Predestination

[JDawggS316]

As I read more and more of the Bible with the thought of predestination in the forefront of my mind, I've begun to realize that this is how God seems to have been working the whole time.

I was an advocate of free will, but it just seems that God works through predestination all throughout the Bible.

Now I know this is a hot topic for debate, but I'm just throwing in my proverbial "two cents" here.

 

[itisdeliciouscake]

I don't see any controdiction in free-will and predestination.

tonight I am going to a dinner at my church. it's GOING to happen. I already know that. It's just as good as if it already happened. (but it hasn't yet...)

now, when tonight happens, I COULD say that it's because I was predestined to go to that dinner. (which it was) but I also will have chosen to go to that dinner of my own free-will.


and ya... I really don't understand how people who claim biblical innerency can also claim that God isn't 100% sovereign over every thing.

 

[Emmy]

Dear JDaggS316. God gave us free will, and free will is what it says: Free Will, to choose our future. God also gave us 10 Commandments, loving advice. We can follow it, or go our own way. When Jesus came He showed us God really, a loving Heavenly Father, who wants us back with Him for eternity. Jesus also gave us 2 Commandments, they say all which God`s Commandments contain. 1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. God made us in His image, we are capable of true self-giving LOVE/ Agape. 2) Love our neighbour, i.e. all others, friend or foe. Or put it more easy to understand, treat others as we would like to be treated ourselves. As for Predestination, JDaggS, it is God`s All-powerfulness, which does not only know our Presence, but also our Past, and our Future. God can see who of us is capable, or gifted, to do certain special tasks. Think of Moses, of Billy Graham, and all other chosen men or women, to help and fulfill God`s Plan for us. God does not force or coerce us, God chooses some predestined ones, because God knows All, He can see who will be fulfilling a part of God`s great and wonderful Plan: Etrnity with God our Heavenly Father, and us His loving children. Jesus promised His disciples a place in God`s House, with many mansion. And all we have to do, learn to love God first, and all othesr as we love ourselves: REPENT, exchange our selfish and unloving character, for a selflessly loving one. I say this humbly and with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Korah]

As I read more and more of the Bible with the thought of predestination in the forefront of my mind, I've begun to realize that this is how God seems to have been working the whole time.
I was an advocate of free will, but it just seems that God works through predestination all throughout the Bible.
Now I know this is a hot topic for debate, but I'm just throwing in my proverbial "two cents" here.

There's predestination in the Bible, all right. Great theologians who take it seriously draw out the conclusion that since God wants everyone saved, all must be saved. Karl Barth and Hans Urs von Balthasar (Prot and RC respectively, the top theologians of the 20th Century) wound up as Universalists.
If you don't want to be a Universalist (not that there's anything wrong with that), you must allow for free will.
Korah

 

[spiritwarrior37]

One thing you must consider in all this. Predestination covers both election and reprobation. If you are going to get into predestination, you must look at both sides.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=JDawgg As I read more and more of the Bible with the thought of predestination in the forefront of my mind, I've begun to realize that this is how God seems to have been working the whole time.

Me too.

I was an advocate of free will, but it just seems that God works through predestination all throughout the Bible.

Me too. You're right, He does.

Now I know this is a hot topic for debate, but I'm just throwing in my proverbial "two cents" here.

I see your two & raise you five.

 

[DD2008]

As I read more and more of the Bible with the thought of predestination in the forefront of my mind, I've begun to realize that this is how God seems to have been working the whole time.

I was an advocate of free will, but it just seems that God works through predestination all throughout the Bible.

Now I know this is a hot topic for debate, but I'm just throwing in my proverbial "two cents" here.

I agree with you. It looks like you have actually been studying the bible.

Here are a couple of books that are great biblical study resources on the sovereignty of God:






Both of these are great. Get out your bible and enjoy the truth presented.

 

[boswd]

Calvin also asserted: “God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it.” He also said that while some are “predestined [by God] to be children and heirs of the heavenly kingdom,” others are predestined to be “recipients of his wrath”!



That's the part that just blows my mind that this theology took off.

 

[Tzaousios]

Calvin also asserted: “God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it.” He also said that while some are “predestined [by God] to be children and heirs of the heavenly kingdom,” others are predestined to be “recipients of his wrath”!



That's the part that just blows my mind that this theology took off.

But it is not just Calvin who made this up suddenly and everyone in the Reformation agreed with it.

How do you account for what Paul says in Romans 9 and the vessels fitted out for good use and for destruction?

 

[DD2008]

But it is not just Calvin who made this up suddenly and everyone in the Reformation agreed with it.

How do you account for what Paul says in Romans 9 and the vessels fitted out for good use and for destruction?

In support of the above post:

Proverbs 16:4 ESV
4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.

1 Peter 2:8 ESV
8 and
“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

Romans 9:11-13 ESV
11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

 

[PT Calvinist]

Job 12:10 NLT
For the life of every living thing is in His hand, and the breath of every human being

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Job 12:10 NLT
For the life of every living thing is in His hand, and the breath of every human being

I love the book of Job! I hope to translate that book someday

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Job 2:2 And YHWH is saying to the Satan "where from hence thou are coming"?
And the Satan is answering YHWH and he is saying "from-to-go-to-and-fro/07751 shuwt in land and from to walk in her". [Romans 16:20/Reve 2:9,13]

Matthew 23:15 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! that ye are going about the Sea and the Dry/xhran <3584> to make one proselyte and whenever he may be becoming, ye are making him a son of geennhV twofold-more of ye-selves

 

[PT Calvinist]

I love the book of Job! I hope to translate that book someday

Job 2:2 And YHWH is saying to the Satan "where from hence thou are coming"?
And the Satan is answering YHWH and he is saying "from-to-go-to-and-fro/07751 shuwt in land and from to walk in her". [Romans 16:20/Reve 2:9,13]

Matthew 23:15 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! that ye are going about the Sea and the Dry/xhran <3584> to make one proselyte and whenever he may be becoming, ye are making him a son of geennhV twofold-more of ye-selves

Someone seriously needs to make a fellowship thread on GT so all can discuss verses and translations. That'd be nice.
I like Job too.
Job 2:2
"And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

Genesis 16:8
"And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai."

