Predestination

[Neogaia777]

How many people hear the gospel, without actually "hearing" the gospel...?

The word (gospel) which they heard preached by us... profited them nothing, not being mixed in (hearing by) faith, so that it profited them nothing, cause they really didn't "hear" it per-say, cause it was not heard or received in faith, not having "ears to", or that, really "hear"...

Does God make some not hear, in order for them not to held accountable (at that time anyway) (cause it maybe wasn't their time yet) anyways, does God make some not hear, in order for them not to held accountable yet (at that time)...?

What would be a good reason for God not wanting some to hear (or hear yet) (at that time), or ever really hear it...?

The kind of hearing God I think is talking about is someone "gets it", not when they don't...

God Bless!

 

[zoidar]

Would a loving parent send their child to hell, as in literal "eternal torment" Hell?

I don't understand why you are asking this? Is it because you don't believe that God loves everyone? I don't believe that God sends anyone to hell, but lets a person reap what he has sown. I believe that a person that doesn't have the holy Spirit, don't want to come to heaven on that day. Why? Because there is no love for Christ in him/her.

When did Pilate ever hear the Gospel? I know he heard the crowd chanting to crucify Him and to give them Barabbas instead. I don't recall him ever hearing the Gospel though.

First of all you have to ask what was the gospel Jesus was teaching people? Did he talk to people that he would die for their sins? No, he didn't. He told people to turn to God and that "the kingdom of God had come". The only people he told about his death was to his apostles and they didn't understand him. This is what he is doing with Pilate, he tells him who he is, and what truth is. He is urging Pilate to repent, but Pilate doesn't listen. But Jesus words get to him (I believe through the holy Spirit), he wants to release Jesus (Joh 19:12). But CHOOSES not to.

"Therefore Pilate entered again into the Praetorium, and summoned Jesus and said to Him, “Are You the King of the Jews?” Jesus answered, “Are you saying this on your own initiative, or did others tell you about Me?” Pilate answered, “I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered You to me; what have You done?” Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world (In other words he saying he is God). If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king (He has now told Pilate that he is a king not of this world but of the coming world, heaven). For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth (he is telling him that the reason he has come into the world is to bring the message of truth, salvation if you will). Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.” (Everyone that is of truth, meaning everyone who believes in him will listen to him, and so should Pilate do too) Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?” (And we all know the story, he chooses not to listen)" /John 18:33-38

 

[zoidar]

Would a loving parent send their child to hell, in literal "eternal torment" Hell?

I would like to ask you another question. What woman would bear three babies, taking care of one child and then put the other two out to the wolves?

What God would create all people in the world, and then take care of some and then give the rest to the Evil One?

"For God so LOVED the world!" /John 3:16

 

[Neogaia777]

I would like to ask you another question. What woman would bear three babies, taking care of one child and then put the other two out to the wolves?

What God would create all people in the world, and then take care of some and then give the rest to the Evil One?

"For God so LOVED the world!" /John 3:16

Actually, most often it is most often the strongest ones that are God's chosen ones who are made to go through the most (get thrown to the wolves, or allowed to attacked by the evil one) (temporarily, not allowed to kill them, but maybe rough them up, or wound or maim them, which will heal) because he can foresee these ones benefiting greatly from the struggle and maturing and growing into the strength that is within them... Anyways, it usually his chosen, most favorite, cause they are the strongest, that goes through the most, so they can become great and strong through it... This is so the weaker ones don't have to...

He takes care of all, but allows the ones who can handle going through the most, to go through the most, so they can be developed into their highest potential, through it... Not putting on anyone more than they can bear... And some may say he does give some more than they can bear, but, I would say how do you know? And, if your talking about you, your still breathing aren't you... It may be that God has faith and confidence and hope in you, but, you do not have it in yourself...

God Bless!

 

[Galatea]

Would a loving parent send their child to hell, as in literal "eternal torment" Hell?

Anyone who goes to Hell goes by choice.

 

[Galatea]

Actually, most often it is most often the strongest ones that are God's chosen ones who are made to go through the most (get thrown to the wolves, or allowed to attacked by the evil one) (temporarily, not allowed to kill them, but maybe rough them up, or wound or maim them, which will heal) because he can foresee these ones benefiting greatly from the struggle and maturing and growing into the strength that is within them... Anyways, it usually his chosen, most favorite, cause they are the strongest, that goes through the most, so they can become great and strong through it... This is so the weaker ones don't have to...

