Pre-advent judgment of Revelation 14 and Daniel 7 -- accept or reject?

[BobRyan]

I can't help but notice the fact that you label yourself as a Seventh Day Adventist.

Thanks. I do that a lot.

Do you subscribe to the false teaching of that cult concerning the so called "investigative judgment"?

1. Not a cult according to Walter Martin in his book Kingdom of the Cults.
2. Not a cult according to Chrtistianity Today article last year - declaring the SDA church to be the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world.
3. Not a cult according to this Christian Forums board.
4. Not a cult according to the Bible.

As for the judgment of Romans 2, and Daniel 7 - your idea that this should be cut out of the Bible "noted" -- but it does not put you in favor of "sola scriptura" -- only opposed to it.

I
If you cop to that heresy

'cop to heresy'???

Your resort tor dark-ages style name-calling-over-substance... noted. But that sort of stuff does not work so well in the light of the modern age. We can all read now - and we do have Bibles.

As for clarifying the pre-advent judgment of Daniel 7 - you can see it right in the chapter.
As for clarifying the pre-advent judgment or Rev 14:7 -- you can see it right in the chapter.
As for clarifying the fact that the judgment was future to Paul's day -- you can see it in Romans 2:13-16 and in 2Cor 5:10.
As for clarifying the fact that in the future according to John - there would 'come a time to judge the dead' we see it in Revelation 11 "And the time came to judge the dead"

Since you have no Bible position expressed on this point - and since this thread is not about the pre-advent judgment of Daniel 7 and Revelation 14 -- maybe I should start this as a thread for you. Then you can have full freedom to focus on this topic.

I will be happy to join you. (So I am starting that thread)
==========================================

Shall we reject the Bible doctrine on judgment or accept it? No need to just settle for 'name calling'

 

[BobRyan]

Daniel 7

The Ancient of Days Reigns
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

11 Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.

The Son of Man Presented
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

The Vision Interpreted
15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me. 16 I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. 18 But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.’

19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet, 20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

28 “At this point the revelation ended.

 

[BobRyan]

pre-advent Judgment in Revelation 14

6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

8 And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.”

Doom for Worshipers of the Beast
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”

The Reapers
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

 

[BobRyan]

Future Judgment to Paul's day - in Romans 2

Romans 2

2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

Future judgment to Paul's day - includes all Christians - saved and not saved.

2 Cor 5
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rev 11
18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

 

[BobRyan]

So now Marvin -- who "else" but Seventh-day Adventists are going around talking about these Bible texts and pointing to their importance right here at the end of time??

 

[EmSw]

So now Marvin -- who "else" but Seventh-day Adventists are going around talking about these Bible texts and pointing to their importance right here at the end of time??

Hello Bob. I've repeatedly given the Romans 2 verses on this forum. I've probably heard every excuse that God doesn't render ETERNAL LIFE to those who do good. Yet, it is right there in black and white.

Many of the 'no works' believers want to get eternal life before doing good. They frown upon patience in good works when it pertains to eternal life.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob. I've repeatedly given the Romans 2 verses on this forum. I've probably heard every excuse that God doesn't render ETERNAL LIFE to those who do good. Yet, it is right there in black and white.

Many of the 'no works' believers want to get eternal life before doing good. They frown upon patience in good works when it pertains to eternal life.

Good point. Matt 7 Christ said "By their fruits you shall know them" .. he then challenged the idea that those who merely "say, Lord Lord" will enter heaven - though they live in rebellion as those who "hear but do not".

In Romans 8:4-10 Paul makes the case that it is only the wicked who are at war with God and His Law and who "do not - and can not submit to the Law of God".

Obedience in the NT - is never "a bad thing" according to the NT writers.

 

[sdowney717]

15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me. "

Revelation 19:10New King James Version (NKJV)
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Your examples as prophetic visions of the future of what will be.
Not that these have happened yet.
Satan has not been cast into hell and the saints have not yet inherited the earth.

That these prophecies are not yet fulfilled should be obvious.
In fact all these things are still in the future, not past.
Pre advent, before Christ or after, none of these are yet fulfilled

From Daniel
27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

From Christ of that age to come, the world to come of which we speak.
Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Luke 20:34-36New King James Version (NKJV)
34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Mark 10:29-31New King James Version (NKJV)
29 So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, 30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”

From the Apostles
Hebrews 2
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

From Peter

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

 

[sdowney717]

A few years ago a youth pastor at my church started teaching that the age to come, had come, the words of 2 Peter had been fulfilled, the end of the age being the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and Revelations had no future as it had been fulfilled. All this was done secretly unawares by most adults in the church, but some elders were complicit. I only found out when talking with my daughter who was in the youth group.
He taught Nero was the antichrist of Revelation and that we are living in the new heavens and new earth. So in reality he taught the resurrection was passed. and the guy was somewhat clueless although totally unaware of the inconsistencies in his doctrines.