BTW, IMHO I would use Nestl&#233;-Aland 26 Greek Text

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Someone seriously needs to make a fellowship thread on GT so all can discuss verses and translations. That'd be nice.
I like Job too.

BTW, IMHO I would use Nestl&#233;-Aland 26 Greek Text

I used about 5 greek texts myself.

http://www.greeknewtestament.com/index.htm

There appears to be 2 sites here that use the NA 26

Web Directory: Greek New Testament

The Online Greek Bible. A very pleasantly designed site that presents the Nestle-Aland (26) Greek text in a variety of font options, including the Symbol font (already installed on your machine with Windows). Click on any word to see it parsed and defined. The search function is very sophisticated.
Greek New Testament. By Tony Fisher. The Nestle-Aland (26) Greek New Testament in searchable images. No need for Greek fonts on your machine. Search for words by base or inflected form, and by tense, voice and mood. Also here.

 

[ALIOSIAS]

&#12288;
There are passages of scripture that seem to suggest the course of a person's life is determined before the're born, as in the cases of Jeremiah (Jer. 1:5) and Paul (Gal. 1:15). It is clear from these verses that God had a life plan for Jeremiah and Paul before they were born. This is evidence of exhaustively settled foreknowledge only if Jeremiah and Paul had no choice but to carry out God's plan. Why should we assume this, however? As Paul suggested to King Agrippa, he could have chosen to be "disobedient to the heavenly vision" by which he was called (Acts: 26:19). This alone suggests that God's "call" on a person's life isn't a guarantee that the person will follow Him.

Scripture is filled with examples of people who"rejected God's purpose for themselves" (Luke 7:30). The same is true of every person who refuses to enter God's eternal kingdom, for God wants "all to come to repentance" and be saved (2 Peter 3:9). The reality of sin and damnation, in other words, demonstrates that God's purposes do not always come about.
Hence, the fact that God intended a course of action for Jeremiah and Paul didn't guarantee that it would come about. Jeremiah and Paul were still free agents, despite God's unique calling on their lives.

Albert Finch

​

 

[OnOffence]

&#12288;
There are passages of scripture that seem to suggest the course of a person's life is determined before the're born, as in the cases of Jeremiah (Jer. 1:5) and Paul (Gal. 1:15). It is clear from these verses that God had a life plan for Jeremiah and Paul before they were born. This is evidence of exhaustively settled foreknowledge only if Jeremiah and Paul had no choice but to carry out God's plan. Why should we assume this, however? As Paul suggested to King Agrippa, he could have chosen to be "disobedient to the heavenly vision" by which he was called (Acts: 26:19). This alone suggests that God's "call" on a person's life isn't a guarantee that the person will follow Him.

Scripture is filled with examples of people who"rejected God's purpose for themselves" (Luke 7:30). The same is true of every person who refuses to enter God's eternal kingdom, for God wants "all to come to repentance" and be saved (2 Peter 3:9). The reality of sin and damnation, in other words, demonstrates that God's purposes do not always come about.
Hence, the fact that God intended a course of action for Jeremiah and Paul didn't guarantee that it would come about. Jeremiah and Paul were still free agents, despite God's unique calling on their lives.

Albert Finch

it did guarantee because God already knows the choices we will make before we make them and incorporates that into His design

 

[Emmy]

Dear JDawggS316. I cannot help being quite taken aback, to read, amongst other messages, Calvin saying: " predestined to be recipients of His wrath." Jesus showed us God, a loving Heavenly Father, who did not give us up after we had strayed too far away from Him. God gave His own Son, part of His Spirit, to die, that we might live. Such is the great LOVE our God has for us. Could that possibly be the same God who predestines some to be " recipients of His wrath?" Is`nt it more likely that God knew that some will always use freedom to follow their own choosing, and used that stubbornness, or whatever it was, to further God`s Plan for the redemption of Mankind? I say this humbly and with assurance. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[MrPolo]

From what I can gather, Calvin's "recipients of His wrath" idea comes from a misinterpretation of the potter and the clay in Romans 9, and limited interpretation of the word "all" or "all nations" when Scripture says God desires all to be saved.

 

[jmacvols]

As I read more and more of the Bible with the thought of predestination in the forefront of my mind, I've begun to realize that this is how God seems to have been working the whole time.

I was an advocate of free will, but it just seems that God works through predestination all throughout the Bible.

Now I know this is a hot topic for debate, but I'm just throwing in my proverbial "two cents" here.

God predestined that a class of people called Christians would be saved, so people use their free will to decide if they want to become part of that class or not. Those that do decide to become a Christian then become part of that predestined class. God did not predestine just certain individuals to be saved, else we are dealing with an unjust, unfair, unloving God that is culpable for the lost.

 

[sungaunga]

One thing you must consider in all this. Predestination covers both election and reprobation. If you are going to get into predestination, you must look at both sides.

yea and you're talkig about double predestination. Calvinist do not take the positive-positive view. We adhere to the positive-negative view.