Post-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

Luke17:37

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So, does this site consider what is called the PreWrath view to be a Post-Trib view? I consider the PreWrath view to be a properly defined Post-Trib view - properly defined in the sense that it places the rapture of the saints after the Great Tribulation due to antichrist but before the Day of the LORD judgements - but I am not sure how most on this board would categorize it.

Personally, I consider pre-wrath to be a form of mid-tribulation rapture. Matthew 13 says the wicked are gathered for destruction before the righteous are gathered. Therefore, I expect the bowls of wrath to be complete when the Lord returns and gathers the surviving elect.
 
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DingDing

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Personally, I consider pre-wrath to be a form of mid-tribulation rapture. Matthew 13 says the wicked are gathered for destruction before the righteous are gathered. Therefore, I expect the bowls of wrath to be complete when the Lord returns and gathers the surviving elect.

Yes, I agree with what you said, but this gathering of the surviving elect (surviving believers at the end of the 70th Week of Daniel) which occurs after the Day of the LORD judgments is not the same event as the rapture of the church which occurs at the beginning of the Day of the LORD.

As I said (and if you understand the PreWrath position), it is a post-trib view (the rapture of the church happens after the Great Tribulation due to antichrist begins, but before the Day of the LORD judgments which begin at the breaking of the 7th seal). Mid-trib and post-trib are two different things, and PreWrath is definitely not a mid-trib position.

So how much have you read of the PreWrath view?
 
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Luke17:37

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Yes, I agree with what you said, but this gathering of the surviving elect (surviving believers at the end of the 70th Week of Daniel) which occurs after the Day of the LORD judgments is not the same event as the rapture of the church which occurs at the beginning of the Day of the LORD.

As I said (and if you understand the PreWrath position), it is a post-trib view (the rapture of the church happens after the Great Tribulation due to antichrist begins, but before the Day of the LORD judgments which begin at the breaking of the 7th seal). Mid-trib and post-trib are two different things, and PreWrath is definitely not a mid-trib position.

So how much have you read of the PreWrath view?

Hi DingDing,

You asked a question and I answered for myself. I believe in a Post-Tribulation Resurrection/Gathering after the wrath of God is poured out on the wicked. In Matthew 13, the gathering of the wicked to destruction happens before the gathering of the righteous. The view you express, of the gathering of the elect and the rapture of the church being two different events, I don't share. Acts 3:21 says Jesus will stay in heaven until it's time for restoration.
 
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DingDing

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Hi DingDing,

You asked a question and I answered for myself. I believe in a Post-Tribulation Resurrection/Gathering after the wrath of God is poured out on the wicked. In Matthew 13, the gathering of the wicked to destruction happens before the gathering of the righteous. The view you express, of the gathering of the elect and the rapture of the church being two different events, I don't share. Acts 3:21 says Jesus will stay in heaven until it's time for restoration.

I agree with what Acts 3:21 says, but probably not your interpretation of it. Remember, Jesus' first coming was not a brief moment-in-time event, but rather a series of events over a period of time (from the incarnation to His accent). His 2nd coming will also be an extended-time sequence of events. I would not assume His coming is at the very end of Daniel's 70th week. He may very well be doing multiple things over a period of time beginning before the end. There is a rapture of the church, and there is a gathering at the very end.

So who then is that great multitude that appears in heaven between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals in the Book of Revelation? These appear in heaven before God begins His time of judgment.
 
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Luke17:37

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I agree with what Acts 3:21 says, but probably not your interpretation of it. Remember, Jesus' first coming was not a brief moment-in-time event, but rather a series of events over a period of time (from the incarnation to His accent). His 2nd coming will also be an extended-time sequence of events. I would not assume His coming is at the very end of Daniel's 70th week. He may very well be doing multiple things over a period of time beginning before the end. There is a rapture of the church, and there is a gathering at the very end.

So who then is that great multitude that appears in heaven between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals in the Book of Revelation? These appear in heaven before God begins His time of judgment.

Jesus came in the flesh as a baby and stayed on earth until He grew up, died on the cross, rose again, and then ascended after teaching His disciples what the Scriptures say about Him, etc.

I believe the great multitude clothed in white robes in Revelation 7:9-17 are the Tribulation martyrs from Revelation 6:9-11 until the end of the Tribulation. It doesn't say anything about timing of Revelation 7 except that the great multitude comes out of the great Tribulation so they were in it to begin with. And I personally believe the sealing of the 144,000 Israelites happens before the trumpets and bowls start--maybe even earlier.
 