He takes care of all, but allows the ones who can handle going through the most, to go through the most, so they can be developed into their highest potential, through it... Not putting on anyone more than they can bear... And some may say he does give some more than they can bear, but, I would say how do you know? And, if your talking about you, your still breathing aren't you... It may be that God has faith and confidence and hope in you, but, you do not have it in yourself...

God Bless!

God is not like man who has favorites. He has no favorites.

 

[zoidar]

Would a loving parent send their child to hell, as in literal "eternal torment" Hell?

God is not like man who has favorites. He has no favorites.

"Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God." /Rom 2:4-11

 

[Samson Reaper]

Please can you show me where the New Testament God predestine damnation, or to use your words 'who will not be saved'.

Even after many years I have not found where it sat anything like this, rather the opposite- 1 Tim 2:4, I Peter 3:9 etc.

Hmmm, no one has come back showing any evidence that God predestines any one to reprobation. Could be a good reason for this!

 

[98cwitr]

Anyone who goes to Hell goes by choice.

That's like saying a criminal goes to jail by choice. No criminal chooses to go to jail, a judge must sentence them.

 

[98cwitr]

"Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God." /Rom 2:4-11

We've all given a stubborn and unrepentant heart, until it's changed: Ezekiel 36; John 3. Who changes it?

 

[Galatea]

That's like saying a criminal goes to jail by choice. No criminal chooses to go to jail, a judge must sentence them.

If a criminal flaunts the law, refuses to go the right way- then yes, they choose to go to jail. If I know that robbing a bank will get me arrested and I will go to jail, and rob the bank anyway, I have chosen to go to jail.

Eternity is a little different. In this case, the criminal (every person who ever lived is a criminal) is guilty and has chosen Hell by birth and by choice. Sinners by birth, but also sinners by choice. We are all condemned already. The crazy thing is, the judge (who is bound by the law He created) loves these wicked criminals, so He decides to pay the penalty Himself.

The condemned criminals (deserving to go to prison, to be put UNDER the prison) can accept the substitionary payment or reject it. Some dirty criminals will accept, in humility and gratitude. Other dirty criminals will not accept the payment for their crimes- usually because they are deluded in their pride and do not recognize their criminal state. Or, if they recognize their criminal state, they think they can make up for it by good works (this is also pride).

So yes, criminals choose to go to jail.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hmmm, no one has come back showing any evidence that God predestines any one to reprobation. Could be a good reason for this!

Hi SR, as I said in post #50, Biblically, God's active choice to predestine/elect/choose/appoint/ordain some to life/adoption is a choice He makes for the saints alone. The reprobate is left to choose whatever seems right to them, apart from grace, of course, and their fate (whether they are aware of the Law of Moses or they are not), is detailed in Romans 2:12-16.

God's 'not' choosing to predestine some to life is seen as a "passive" choice on His part where they are concerned (but a choice nevertheless).

Yours and His,
David

"As many as had been appointed
to eternal life believed"
Acts 13:48​

 

[zoidar]

We've all given a stubborn and unrepentant heart, until it's changed: Ezekiel 36; John 3. Who changes it?

True before we become Christians we have an unrepentant heart, but if we can do nothing about it, why do the bible tell us to not harden our heart when we hear the message? And why do the bible tell all people to repent, and warning all people about not repenting, if they really can't choose to repent? It feels a bit like telling three employes to use the company car to work, but only one has gotten a company car, then blaming the other two for taking the bus. God changes our heart, but who said that he will change our hearts if we don't choose to repent? I believe that God leads us to repentance, absolutely, but that doesn't take away our choice to unswer the call, to repent when opportunity is given.

“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME.” /Heb 3:15

Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent /Act 17:30

"Because I called and you refused, I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention" /Prov 1:24
"So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way" /Prov 1:31

 

[zoidar]

Hi SR, as I said in post #50, Biblically, God's active choice to predestine/elect/choose/appoint/ordain some to life/adoption is a choice He makes for the saints alone. The reprobate is left to choose whatever seems right to them, apart from grace, of course, and their fate (whether they are aware of the Law of Moses or they are not), is detailed in Romans 2:12-16.

God's 'not' choosing to predestine some to life is seen as a "passive" choice on His part where they are concerned (but a choice nevertheless).

Yours and His,
David

"As many as had been appointed
to eternal life believed"
Acts 13:48​

Maybe this all comes down to the belief of who Jesus died for. If Jesus just died for some people, then maybe "no choice" makes more sense. But if Jesus really loves everyone equally, and died for all men, then it makes more sense to believe that we have a choice to make.

To me, salvation is the work of God, and damnation is the work of man. God wants to save all, he calls on everyone, but when man chooses not to listen he will reap what he has sown.

