Priest abused every young boy at regional Victorian school

[ebia]

thank you for showing us the results of letting homosexuals work with children
I hope this will inspire people to take the thread more seriously

Ur, it's not about homosexuality.

It's about abuse of power of children.

 

[ebia]

But this instance it is not really news worthy because the perpetrator got what came to him in the 90's. He ws investigated and sent to prison for his crimes. There was no cover-up about this and really this ort thing unfortunately happened in many places. George Pell should be congratulated for stopping this sort of bhaviour in it's tracks.

Some of the crimes were investigated in the '90s. But they went back to the 60s, and the church never reported any of them, nor provided what it did know, nor whatever it still knows about ones that haven't gone to court. Nor dealt well with the victims. The institutional response has lacked on every dimension. That's why the Royal Commission is going through it.

Ris dale did go to jail for some of his crimes. But not before Mulkearns and others had covered them up for a considerable time, and likely kept some covered up forever. And he was only the tip of the iceberg.

 

[ebia]

well some of these instances were pedophilia, pre-pubescent children

but the reports said that a lot of the victims were also 14, 15, 16
so while that is abuse, sexual imposition, statutory rape, maybe even just rape
it is no longer pedophilia
so when that form of abuse is between two men, that would be homosexuality

while there have been a regrettable number of young women and pre-pubescent boys who have been abused in such a way
the vast majority of these cases seem to be between homosexual men and teen boys, so that would be a case of rampant homosexual abuse, not true pedophilia

Ur, no.

Strictly speaking abusing teenage boys isn't pedophilia, but psychologically it's about power abuse, not about being attracted to men. In ballarat there are plenty of female and younger victims, and victims of nuns. But even the predominance of teenage males reflects those being the ones the culture gave priests freest access to.

 

[ebia]

Top Stories: Bishop warned paedophile during first year of priesthood, inquiry told
http://ab.co/1HJLCnD

 

[ebia]

Top Stories: Catholic Church did not understand effects of paedophilia, abuse: priest
http://ab.co/1Fd9Tvf

 

[ebia]

Interesting at the end: [Bishop Bird] said it would be acceptable to report a crime if a child told him about it, but he would "have to think about it" if he was expected to report on a perpetrator who confessed. (not an unequivocal "not").

Child abuse sex inquiry: Bishop Paul Bird denies as many as 14 Ballarat priests involved in abuse as hearings wrap up

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-...volved-in-child-sex-abuse-in-ballarat/6507368

Bishop Bird said he would be willing to increase payouts to victims to meet their needs and the church would "consider" the effect on their broader families.

...

Bishop Bird said the diocese had established a $1 million fund for survivors, but he had "doubts" it would be enough to meet demand and had not yet made any approaches to other churches for money.

However he did acknowledge under questioning from senior counsel assisting Gail Furness SC, that the diocese did have access to a $100 million "development fund".

Bishop Bird was also asked about his role in reporting anyone who confessed to a crime.

"In my 40 years as a priest, no-one has ever confessed child abuse," he said.

He said it would be acceptable to report a crime if a child told him about it, but he would "have to think about it" if he was expected to report on a perpetrator who confessed.

 

[Armoured]

Top Stories: Pell tried to bribe paedophile's victim to stay quiet, inquiry hears
http://ab.co/1eeIzao

I fully support the current Royal commission, and I certainly think Pell could and should have acted differently (as I believe he, himself, has admitted now). But "bribe"? Such accusations to me speak more of clickbait and axes to grind, more than they do proportional and objective reporting.

 

[ebia]

I fully support the current Royal commission, and I certainly think Pell could and should have acted differently (as I believe he, himself, has admitted now). But "bribe"? Such accusations to me speak more of clickbait and axes to grind, more than they do proportional and objective reporting.

Well, whether the accusation is true or not, the accusation made before the Royal Commission by the victim in question would amount to a bribe to stay quiet. It is a very serious accusation, especially when made under oath. Whether its true or not...

 

[Armoured]

Well, whether the accusation is true or not, the accusation made before the Royal Commission by the victim in question would amount to a bribe to stay quiet. It is a very serious accusation, especially when made under oath. Whether its true or not...

One man's bribe is another man's compensation.

I have no sympathy for the paedophiles themselves, but I think the retroactive damning of a very insular, culture is, well, let's say, ignorant of context, to say the least. I'm not in any way attempting to apologise for anyone, please understand, I just always find people judging events from a while ago by the standards of today, problematic.

