Post-tribulation rapture truth.

[Truth Files]

"So there we have it! We shall not be changed until the dead in Christ rise first. And the dead in Christ do not rise until the last trumpet, which is the very end. AFTER the Tribulation."

>I don't think you have it

>Tell me more about the last trumpet

>Do you pick the last of the 7 in Revelation .... or the great trumpet after the tribulation is over?

>Are these different, or the same? .... explain your answer and demonstrate with scripture

>What do the scriptures tell about the sounding of the 7th of Revelation? ..... find them all and explain in your own words

>What do the scriptures tell of the great trumpet that sounds after the tribulation is over? .... again, find them all and explain [Hint: one is in the O.T.]

>And then show the "rapture" .... resurrection .... for the Lord's church ..... or what ever you call it, within the verses that you present and explain

>Do this to show that you are willing to study .... you say that the "pre-tribbers" don't do it because satan has them deceived into thinking that the Lord is going to call them home before He comes to vex and destroy the inhabitants of the earth because of their intransigence

>So back up you claim to show that you are willing to learn more and to discover truth from the prophetic scriptures, and then I am going to ask you to demonstrate by examples the Pre-tribbers who know very little or nothing of the same according to you because they believe they are going to be kept from the tribulation and can therefore ignore any obligation or desire to seek truth about these things

>Believe this .... I can support my understanding with uncompromising detail .... and I am one that you call a "pre-tribber" who has fallen for satan's lie and therefore has no interest in or ability to study and render the more sure word of prophecy presented in the Bible .... because I don't have to .... according to you

>Get real little lady ..... I am waiting for your response to my questions above

 

[zeke37]

the last trumpet is the last one...i don't understand what is so hard about that...

no more after the last one....none...not any...nowhere



perhaps there is other scripture that shows the same last trumpet from another perspective...
but there can be no other trumpet after that last one.

of course post tribbers contend this same last trumpet is the 7th trumpet (last one in Rev)
and i agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Matthew 25:29-31.....29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

See? Jesus is saying that He shall appear AFTER the Tribulation.....

Hi Migdala

Actually you might look back and find out what the tribulation was in those days, and then you might find out the meaning of the stars falling from heaven.....hint Rev. 12, and then find out what will happen next.


We also know that we will not be raptured until the dead in Christ have risen first, right?

1 Thessalonians 4:15 (King James Version)

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

This just means the dead in Christ rise first.

Ok, so the key is to find out WHEN the dead in Christ rise....whether it is before or after the Tribulation.....so we go on over to 1 Corinthians 15:20-24, where we see that Christ has become the firstfruits......

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

So we see here that Christ is the Firstfruit, and that no one will be raptured until the dead in Christ rise first......

So now the key is to find out WHEN the dead in Christ rise....before or after the Tribulation??? So we go down to 1 Corinthians 15:51......


51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So there we have it! We shall not be changed until the dead in Christ rise first. And the dead in Christ do not rise until the last trumpet, which is the very end. AFTER the Tribulation.

Nice presentation, however, the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets and is not the 7th trumpet blown by an angel.

Let me leave you with this. When you understand what the true meaning of the parable of the fig tree is you will understand why there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. File that in the back of your mind somewhere, and don't forget it.

 

[4runner]

Nice presentation, however, the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets and is not the 7th trumpet blown by an angel.

Another person denying that the last trump is the last trump????? Unbelievable!!! Whether the last trump is the7th trumpet or not there can be no argument whether or not it will be the lst trump or not. God's word says it is.

Let me leave you with this. When you understand what the true meaning of the parable of the fig tree is you will understand why there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. File that in the back of your mind somewhere, and don't forget it.

There will be no pretrib rapture for all the reasons the O.P. as well as Migdala hve stated, and the parable of the fig tree is not the secret piece to some misterous puzzle.

 

[Truth Files]

4r,

Is the "last trumpet" sounding in Revelation's unfolding before, or after the battle of Armageddon?

Is the great trumpet blown in Matthew 24:29-31 before, or after the battle of Armageddon?

Are these the same ...... or different soundings [trumpets] at different times?

If different, which one is the "last" trumpet?

 

[4runner]

4r,

Is the "last trumpet" sounding in Revelation's unfolding before, or after the battle of Armageddon?

Is the great trumpet blown in Matthew 24:29-31 before, or after the battle of Armageddon?

Are these the same ...... or different soundings [trumpets] at different times?

If different, which one is the "last" trumpet?

I know, I know..... the last trump will be the very last trumpet to ever sound.

 

[Migdala]

"So there we have it! We shall not be changed until the dead in Christ rise first. And the dead in Christ do not rise until the last trumpet, which is the very end. AFTER the Tribulation."

>I don't think you have it

>Tell me more about the last trumpet

>Do you pick the last of the 7 in Revelation .... or the great trumpet after the tribulation is over?