 

[Fitopia46]

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but we shall fully know when we meet Him face to face. His words.
No one can fully understand everything about God. He is God. All we do know is: He died for US. ALL of us. He gave us ALL a choice to accept or reject Him. He also is ALL KNOWING. He KNOWS who will accept and who will reject Him before it even happens. He has chosen those who would accept Him only because he already knew who would and wouldn't respond to Him.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Fitopia, I see you are new here, so before I shut down for the night I just wanted to say, WELCOME TO CF

God bless you! (Numbers 6:24-26)

--David

 

[Samson Reaper]

Hi SR, as I said in post #50, Biblically, God's active choice to predestine/elect/choose/appoint/ordain some to life/adoption is a choice He makes

And for reason he does , he does not run past mere man for permission.

The reprobate is left to choose whatever seems right to them,

Missing the point as to how thay were reprobate in the first place. If they chose, then like R C Sprouls electron, God is not sovereign. If God predestined them to be reprobate the , as requested, show the verses that say this. Noone on this thread has done that yet.

God's 'not' choosing to predestine some to life is seen as a "passive" choice on His part where they are concerned (but a choice nevertheless).

Standard public Calvinism - often called by non Hyper Calvinism. Not that I believe in Hyper Calvinism, at least it is consistent.


Blessings

​

[/QUOTE]

 

[St_Worm2]

And for reason he does , he does not run past mere man for permission.

Missing the point as to how thay were reprobate in the first place. If they chose, then like R C Sprouls electron, God is not sovereign. If God predestined them to be reprobate the , as requested, show the verses that say this. Noone on this thread has done that yet.

Standard public Calvinism - often called by non Hyper Calvinism. Not that I believe in Hyper Calvinism, at least it is consistent.

Hi SR, starting from the bottom of your reply, I'm not sure what "Standard public Calvinism" is, but Hyper-Calvinism is not Calvinism. Hyper-Calvinism is, at best, outside the pale of orthodoxy, and I'm not sure it can even be labeled, "Christian" (since that particular set of beliefs makes God the undoubted author of evil).

That said, no one is predestined by God to be "lost", because all of us already are (i.e. Romans 3:10-2, 23; Romans 5:12; Ephesians 2:1-3). Rather than allowing "all" to perish however, He chose to save a "remnant", to give His Son His promised "bride"

All then, in a sense, are reprobate, again, because all (even the elect) were lost in our trespasses and sins and on the road to perdition. Saints are those who are separated and saved by God from among the lost. The only question that remains is "what is the basis of God's choice"? Does He choose/elect/predestine us because we first chose Him (IOW, is His choice of us predicated upon our choice of Him), or is the reason for His choice based upon something else entirely?​

Yours and His,
David

"As many as had been appointed
to eternal life believed"
Acts 13:48​

 

[zoidar]

All then, in a sense, are reprobate, again, because all (even the elect) were lost in our trespasses and sins and on the road to perdition. Saints are those who are separated and saved by God from among the lost. The only question that remains is "what is the basis of God's choice"? Does He choose/elect/predestine us because we first chose Him (IOW, is His choice of us predicated upon our choice of Him), or is the reason for His choice based upon something else entirely?

Yours and His,
David

In one sense God elected all men through Jesus Christ, through the cross. "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men" (rom 5:18). So God elected Christ to save mankind, and God elected all that is in Christ for eternal life. He chose before the foundation of the world that all that is in Christ will be holy and blameless before him.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him" /Eph 1:3-4

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Zoidar, the "us" in Ephesians 1:4 refers specifically to those the Epistle is addressed to, the "saints" (see v1 below).

Ephesians 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

If ALL w/o exception are chosen/elect/predestined, then none are (at least not in the sense of being separated/chosen out of something, which is what Biblical "choosing" always involves). It also seems to me that if the Cross resulted in the "justification of life to all men" w/o exception, then all men would be saved, w/o exception, so unless you are a Universalist, v18, taken out of context, says far more than you want it to

I read somewhere that the focus of St. Paul is on method (rather than on numbers) in these verses in Romans 5, and that while the "all" in the first half of v18 is certainly referring to all men w/o exception, the "all" in the second half of the verse is referring specifically (and necessarily) to all "believers" w/o exception.

The contrast in the prior verse, v17, seems to make that point:

Romans 5
17 If by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

I think the Apostle says it best in this short verse however:

"As in Adam all die, so also in Christ, all will be made alive." ~1 Cor 15:22​

Yours in Christ,
David