One of this youth pastors proofs was where Jesus warned He was coming soon, the time was near, the book was only written to those believers suffering under Nero, well that meant he had to have come already as he said soon. He was a mostly full preterist. I opposed him and was the only one to do so. The leadership refused to listen to me, but in the years since, he is no longer the youth pastor, although still a pastor, and I do not go to that church. Some of their last arguments in favor of their youth pastor was it does not matter since it is not a salvation doctrine,

 

[sdowney717]

Preterism
Preterism is a view in Christian eschatology which holds that some or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the Last Days refer to events which took place in the first century after Christ's birth, especially associated with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning past, since this view deems certain biblical prophecies as past, or already fulfilled.

Preterism is most dramatically contrasted with Futurism, the view that most prophecies regarding the End times, and passages referring to Last Days, Great Tribulation, andJudgment are still future and will immediately precede the return of Christ. Proponents of preterist views generally fall in one of two categories: Partial Preterism or Full Preterism.

http://www.theopedia.com/preterism

Preterism is a heresy, Since the age of the resurrection is still in the future. Preterism does deny the coming tribulation of end time judgement and an antichrist figure. Resurrection is always the full body resurrection not the soul. Christ being the example of this, being the first fruits.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Revelation 20 -- thru:-- Revelation 21 gives you the order of events of how things happen.

The Millennium or 1,000 year reign of Christ (beginning of Revelation 20).
The Final Judgment (the dead small and great stand before God) (at the end of Revelation 20).
The Eternal New Earth and the city of New Jerusalem that comes down from out of Heaven to rest upon this new world (Revelation 21).


...

 

[BobRyan]

That is true Jason. It is all right there on the pages from Rev 19-22 in the same sequence that the Bible presents it.

 

[BobRyan]

15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me. "

Revelation 19:10New King James Version (NKJV)
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Your examples as prophetic visions of the future of what will be.
Not that these have happened yet.
Satan has not been cast into hell and the saints have not yet inherited the earth.

That these prophecies are not yet fulfilled should be obvious.
In fact all these things are still in the future, not past.
Pre advent, before Christ or after, none of these are yet fulfilled

Then we both agree that Daniel in Daniel 7 and Paul in Romans 2 and in 2Cor 5:10 and John in Rev 14:7 are all speaking of a Judgment future to their day.

(Judgment starting at the end of the 2300 year timeline in Daniel 8... would still be future to their day because that would put it in 1844 A.D.).

So we are not talking about Preterism - but rather judgment future to the Bible writer's time - and judgment just before the still-future 2nd coming.

From Daniel
27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

Which is the 2nd coming - and vs 27 points out that this happens AFTER vs 21-26.

==================

Marvin's argument that noticing this detail somehow causes one to lose Christian faith - is a bit of a puzzle.

 

[DingDing]

...

Since you have no Bible position expressed on this point - and since this thread is not about the pre-advent judgment of Daniel 7 and Revelation 14 -- maybe I should start this as a thread for you. Then you can have full freedom to focus on this topic.

I will be happy to join you. (So I am starting that thread)
==========================================

Shall we reject the Bible doctrine on judgment or accept it? No need to just settle for 'name calling'

I responded "other" because I don't understand the question in the OP. So what is this "pre-advent judgment of Daniel 7 and Revelation 14" thing? Never heard of it.

 

[BobRyan]

I responded "other" because I don't understand the question in the OP. So what is this "pre-advent judgment of Daniel 7 and Revelation 14" thing? Never heard of it.

Let's take the Daniel 7 example

Daniel 7

The Ancient of Days Reigns
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

11 Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.

The Son of Man Presented
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

The Vision Interpreted
15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me. 16 I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. 18 But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.’

19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet, 20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

28 “At this point the revelation ended.

Notice that in
vs 9-10 you have the court sitting and judgment is beginning.
In vs 21 we find that the saints are persecuted "until" judgment is passed in favor of the saints.
In vs 26-27 we are told that as a result of that completed judgment - the 2nd coming happens.

So then the Advent of Christ (His second coming) is preceded in this example by judgment. Which Daniel 7 says is coming after the 1260 years of the dark ages. And after the fall of the 4th beast of Daniel 7 which is the pagan Roman empire.

 

[BobRyan]

So next - we have the Rev 14 example -

pre-advent Judgment in Revelation 14

6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

8 And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.”

Doom for Worshipers of the Beast
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”

The Reapers
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

Notice that Rev 14:7 points to a time future to John where the announcement is given "the hour of His judgment has come".

Then in vs 14 we have the statement that there is an event in heaven - and the hour to reap the earth has come -- and the earth is reaped (the saints are raptured out of the earth at the 2nd coming).

And also the wicked are slain in the wine press of the wrath of God (also at the 2nd coming).

What Dan 7 and Rev 14 have in common is that in both cases the judgment is future to their day - and in both examples the judgment precedes the 2nd coming (which is the 2nd "Advent" of Christ). so it is a "pre-Advent" Judgment.