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DingDing

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Jesus came in the flesh as a baby and stayed on earth until He grew up, died on the cross, rose again, and then ascended after teaching His disciples what the Scriptures say about Him, etc.

I believe the great multitude clothed in white robes in Revelation 7:9-17 are the Tribulation martyrs from Revelation 6:9-11 until the end of the Tribulation. It doesn't say anything about timing of Revelation 7 except that the great multitude comes out of the great Tribulation so they were in it to begin with. And I personally believe the sealing of the 144,000 Israelites happens before the trumpets and bowls start--maybe even earlier.
So I think you and I disagree as to the identity of this great multitude. I would suggest that these are the raptured church - rescued just before God begins His judgments. And I have a question: why do you think these are martyrs? I don't see anything in the context to support that conclusion.
 
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Luke17:37

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So I think you and I disagree as to the identity of this great multitude. I would suggest that these are the raptured church - rescued just before God begins His judgments. And I have a question: why do you think these are martyrs? I don't see anything in the context to support that conclusion.

Yes, we disagree. I have highlighted what I see as the most reasonable explanation for the multitude.

Revelation 6:9-11
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Revelation 7:9-17
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

The white robed martyrs are introduced in chapter 6, and it makes sense that they are the same people (in a greater number) in chapter 7.

These who come out of the great tribulation are comforted from experiencing hunger, thirst, sun strike, heat, and tears. That seems more likely to apply to a martyr than a person who is translated without experiencing death.

The 144,000 sealed Israelite believers are sealed so they can survive the judgments coming on the earth and be protected (Revelation 7:3). The great multitude doesn't seem to survive, but they are comforted. Compare that to Revelation 14:12-13.

Can you see there's a big difference between your belief and mine? I believe most of the Church is martyred in the great tribulation but that a few will survive and be gathered when Jesus returns after the wrath is poured on the wicked. Even if you believe in a sixth seal rapture, that's not a post-Tribulation rapture the way I define would define tribulation. The seventh seal is the seven trumpets, and I think the seven bowls happen at the same time as the seven trumpets (I can see a potential relationship). If Christians were going to be translated, why would the 144,000 be left to deal with the trumpets and bowls? The 144,000 are presented as people who follow the Lamb wherever He goes (Revelation 14:4-5), without fault. Since the 144,000 aren't translated, God is able to protect His own from His wrath. (See Revelation 12:13-16.)

Sir, I urge you to consider the possibility of being martyred in the Tribulation. 144,000 is not a lot of people and no one can anticipate being one of them. Being prepared for the possibility could make you much stronger to endure in your faith in the Tribulation.
 
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DingDing

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Sir, I urge you to consider the possibility of being martyred in the Tribulation. ...

Hello,
It is with comments like this that you show that you really do not understand anything about the PreWrath view. I believe that a person should have a basic knowledge of a subject before jumping into a conversation of it. If you would like, I could recommend some reading material so that you can gain a basic knowledge of the PreWrath position. Let me know if you are interested, but until then, I would recommend that you avoid discussing this topic until you have a better understanding of it.

P.S. You may have meant well, and I thank you for your intent, but you simply do not have the understanding yet to discuss the PreWrath view.
 
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Luke17:37

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Hello,
It is with comments like this that you show that you really do not understand anything about the PreWrath view. I believe that a person should have a basic knowledge of a subject before jumping into a conversation of it. If you would like, I could recommend some reading material so that you can gain a basic knowledge of the PreWrath position. Let me know if you are interested, but until then, I would recommend that you avoid discussing this topic until you have a better understanding of it.

P.S. You may have meant well, and I thank you for your intent, but you simply do not have the understanding yet to discuss the PreWrath view.

You are condescending. I ignored it the first time. I understand the pre-wrath view perfectly well but I don't believe it. You don't understand that you're in a post-tribulation room and what I believe is a post-tribulation resurrection gathering.
 
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DingDing

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You are condescending. I ignored it the first time. I understand the pre-wrath view perfectly well but I don't believe it. You don't understand that you're in a post-tribulation room and what I believe is a post-tribulation resurrection gathering.

I'm sorry, but claim as you do, your posts give away the fact that you do not understand the PreWrath view. That is the plain truth. I can only offer to direct you to information.
 
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Luke17:37

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I'm sorry, but claim as you do, your posts give away the fact that you do not understand the PreWrath view. That is the plain truth. I can only offer to direct you to information.