 

[ebia]

One man's bribe is another man's compensation.

If the implication is "keep quiet and we give you money" it's a bribe.
If the implication is "we give you money" it's not.

Now, what the truth of what was said by Pell to the person in question we don't know. But what the person is accusing Pell of is clearly a bribe to keep quiet.

I have no sympathy for the paedophiles themselves, but I think the retroactive damning of a very insular, culture is, well, let's say, ignorant of context, to say the least. I'm not in any way attempting to apologise for anyone, please understand, I just always find people judging events from a while ago by the standards of today, problematic.

It's not like we're talking about the Stone Age.
I can understand that some thought people could be cured.
I simply can't get my head around a culture that thought raping children wasn't as serious as it gets and put the interests of the offender and institution above the protection of said children.

 

[Armoured]

If the implication is "keep quiet and we give you money" it's a bribe.
If the implication is "we give you money" it's not.

Not necessarily. Just playing devil's advocate here, but non-disclosure agreements are not uncommon as part of settlements.

Now, what the truth of what was said by Pell to the person in question we don't know. But what the person is accusing Pell of is clearly a bribe to keep quiet.


It's not like we're talking about the Stone Age.
I can understand that some thought people could be cured.
I simply can't get my head around a culture that thought raping children wasn't as serious as it gets and put the interests of the offender and institution above the protection of said children.

I'm not excusing it, I'm just saying it was a different time, when people existed with a different hierarchical mindset. We should try to understand their motivations, if for no other reason than so we can avoid similar mistakes in future

 

[ebia]

Not necessarily. Just playing devil's advocate here, but non-disclosure agreements are not uncommon as part of settlements.

That's not what the victim in question is accusing him of though...

FWIW, I think the non disclosures put on many of the settlements are immoral.

I'm not excusing it, I'm just saying it was a different time, when people existed with a different hierarchical mindset. We should try to understand their motivations, if for no other reason than so we can avoid similar mistakes in future

And because some of the people around them are still in positions of authority, and a lot were raised within the culture that had those assumptions. And whatever influence the official structures had is still in place, along with a lot of the secrecy.

At the very least it's true to say Archbishop Pell was a priest within a culture that, according to others who were in that same culture, didn't see this stuff as very serious. How on earth can anyone have not seen it as serious? Can we trust people now with anything if those same poeple didn't see something that evil as serious then? How can we be sure what has changed? Canon law has barely improved - bishops still can only report abuse to the police if the law requires them to.

It's not that different in time.

 

[Armoured]

That's not what the victim in question is accusing him of though...

FWIW, I think the non disclosures put on many of the settlements are immoral.

And I generally agree with you. I'm subject to one myself after a settlement with a former employer. I think it's deeply immoral, and quite unjust. But it's still legal, while bribes are not.

And because some of the people around them are still in positions of authority, and a lot were raised within the culture that had those assumptions. And whatever influence the official structures had is still in place, along with a lot of the secrecy.

At the very least it's true to say Archbishop Pell was a priest within a culture that, according to others who were in that same culture, didn't see this stuff as very serious. How on earth can anyone have not seen it as serious? Can we trust people now with anything if those same poeple didn't see something that evil as serious then? How can we be sure what has changed? Canon law has barely improved - bishops still can only report abuse to the police if the law requires them to.

It's not that different in time.

Funny thing about how attitudes can change in short time. I'm not sure how old you are, but I'm 37, and Australian, like you, and I can remember a time when to imply someone was homosexual was literally the worst insult you could throw. To actually openly admit to being gay was to embrace social suicide, not to mention invite all sorts of negative treatment, both mental and physical. Now we have openly gay parliament members. <30 years.

Again, I'm not excusing anyone. I'm just saying that social norms can change in a relatively short period, and although today, most people working with children wouldn't dream of staying quiet if a colleague were interfering with kids, 30 years ago, when sexuality, and especially same sex sexual activity was much less talked about, I can understand why there would have been a culture of institutional silence.

It's always easy to pass judgement in hindsight. People always assume that had they been there, they'd have been the dissenting Bonhoeffers of whatever past wrong is being discussed. But the sad fact is, that for nearly all of us, had we been raised and normalised in the culture of the day, we'd almost all be informing on Jewish neighbours along with everyone else.

