Pre-lent? Liturgical changes?

[~Anastasia~]

I thought of tacking this question onto EvangelCatholic's thread in the Traditional Theology forum, but I might need more Orthodox to see it to get an answer?

He mentioned a particular season ... Geisema Sundays?

Anyway, this past Sunday, I didn't even recognize the hymn (I need to know what to call it - I'm sorry) that is sung just before the Great Entrance. It sounded SO different. It has every single DL been kind of awe-inspiring that evoked feelings of trembling before the altar in heaven. But this time was different. I asked the lady that answers a lot of my questions, and she just said it might be a different tone. But I do know it's never sounded like this ... It's not a matter of cycling by weeks. (Our Church is Greek btw and this part is done by the choir.)

Also the Great Entrance was led by an altar boy with a candle of the type used during the Lamentations service.

There was mention of "no alleluias" during lent or pre-lent, but the songs that normally have them still had them.

Vestments are gold, or gold and white.

So ... Can anyone tell me what kind of liturgical season we are entering (new calendar), and what aspects are a part of it? Thank you so much!

 

[GregConstantine]

I've never heard of geisma sundays, but everything else you've described is perfectly normal and not out of the ordinary. There are many ways to sing the Cherubic Hymn, you were just hearing a different tone.

We are now in the period between wrapping up Theophany and the begining of Great Lent. The pre-lenten season has not yet begun. The next major feast will be the Presentation of Christ in the Temple Feb 2 or 3rd I believe.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hmmmmm thank you so much. I thought the tones were supposed to change regularly? It just threw me off because I've heard it essentially (or exactly) the same for close to a year, and this time it sounded completely different. It was such a surprise to me. And one of the things that made the biggest impression on me my first Sunday in Church (I couldn't attend on Sundays with the choir until Palm Sunday last year).

Thank you for the information. I'm always a little surprised to see what "happens" in Church around the feasts. I really enjoyed Theophany because we went to another Church and priests from several parishes were there (including ours) and we had the procession to the water.

I think the first year must be wonderful in it's own way, because everything is a surprise. But I'm REALLY looking forward to Holy Week too, now that I know better what's going on.

I love our Church.

 

[gzt]

The Cherubic Hymn is one of the most frequently varied hymns in terms of musical settings. There is no rhyme or reason to the choice, however, except that in Byzantine practice one traditional thing to do is have it in the tone of the week (the Russians have no such guidance). One thing choir directors do is vary it according to liturgical season, which may be what yours are doing.

A lot changes in Lent, but the offices that change most dramatically are the daily cycle rather than the resurrectional cycle (ie Sundays).

 

[~Anastasia~]

The Cherubic Hymn is one of the most frequently varied hymns in terms of musical settings. There is no rhyme or reason to the choice, however, except that in Byzantine practice one traditional thing to do is have it in the tone of the week (the Russians have no such guidance). One thing choir directors do is vary it according to liturgical season, which may be what yours are doing.

A lot changes in Lent, but the offices that change most dramatically are the daily cycle rather than the resurrectional cycle (ie Sundays).

Hmmmm. Thank you. The daily I am of course much less familiar with. We are a (small to) medium-sized parish but with only one priest and no deacon, so we don't have daily Divine Liturgy as often as some parishes can do. I go to nearly all that are offered, but I am less familiar since it does vary and often I read over it later for anything I can learn and just listen while in Church. When I heard the weekday ones last year during Lent, they were still all new to me.

Interesting. I may see about joining the choir soon. I think (God willing) I may be working in the county where my Church is, so I would finally be able to attend choir practice. I will ask the choir director (he's wonderful!) if I am able to.

Thank you again.

 

[gzt]

The pre-Lent season begins with Zaccheus Sunday. It's next Sunday for the Russian-style. The Greeks have a different thing that's a week off, but I forget whether that's ahead or behind (ie whether they add or subtract a week). The first week of the Triodion - ie, when we break out the Lent book and start having hymns - is Feb 1st.

 

[gzt]

Hmmmm. Thank you. The daily I am of course much less familiar with. We are a (small to) medium-sized parish but with only one priest and no deacon, so we don't have daily Divine Liturgy as often as some parishes can do. I go to nearly all that are offered, but I am less familiar since it does vary and often I read over it later for anything I can learn and just listen while in Church. When I heard the weekday ones last year during Lent, they were still all new to me.

Interesting. I may see about joining the choir soon. I think (God willing) I may be working in the county where my Church is, so I would finally be able to attend choir practice. I will ask the choir director (he's wonderful!) if I am able to.

Thank you again.

And by the daily, the biggest thing is the changes in teh daily office, not just liturgy. During Lent, by the way, daily liturgies are not done, though the presanctified liturgy is prescribed for Wednesday and Friday.