Maybe you should start your own Pre-Wrath Rapture Safe House.
 
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DingDing

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Maybe you should start your own Pre-Wrath Rapture Safe House.
You know, as defined in the OP (which is a very general statement, by the way), the PreWrath position is a Post-trib position (just perhaps not the traditional one). Perhaps you should take some time to study this position. I can give you some recommended reads, if you are willing. But so far you show no understanding, nor any willingness to learn. It is hard to help someone who already thinks they know something, but actually doesn't. Your statements have made it very clear that you don't know what the PreWrath position is about, and you are coming across as being totally unwilling to learn about it. Let me know when you are willing to be more reasonable, and perhaps then we can talk.
 
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Luke17:37

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You know, as defined in the OP (which is a very general statement, by the way), the PreWrath position is a Post-trib position (just perhaps not the traditional one). Perhaps you should take some time to study this position. I can give you some recommended reads, if you are willing. But so far you show no understanding, nor any willingness to learn. It is hard to help someone who already thinks they know something, but actually doesn't. Your statements have made it very clear that you don't know what the PreWrath position is about, and you are coming across as being totally unwilling to learn about it. Let me know when you are willing to be more reasonable, and perhaps then we can talk.

It seems like my position (post-tribulation resurrection-gathering which is actual post-tribulation) is causing you some discomfort and so you're throwing condescension my way. Your first question was:

So, does this site consider what is called the PreWrath view to be a Post-Trib view?

And I said no, I don't. You asked.

Why is pre-wrath important to you?

Where do you think the Bible teaches pre-wrath?
 
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DingDing

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It seems like my position (post-tribulation resurrection-gathering which is actual post-tribulation) is causing you some discomfort and so you're throwing condescension my way. Your first question was:

No discomfort here, other than you have misrepresented the PreWrath position with more than one comment, which is why I claim you do not really understand it. It is a post-tribulational view, but the terms are likely defined differently than what you are thinking of.

Then I said,"So, does this site consider what is called the PreWrath view to be a Post-Trib view?" To which you said,

And I said no, I don't. You asked.

Why is pre-wrath important to you?

Where do you think the Bible teaches pre-wrath?

So first, if you do not understand a view - and I claim you do not - then you are not in a position to judge whether or not it is a post-tribulational view. So why is PreWrath important? Because I think that it is what the bible teaches. Where do I see it? Everywhere. I recommend reading Marvin Rosenthal's book, The PreWrath Rapture of the Church. He was a very well-known pre-trib teacher who changed his view. He claims, and I agree, that this view combines the strength of all the other views while discarding their weaknesses. In the end, this view says that the church will go through the Great Tribulation at the hands of antichrist, but that before Daniel's 70th week is over, that God will rapture (rescue) His persecuted saints, and then He will begin to deal His Day of the LORD judgments (trumpets and bowls) upon an evil world. Even if you were to not accept this position, I would recommend reading the book.
 
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Luke17:37

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No discomfort here, other than you have misrepresented the PreWrath position with more than one comment, which is why I claim you do not really understand it. It is a post-tribulational view, but the terms are likely defined differently than what you are thinking of.

Then I said,"So, does this site consider what is called the PreWrath view to be a Post-Trib view?" To which you said,



So first, if you do not understand a view - and I claim you do not - then you are not in a position to judge whether or not it is a post-tribulational view. So why is PreWrath important? Because I think that it is what the bible teaches. Where do I see it? Everywhere. I recommend reading Marvin Rosenthal's book, The PreWrath Rapture of the Church. He was a very well-known pre-trib teacher who changed his view. He claims, and I agree, that this view combines the strength of all the other views while discarding their weaknesses. In the end, this view says that the church will go through the Great Tribulation at the hands of antichrist, but that before Daniel's 70th week is over, that God will rapture (rescue) His persecuted saints, and then He will begin to deal His Day of the LORD judgments (trumpets and bowls) upon an evil world. Even if you were to not accept this position, I would recommend reading the book.

I assure you, this is not a matter of misunderstanding; this is simply a matter of disagreement. Your continual assertion that I "don't understand pre-wrath" just makes you rude. There's no point in us talking if you can't respect the fact that I don't agree with you.

If you want to start a thread to debate Scriptural basis for a Pre-Wrath Rapture, I'm up for that. But if you can't disagree without being condescending, I'll just leave you to your own opinions.
 