 

[LoAmmi]

And I generally agree with you. I'm subject to one myself after a settlement with a former employer. I think it's deeply immoral, and quite unjust. But it's still legal, while bribes are not.

I don't know about the law there, but I don't think it's legal to cover up a crime by paying the victim to stay quiet in the US. Covering up a civil matter, sure, but once it moves into criminal behavior it becomes illegal.

 

[Fish and Bread]

Again, I'm not excusing anyone. I'm just saying that social norms can change in a relatively short period, and although today, most people working with children wouldn't dream of staying quiet if a colleague were interfering with kids, 30 years ago, when sexuality, and especially same sex sexual activity was much less talked about, I can understand why there would have been a culture of institutional silence.

It wasn't just silence or failure to report the abusive priests to the police, most of these bishops kept the priests in ministry where they could abuse more kids. They didn't even defrock them or send them off to a cloistered monastery where they wouldn't have any more access to kids. They kept them right there in the parish or put them in another parish where they could lead the church youth group and take them on camping trips if they wanted. It's hard for me to imagine any cultural context where that's okay. But it happened a lot, and not just 30 years ago, Bishop Myers of Newark had reassigned a priest with this type of past to a parish within the last decade or so- he told the other priests to keep an eye on him, but the priest in question still wound up involved in youth group stuff overnight out of town. Some of these bishops need to spend some time in a jail cell. And then they need to be defrocked or at least kept out of positions of authority. They clearly do not have proper judgement to make decisions about where priests are assigned as it pertains to protecting the children of the dioceses they are leading.

At one point, over 50% of active bishops in the US had been involved in a sexual abuse cover up, and there problems in Australia that we're discussiong in this thread, and there were huge problems in Ireland as well. None of them have been fired, though one resigned over what might have been stuff related to this issue (and of course some have died or retired at the customary age with no punishments on their record). The guy overseeing the bishops while this was at it's worst was JP2, and the Church fast tracked him after his death and declared him a Saint within like 5 years (Joan of Arc waited like 400 years). The culture of corruption runs dead in the Roman episcopate.

I've been encouraging people to refuse to contribute to their parishes for years over this issue and drop a form letter in the collection plate talking about why. Maybe that would have gotten some of these rogue bishops fired, if enough people had stopped contributing to the Church.

You know, it's nothing against bishops as a concept. Even when I was a member of another church for a few years- it was the Episcopal Church, a Church with bishops who rule over dioceses wearing miters and having other traditional trappings of a bishop, and who claim Apostolic Succession. However, the Episcopal Church doesn't tend to have problems like this because there is lay involvement in church governance on a continuing basis on all levels in making decisions that effect parishes, dioceses, and the national church. Plus, elected vestries (parish councils) of self-sustaining parishes select their priests (Obviously out of a pool of ordained Episcopalian, Anglican, or [Thanks to an ecumenical arrangement] ELCA Lutheran priests, not just some guy or gal) in consultation with the bishop, and the people of the diocese pick their bishops subject to the approval of the national church bishops and lay representatives from other other dioceses (And then if the bishop selected is a priest rather than a bishop, other bishops consecrate [ordain] him a bishop before he takes over as head of the diocese). I think that system was great. I'm not saying that church never had a problem of any kind with child abusers- but with lay people involved in day to day decisions and oversight and there being so many checks and balances, there is no way a national scandal of this magnitude with bishops covering up for abusive priests and reassigning them would have happened. They'd have been gone.

Why couldn't the Pope remove these RC bishops from positions of authority? He'd have done it in a split second if they ordained a woman or an openly gay man with a partner to the priesthood. But JP2 never to my knowledge ever removed a bishop from a position of authority over his facilitation of child abuse by priests. Cardinal Law was transferred to the Vatican, but only under intense pressure after many years, when there is some thought he might have been criminally charged had he stayed in the US, and Cardinal Law he was there at JP2's funeral in a prominent place a few years after that.

 

[classicalhero]

I do like the sensationalist title this thread has in spite of i not being true.

 

[ebia]

I do like the sensationalist title this thread has in spite of i not being true.

The title comes from the accusation made, under oath, to the Royal Commision. Whether to not it's precisely factual it does represent fairly how bad things were in Ballarat b

 

[ebia]

Top Stories: Pell consults lawyers after being labelled 'callous, almost sociopathic'
http://ab.co/1RCySkw