 

[~Anastasia~]

And by the daily, the biggest thing is the changes in teh daily office, not just liturgy. During Lent, by the way, daily liturgies are not done, though the presanctified liturgy is prescribed for Wednesday and Friday.

Yes, I do remember. The only liturgy I actually attended until Palm Sunday was a presanctified. Which obviously would be different, but since I had nothing to compare it to at the time ... My memory is fuzzy. It was more often connected to Vespers though at the first Church I attended, but I'm not sure about mine.

 

[GregConstantine]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you are an inquirer or a catechumen, I would suggest holding off participating in the choir before being chrismated. Being in the choir is considered a ministry, and in my opinion should be reserved only for baptized practicing Orthodox.

However, if your parish priest gives you a blessing, then go for it. This is just my opinion, I don't think there's anything official prohibiting singing in a choir (being a reader however, you do need to be a baptized Orthodox Christian)

 

[Anhelyna]

Dunno about Greek practice - but in the Slavic practice [ certainly with us Ukrainians ] we use St Basil's Liturgy on the Sundays of the Great Fast - and that mainly affects the faithful as instead of singing " It is truly right ...... " they should now sing " In you, O Full of Grace all creation rejoices ..... " The priests prayers do differ and are slightly longer.

I'm looking forward to Pre-Sanctified Liturgies - hopefully the congregation will be a bit larger than last year .

 

[Anhelyna]

GregC - Kylissa is a full member of the Orthodox Church

 

[GregConstantine]

My apologies! for some reason, I thought she was an inquirer or a catechumen.

 

[Kristos]

There are only three different hymns that are sung at the Great Entrance of the Divine Liturgy. The normal, Cherubic Hymn, is sung every Divine liturgy except on Holy Thursday and Holy Saturday, when "Receive me today" and "Let all mortal flesh keep silent" respectively are sung instead. The Cherubic Hymn itself can be sung in many, many ways - it is probably the most musically developed of all the hymns in the DL, with setting from great composers like Tchaikovsky. Many choir directors will vary the setting for different reasons - none of them theological. It's more for interest. The pre-sanctified liturgy also has it's own hymn at this point, which is "now the powers of heaven", but liturgically the act of the entrance is very different, so I wouldn't really group it together with the others although it is similar in some respects.

 

[Kristos]

And the "no alleluias" during Lent is a western/latin/catholic thing - we double them

 

[Mary of Bethany]

The Gesima Sundays are a western thing too. Septuagesima = 70 days before Easter; Sexagesima = 60 days before; Quinquagesima = 50 days before.
I've never heard of that in reference to an Orthodox parish (unless maybe Western Rite parishes use it?)

As others have said, our "pre-Lent" starts with Zaccheus Sunday. That's awesome that you're thinking of joining the Choir. You will learn so much just by learning the structure of the Liturgy and Vespers, etc.

Mary

 

[Mary of Bethany]

And the "no alleluias" during Lent is a western/latin/catholic thing - we double them

Exactly, lol! That was confusing to me, coming from an Anglican parish!

Mary

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, someone encouraged me to join the choir as a catechumen, but I didn't feel right about it. I knew I would learn a lot. But I thought it best to be received first.

I've always been interested, but it was hard to justify an extra drive in every week when sometimes it was hard to get to liturgy. But things are changing - I may be working near the Church, and I could attend practice afterwards, God willing.

I am very curious about what he did with the Cherubic Hymn (it was that one, thank you) and why. It has never been different until now. I'm not complaining, because everything is good, but it always gave a tremendous sense of awe - like coming before the altar in Heaven itself, with angels looking on and The Lord present. It was perfect. And honestly, something that REALLY drew me into the liturgy and made me have to come on Sundays from the first time I heard it. That and the joyous Trisagion, when it makes me think of praising God at the very throne, again accompanied by angelic choirs. Our choir director is pretty amazing I think. He was given a special award this year at the Archdiocese.

Anyway, thank you so much for the answers. I do hope I can be involved in the choir. There really is so much to be learned. And I appreciate the fullness of it all so much.

No problems on the mistake either, I probably sound like a catechumen since I don't even know the whole liturgical cycle yet. I'm almost to that point though!

 

[ArmyMatt]

I do hope I can be involved in the choir. There really is so much to be learned. And I appreciate the fullness of it all so much.

and few things can catechise better than the hymns of the Church, and it's easier to pay attention in the choir.

 

[~Anastasia~]

and few things can catechise better than the hymns of the Church, and it's easier to pay attention in the choir.

One more reason I hope I work near the Church!

 

[GoingByzantine]

That wasn't my thread in TT