>Are these different, or the same? .... explain your answer and demonstrate with scripture

>What do the scriptures tell about the sounding of the 7th of Revelation? ..... find them all and explain in your own words

>What do the scriptures tell of the great trumpet that sounds after the tribulation is over? .... again, find them all and explain [Hint: one is in the O.T.]

>And then show the "rapture" .... resurrection .... for the Lord's church ..... or what ever you call it, within the verses that you present and explain

>Do this to show that you are willing to study .... you say that the "pre-tribbers" don't do it because satan has them deceived into thinking that the Lord is going to call them home before He comes to vex and destroy the inhabitants of the earth because of their intransigence

>So back up you claim to show that you are willing to learn more and to discover truth from the prophetic scriptures, and then I am going to ask you to demonstrate by examples the Pre-tribbers who know very little or nothing of the same according to you because they believe they are going to be kept from the tribulation and can therefore ignore any obligation or desire to seek truth about these things

>Believe this .... I can support my understanding with uncompromising detail .... and I am one that you call a "pre-tribber" who has fallen for satan's lie and therefore has no interest in or ability to study and render the more sure word of prophecy presented in the Bible .... because I don't have to .... according to you

>Get real little lady ..... I am waiting for your response to my questions above

First off, I don't appreciate your attitude with me. I am not your "little lady" at all, nor do I even have to answer back to you at all. I have not been rude like you are being towards me. I am a new Christian, and do not know every bit of the Bible, but this is my opinion of the Rapture....we all know that no one taught that doctrine at all until that girl had that dream in the early centuries...I can't remember her name-Mary Margaret or something. We all have our theories on when it occurs, and I choose to believe what Jesus says in His own words over someone else's speculations. It would be nice if it does occur before the Tribulation, but it will happen when it will happen, and only God knows when.

 

[4runner]

First off, I don't appreciate your attitude with me. I am not your "little lady" at all, nor do I even have to answer back to you at all. I have not been rude like you are being towards me. I am a new Christian, and do not know every bit of the Bible, but this is my opinion of the Rapture....we all know that no one taught that doctrine at all until that girl had that dream in the early centuries...I can't remember her name-Mary Margaret or something. We all have our theories on when it occurs, and I choose to believe what Jesus says in His own words over someone else's speculations. It would be nice if it does occur before the Tribulation, but it will happen when it will happen, and only God knows when.

Amen..Awesome..You keep standing on he words of Christ. Never let someone deceive you. You have the truth hold on to it. Your post made my day, thank you very much.

 

[Charles Spurgeon]

Truth Files... let me verge off for a second... how were you saved? when were you saved? How is a person saved? What are you trusting in for your salvation?

 

[Zugzwang]

... I am a new Christian, and do not know every bit of the Bible, but this is my opinion of the Rapture....we all know that no one taught that doctrine at all until that girl had that dream in the early centuries...I can't remember her name-Mary Margaret or something. We all have our theories on when it occurs, and I choose to believe what Jesus says in His own words over someone else's speculations. It would be nice if it does occur before the Tribulation, but it will happen when it will happen, and only God knows when.

It's good then that you admit that you are a new Christian, however, since you are one, (new) you would think that you would take the time to listen to those that have been around longer, and have studied the Bible longer than you have been a Christian.

This lie, for example, about the rapture not being taught until the 1800's, have you even bothered to fact-check this? Do you not take the time to look up stuff that goes AGAINST what you believe, so maybe you can form a well-rounded opinion/idea?

It took me a whole 10 seconds on google.

The History of the Pre-trib Rapture

That's ONE link of literally thousands, (if not hundreds of thousands) that flat out prove that the "myth" of the rapture, is in itself a myth! a lie, a fabrication. Don't trust that source? Look for another. Don't trust that one either? How many "proofs" do you need?

My only point here is don't base your doctrine about the rapture on a lie about it, nor the words of men, but use the Bible to prove/disprove it, as I hope I have disproved your reason for NOT believing in the rapture.

 

[Zugzwang]

I know, I know..... the last trump will be the very last trumpet to ever sound.

Do you know ANYTHING about Rosh Hashannah? anything at all?

You may think this line of questioning is redundant, I assure you it is not.

For example, are you aware that the "last trump" during Rosh Hashannah is also known as the "Day of the Awakening Blast?"

Rapture-Rosh Hashanah

Keep in mind the culture of the Jews when you read this, this was theirs, nothing needed explained to them. Same as the Wedding Feast, many ppl agree that the Feast symbolizes Christ's return, and well it should since Christ said as much in the gospel.

So, if we look at what is entailed during said Feast, we'll get more hints what to look for, what to expect that ISN'T in scripture, but which the Jews in this time period already knew! (They didn't need "last trump" explained to them, much like most Americans don't need the explanation that "turkey Day"=Thanksgiving!