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Lily76_

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Hi am Lily i thought id say hi and start posting here
i hope its ok for me to post in here i dont know very much about the rapture or very much of the bible
i was born in to a Catholic family but i was abused from a very young age by friends of the family one of them being a priest my sister was also abused
because of the trauma i cant remember anything they taught at school about the bible so i have started now to learn what the bible says and i have read revelations part of the bible once i kinda see my self as a new Christian because what had happened to me
I hope its ok that i post here
i hoping to learn from here and the rest of the forums

Thank you
 
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Luke17:37

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Hi am Lily i thought id say hi and start posting here
i hope its ok for me to post in here i dont know very much about the rapture or very much of the bible
i was born in to a Catholic family but i was abused from a very young age by friends of the family one of them being a priest my sister was also abused
because of the trauma i cant remember anything they taught at school about the bible so i have started now to learn what the bible says and i have read revelations part of the bible once i kinda see my self as a new Christian because what had happened to me
I hope its ok that i post here
i hoping to learn from here and the rest of the forums

Thank you

Hi Lily. I'm sorry about what happened to you and your sister. May the Lord teach you His Word and heal you.

Have you read Genesis (especially the first 11 chapters), John, and Romans? I recommend starting there to get a good foundation about the gospel and why Jesus came. If you like, you can order the book Begin. The above Scriptures are in it, and a few others, and some other things about the message the of Bible.

https://answersingenesis.org/store/product/begin/?sku=10-4-371

I highly recommend Answers in Genesis (who wrote the book). They will help you understand how you can believe and trust the Bible to be true in a world where many (even Christians) contest it in one way or another.

God bless.
 
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zeke37

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Hi all.... I've been gone from this forum for a while... but I think I'll start coming back.
I'm a hard line post tribber for 10 years now, but perhaps we need to better define what happens at the end, right here, instead of arguing over when we are raptured like I've been reading with the pre wrath battle. I think it all depends on what you see as God's wrath, since we know that we are protected from it. After considering some new, to me, material, I am looking for opinions please :)

There's 3 woes... the last 3 trumps

But before those woes, IMO there's the rise of the political world wide beast, Babylon, and IMO that's the first 3.5 years.

Woe 1
The Abyss is opened and the supernatural armies such as giants, cyclops, minotaurs, dragons and other very characters from supposed mythology come out. They are the children of fallen angels and human women, abominations that have been locked away in the Abyss/Pit since Noah's flood, and now at the 5th trump the Abyss/Pit is opened and they flow out. If it's like the days of Noah as Christ teaches in Mat24, then we might be in trouble for 5 months as that is how long the storm brewed in the flood of Noah's day. Rev9 states 5 months too as the length of time of that first woe.

The elect is definitely here for that one, as we are told that this army cannot hurt the ones with the seal of God... they can only hurt the rest, torment them 5 months, but not kill them.

Woe 2
4 Angels are released and 1/3 of mankind dies. Billions of people die. The two witnesses prophesy 3.5 years and are killed 3 days before the end end of the woe, at the 7th trump when Christ returns.

So witnesses are still here during this time too. 2 Candlesticks still are lit and getting oil in Rev2-3's description of the 7 churches, and we know from Rev1 that the menorah indeed represents the churches. So, IMO we are seeing at least the candlestick part of the two witnesses as the 2 faithful churches, Smyrna and Philadelphia, what ever that means to you. As for the two olive trees... I welcome your opinions.

Rev11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Woe 3
The return of Christ and His armies. There just doesn't seem to be any other time when we could be gathered but when we see Him Coming. The bowls of wrath are poured out. Maybe I'm wrong, but if so please show me my error.
 
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So, does this site consider what is called the PreWrath view to be a Post-Trib view? I consider the PreWrath view to be a properly defined Post-Trib view - properly defined in the sense that it places the rapture of the saints after the Great Tribulation due to antichrist but before the Day of the LORD judgements - but I am not sure how most on this board would categorize it.

Six of one and half a dozen of the other.
 
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Personally, I consider pre-wrath to be a form of mid-tribulation rapture. Matthew 13 says the wicked are gathered for destruction before the righteous are gathered. Therefore, I expect the bowls of wrath to be complete when the Lord returns and gathers the surviving elect.

A post wrath rapture? Or are you suggesting that there will be a post-trib. pre-wrath rapture (or gathering), and then another gathering after the bowls of wrath just in case anyone repented during that time?
 
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