Priest abused every young boy at regional Victorian school

Rhamiel

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Ok

How does this keep going on ?

I'm beginning to think this isn't a systemic problem as much an institutional one.

What I mean by that is that it isn't how the church is managed (the systems) but that the institution of the priesthood is fundamentally flawed.

I'm not talking about married priest vs unmarried vs women priest vs. homosexual priest. What I'm saying is this (I'm trying to make this very clear, forgive me)

Something is tragically wrong with the way the priesthood is and how priests view themselves and each other.

Like cops. The good one would never rat out the bad ones. Why ?

Because they're all cops and cops don't rat out other cops.

Same thing only with god-like powers. Priests can loose sinners from sin, change wine and bread into the body and blood of Christ, create unifying bonds between people that can't be broken.

Do they view themselves and each other as above review and reproach because of what they are?

I'm seriously beginning to think yes.

yes, like cops! that kind of institutionally being closed off to outsiders
you are very clear in all of this, and you make a lot of sense
I was thinking something very similar but I could not really form it out as clearly as you did

but, is not every group like this in some way?
look at how teachers unions stick up for teachers despite what parents or even administrators think

look at how political parties (all of them) try to bury scandals

while it is horrible when this happens within the Church, and we need to take steps to prevent it from happening, maybe this clannishness is just part of the human condition?
 
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ebia

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Every one involved in this despicable incident should have been prosecuted to the full extent of the law. If found guilty they should have been defrocked and sent to prison.
Just to be clear it isn't "an incident" but a massive number of abuses over an extended period involving a significant proportion of the priests and religious from a relatively small country diocese.

A few have ended up in jail, but most are dead. The bishop is certainly guilty of covering up molestation - but that is not a criminal offence. He was almost certainly guilty of misprision of felony, but it couldn't be proved at the time, and that offence no longer exists. Even if it were still an offence he could be prosecuted for, the church holds all the evidence that still exists, if any, off-shore and won't give it up. The church could still deal with him, but the state is powerless to do so.

The bigger question, though - the one the Royal Inquiry exists to examine - is the response of the institution. How and why did institutions act the way they did when they discovered these things happening, and to what extent have those forces, whether systemic, cultural, whatever, changed to fix it? Why did Mulkearns act the way he did? Why did he not keep records and hand what he knew to the police? (answer at least in part: because Canon Law forbade him doing so, and still does)
 
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Rhamiel

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Just to be clear it isn't "an incident" but a massive number of abuses over an extended period involving a significant proportion of the priests and religious from a relatively small country diocese.

A few have ended up in jail, but most are dead. The bishop is certainly guilty of covering up molestation - but that is not a criminal offence. He was almost certainly guilty of misprision of felony, but it couldn't be proved at the time, and that offence no longer exists. Even if it were still an offence he could be prosecuted for, the church holds all the evidence that still exists, if any, off-shore and won't give it up. The church could still deal with him, but the state is powerless to do so.

The bigger question, though - the one the Royal Inquiry exists to examine - is the response of the institution. How and why did institutions act the way they did when they discovered these things happening, and to what extent have those forces, whether systemic, cultural, whatever, changed to fix it? Why did Mulkearns act the way he did? Why did he not keep records and hand what he knew to the police? (answer at least in part: because Canon Law forbade him doing so, and still does)

most are dead? well that makes it really hard for the full story to come out
and you mentioned before that the Bishop had a stroke and now has problems with his memory?

maybe this is why the Vatican will not hand over documents to this Royal Inquiry
they know that the full story of what happened is now lost in the past, and to embolden people to push on with half truths and incomplete facts does not serve justice
 
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ebia

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yes, like cops! that kind of institutionally being closed off to outsiders
you are very clear in all of this, and you make a lot of sense
I was thinking something very similar but I could not really form it out as clearly as you did

but, is not every group like this in some way?
look at how teachers unions stick up for teachers despite what parents or even administrators think
But that is the job of the union. The system is supposed to work by balances - the school and the teacher registration board looks to the interests of the children and the union to the interest of the teachers, and if it works well (which it doesn't always) the interests of both are looked after as well as is possible.

One of the problems with churches is that the bishop is both the "employer", the supervisor, of the priest, the representative of the professional body (the church), and the pastor responsible for priest's care. That's an enormous and unresolvable conflict of interest, and with official documentation instructing bishops that their first duty the last of those - the pastoral care of the priest.

while it is horrible when this happens within the Church, and we need to take steps to prevent it from happening, maybe this clannishness is just part of the human condition?
It is. That's why we have to ensure the systems exist to challenge it.
 
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ebia

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most are dead? well that makes it really hard for the full story to come out
and you mentioned before that the Bishop had a stroke and now has problems with his memory?
Well, he had a stroke and he says he has problems with his memory.

maybe this is why the Vatican will not hand over documents to this Royal Inquiry
they know that the full story of what happened is now lost in the past, and to embolden people to push on with half truths and incomplete facts does not serve justice
No other organisation can do that. The Royal Commission is the independent body set in place to look to that. it doesn't always make stuff public. Other churches and other bodies have complied with requests for documentation. That will be analysed by the Commission, as it should be.

