

YouTube - Orthodox priest enlightens financial sector

I just saw that .. and wanted to ask you all. What do you think of this one? A priest having a secular profession? Since the economy is sooo bad.. I think we might see more and more priests who are called to serve in this capacity. What are your thoughts?

Now back to the topic

 

[ExOrienteLux]

My priest has a second job. Every priest I've ever met who wasn't a monk had a second job.