And before you throw the baby out with the bathwater and say the Feasts mean nothing, you may want to take a look and see that they were fulfilled in ORDER, and that the VERY NEXT FEAST that is yet to be fulfilled, by God HIMSELF, is in fact the Feast of Trumpets.

Food for thought.

 

[Zugzwang]

Nice presentation, however, the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets and is not the 7th trumpet blown by an angel.

Let me leave you with this. When you understand what the true meaning of the parable of the fig tree is you will understand why there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. File that in the back of your mind somewhere, and don't forget it.

 

[zeke37]

First off, I don't appreciate your attitude with me. I am not your "little lady" at all, nor do I even have to answer back to you at all. I have not been rude like you are being towards me. I am a new Christian, and do not know every bit of the Bible, but this is my opinion of the Rapture....we all know that no one taught that doctrine at all until that girl had that dream in the early centuries...I can't remember her name-Mary Margaret or something. We all have our theories on when it occurs, and I choose to believe what Jesus says in His own words over someone else's speculations. It would be nice if it does occur before the Tribulation, but it will happen when it will happen, and only God knows when.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[zeke37]

Do you know ANYTHING about Rosh Hashannah? anything at all?

You may think this line of questioning is redundant, I assure you it is not.

For example, are you aware that the "last trump" during Rosh Hashannah is also known as the "Day of the Awakening Blast?"

Rapture-Rosh Hashanah

Keep in mind the culture of the Jews when you read this, this was theirs, nothing needed explained to them. Same as the Wedding Feast, many ppl agree that the Feast symbolizes Christ's return, and well it should since Christ said as much in the gospel.

So, if we look at what is entailed during said Feast, we'll get more hints what to look for, what to expect that ISN'T in scripture, but which the Jews in this time period already knew! (They didn't need "last trump" explained to them, much like most Americans don't need the explanation that "turkey Day"=Thanksgiving!

And before you throw the baby out with the bathwater and say the Feasts mean nothing, you may want to take a look and see that they were fulfilled in ORDER, and that the VERY NEXT FEAST that is yet to be fulfilled, by God HIMSELF, is in fact the Feast of Trumpets.

Food for thought.

Because Cor was written to basically a gentile people, not Jews, your point is moot.

and, as we know what turkey day is,
anyone can know that the last means the last and there are no more after the last.
even the "jews" of that era would understand last means last.


believe it or not, i think the festivals are still important...



so the point is, that the trump in 1Cor15 is the very last one, ever.

1Thes4's trump of God
and the Trump of Mat24/Mar13
and Rev7's trump
might also be the last one ever, told from different points of view,
but for sure those trumps cannot occur after 1Cor15's last trump.

simple.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Another person denying that the last trump is the last trump????? Unbelievable!!! Whether the last trump is the7th trumpet or not there can be no argument whether or not it will be the lst trump or not.

Absolutely not. I am not denying that the last trump is the last trump. I just understand that the last trump is blown on the feast of trumpets.



, and the parable of the fig tree is not the secret piece to some misterous puzzle.

And you know this because?????

Blue me.

 

[realtruth101]

I really hope that I can convince everyone Biblically that the rapture is at the end. Here is everything (that I know of) pertaining to the rapture in the NT. Now someone has kindly showed me some passages from the OT which also talk about the gathering of Israel, but I'll just focus on these. And although the OT passages that talk about the gathering of Israel in the last days... they probably pertain to the church as well... thus both groups.

Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This says a there will be a loud trumpet call, and the angels will gather the elect together (i.e. those chosen for salvation).

Joh 14:1 "Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
Joh 14:4 And you know the way to where I am going."

Now I'm not totally sure how to interpret this verse in relation to the rapture... everything else points to an immediate coming back after we're taken up into the sky, transformed, given in marriage, and come back as part of the Lord's army. Perhaps what the Lord is saying is that He was going to prepare the way, as in die, and set things straight. Also, maybe quite literally based on the context of what He says here, when He comes again, He will gather us together, and thus we will be with Him right there, thus fulfilling "that where I am you may be also"...
1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

This shows that we shall be raised at the last trumpet (i.e. look at Matthew 24 again)

1Th 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Another sound of the trumpet... and also the coming of the Lord. This most definitely is not suggestive of a hidden or secret rapture. And it is true... we will always be forever with the Lord at that point.

2Th 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,
2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Again, the coming of the Lord, and us being gathered together, then at the end of the 2nd verse, Paul references to the day of the Lord and assumes that our gathering is the day of the Lord.

Col 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

The only next appearance of the Lord is the second coming.