The RCC can only escape the call for documentation because it systematically moved the documentation to its own sovereign state. Every other body has to comply with the Royal Commision's request. The RCC is saying "we are above the law and will police ourselves" even though they have shown an incapacity to do so. That was the problem in the first place. So long as it stands on that it has not fixed the problem. To my mind, any body that continues to decline to comply with oversight in that way should not be allowed to work with children until it does so, but I don't think we have a government brave enough to make that call.

Note that when the Royal Commission first raised the question of documentation, Cardinal Pell said he expected the Vatican would comply if asked. The Vatican did not.
 
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ebia

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The Ballarat Diocese is a small, rural, diocese of a few hundred thousand people.
One witness to the Royal Commission claims he knows of ten people in the last year who committed suicide as a result of historical sexual and child abuse by clergy in that diocese.

That's not a "well, it happens in every institution and we've done a better job of policing ourselves than most" situation, let alone a "we are God's perfect society and don't need any oversight" situation.
 
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ebia

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it takes people 25 years to come forward?
That's the average.

so there have been no credible allegations of inappropriate behavior of public school teachers from 2005-2015?
That's not what I said. Since the average is 25 years, comparative statistics are not reliable until you reach that kind of distance.

I don't have the figures you asked for, but they wouldn't tell us anything useful if I did.

also, this is a forum for fellowship between and with Catholics
I do not go into the Anglican subforum and say "you guys should not be able to operate in the USA"
so saying that the Catholic Church should not be able to operate schools in Australia does not seem very "fellowship-y"
I don't want the Catholic Church not be able to operate in schools in Australia. I've spent a lot of time working in Catholic schools. Catholic education has done some fantastic work. What the church needs to do, to continue doing so, is to make itself open to scrutiny so the we know children are as safe as possible there. If it continues to refuse to do so, then it puts that in serious jeopardy.

If the Anglican Church of the Salvation Army (who I've also worked for) refused to comply, then I would want them to be called on it in precisely the same way.
 
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Rhamiel

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ofcourse I want everyone who was responsible for those kids getting hurt to face justice

I apologize if I said anything that caused people to doubt that was my belief

I just get upset when secular authorities take advantage of mistakes in from the past and try to exert dominance over the Church
 
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ebia

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ofcourse I want everyone who was responsible for those kids getting hurt to face justice

I apologize if I said anything that caused people to doubt that was my belief

I just get upset when secular authorities take advantage of mistakes in from the past and try to exert dominance over the Church
Secular authorities aren't trying to exert dominance over the Church.

The Royal Commission simply wants to be able to examine the factors around the institutional response of the RCC as it is examining the factors around the responses of the Salvos, the other church, the government institutions, etc. To do so it has to be able to see such paper trail as still exists and understand how the structure beyond the local - right up to the Vatican - influenced that. If Canon Law (which is not infallible) for instance, played a significant part (as very much seems the case) it needs to find that out. If instruction from the Curia (who are not infallible) played a part (as very much seems to be the case) it needs to find that out.

It would not be just if, for instance, the bishop were hung out to dry while a more senior authority that instructed him were never found out.
 
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ebia

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http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/c...r-royal-commission-hears-20150522-gh7hzc.html

The Christian Brothers have done nothing to remove offender Robert Best from its order since he was convicted of multiple sexual offences against children.

Best was convicted in 2011 of sex crimes against 11 boys at schools in Ballarat, Box Hill and Geelong and is currently serving a 14 year, nine-month sentence.

Brother Peter Clinch, leader of the Christian Brothers Oceania Province, told the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse on Friday that Best was still a Christian Brother....
 
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ebia

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You have to remember as well that a Royal Commission has incredible powers BUT this is only a system for Countries in the Commonwealth . Is there a US equivalent ?
Perhaps it needs to be said, for people from other countries:

A Royal Commission acts independently of the government. The government (or strictly speaking, the crown) sets it going with a remit of what it is to investigate, how long, how much funding, and gives it the power to require cooperation. Then it investigates independently of government interference, headed by a judge (remembering that judges are better removed from politics here than the US), and finally reports back on what it has found and what it recommends to the government. It's powers are investigatory - to call witnesses and require documentation and answers to questions. An additional purpose of this one is that it gives victims a voice, a place where they can say to the world what was done to them, if they so choose.

Generally they don't get that much attention; this one is a huge exception partly because its something most people feel strongly about, and partly because far more has come to light for it to hear than was originally expected.
 
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Anhelyna

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LoAmmi

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ofcourse I want everyone who was responsible for those kids getting hurt to face justice

I apologize if I said anything that caused people to doubt that was my belief

I just get upset when secular authorities take advantage of mistakes in from the past and try to exert dominance over the Church

I know how you feel when it comes to defending what you believe. It's really hard to see outsiders attack it.

When I read these types of cases, I don't think about how evil priests are or how often they must prey on the children. I think of the institution covering up the activities and making it so those men do not come to justice. That's the tragedy and if history has shown us anything it's that the cover up is usually worse than the crime happening itself. There have been rabbis who have abused children but I've never seen allegations that the Orthodox Union engaged in moving those rabbis to other synagogues in order to cover it up. That's the problem and that's what this probe seems to be looking into. I hope that the kind of cover ups we're seeing in this thread, which cover more than just the Catholic Church, are stopped. I would prefer for those who participated in the cover ups to spend some time staring at metal bars, but that's unlikely.
 
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