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Read this completely: (double u double u double u) solagroup (dot ) org/articles/endtimes/et_0014 (dot) html

Rev 19:6 Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.
Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
Rev 19:8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"-- for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
Rev 19:9 And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These are the true words of God."
Rev 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.
Rev 19:13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

This is the marriage of the bride and it is right as Jesus is coming back. It seems that we will be gathered, and then the heavens are opened and we'll immediately come back as part of His army

Looks pretty straight forward to me, I'm convinced you are correct, or I should say the plain and simple reading of scripture pertaining to the rapture topic is a correct timeline

 

[zeke37]

consider that verse 6's multitude is on earth....the bride that has made herself ready...




in verses 11-14 Jesus leaves heaven with the dead believers of verses1-3.

He comes here to earth with the faithful dead, to gather the Bride that has made herself ready on earth.

 

[Manasseh_]

the last trumpet is the last one...i don't understand what is so hard about that...

no more after the last one....none...not any...nowhere



perhaps there is other scripture that shows the same last trumpet from another perspective...
but there can be no other trumpet after that last one.

of course post tribbers contend this same last trumpet is the 7th trumpet (last one in Rev)
and i agree wholeheartedly.

Right, what's so difficult about understanding the last trump.........

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Ok, there's the verse in question from Paul's letter to believers at Corinth...........now let's see why this is so easy to understand...........

What's the whole context of this chapter......anyone? anyone...........LoL, I feel like I'm taking role call..............

ok, .............context : RESURRECTION

it's the only thing Paul is talking about in the whole chapter and how we receive resurrection.............Paul isn't teaching about the feasts or any other trumpet sounds...........only a resurrection and a change to immortality trumpet.

Let's add more to what Paul taught the Corinthian believers in this same chapter of this letter...............about WHEN.........
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Let's also add what Paul taught Timothy about when................
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

notice that Paul includes ALL believers, both dead and living.........crown of righteousness (eternal life, immortality) AT THAT DAY, HIS APPEARING


We add more knowledge about resurrection with Christ's own words
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Again, what's the context..........resurrection..........and notice the number of times Christ repeats this to those listening to him.

Also Martha believed this from scripture.............

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Then Jesus tells her he's the very one that is the resurrection, the only way to immortality.

Now so far we have the last trumpet, at that day , at his coming, his appearing, on the last day dealing with resurrection............

And next...............Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

once again, a trumpet is sounded and Christ proceeds to first gather his elect.........we obviously know that a large body of the elect died long before his return............so once again, a large number of people will be resurrected and those remaining alive will be changed.

by the way, read a few verses up, he says AFTER TRIBULATION is when he performs this resurrection and change................

next............1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

again read the whole chapter, then notice Paul is sticking to the same context......resurrection, immortality, through Christ...........and obviously the same thing Christ was teaching his apostles in Matt 24's Olivet discourse..............Paul simply gives the same promise that the dead in Christ rise first to immortality then those remaining are once again changed also........the same promise Christ gave his apostles in Matt 24.

and last but not least............Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Now when the seventh trumpet is sounded a proclamation is made by the "great voices in heaven" all nations, all governments are now the possession of God and his CHRIST who is now going to rule............now Christ is given the authority to return, to resurrect, to gather his saints...........

putting all these pertinent verses altogether............We have............

the last trump is sounded...................resurrection
on the last day......................................resurrection
at that day............................................resurrection
at his coming , at his appearing.........resurrection
after tribulation he gathers..............resurrection
when the same 7th trump is sounded giving him all authority, first on the list..................resurrection

amazing how easily it's understood when we go to God and his word for understanding, how it all ties together perfectly, no confusion, no misunderstanding whatsoever.......God's word is perfect

The obvious threat this poses to the pretrib doctrine.............it's all done after tribulation is over.......and that just won't fit into their false premise, ..............so how do they "fix" it..................simple, the last trump is not "really" the last to sound.........so let's suggest it has something to do with the feasts, or let's at least find something else to suggest........otherwise they'll have to concede their doctrine is nothing more than a premise based on lies......

Praise to God and his Christ that we all look forward and hear the sound of that last trump on the last day, after tribulation

 

[zeke37]

the problem is that if a pre tribber accepts that the last trump of 1Cor15, is the last one period,
and we already know that that is when the dead are raised....
that means their favorite pre trib verse set, 1Thes4, has to be post trib,
because the dead are raised then too.


good luck convincing them of that....

remember that God blinds some to truth, and sends them strong delusion
so they will believe a lie....
IMO a prime example.

 

[Truth Files]

"we all know that no one taught that doctrine at all until that girl had that dream in the early centuries...I can't remember her name-Mary Margaret or something"

>Who is we?

>David McPherson is a false teacher and his entire ranting, and those of his mentors who offer this ruse, related to the "Darby/ Macdonald story is a contrived hoax

>He relies upon the ignorance of those who buy his false teaching ..... the Macdonald vision actually has the church going through the tribulation period .... just the opposite of what David is trying use it for

>Better check it out .... the vision can be found on the Internet