Pope: on animals

[ebia]

I think anyone with a heart who knows about the meat industry feels bad about eating meat... not that we want to stop eating meat, but that we want to change the industry. If I had the money, I would buy only free range grass fed beef.

How can the industry change if the customer isn't prepared to pay the cost?

 

[Open Heart]

How can the industry change if the customer isn't prepared to pay the cost?

Legislation. That's how we got California chicken farmers to start treating their chickens right. Free range eggs are the only eggs you can buy in California now.

 

[ebia]

Legislation.

If it results in real change it still pushes costs up which pushes price up.

(Though often it doesn't produce much real change - companies find ways to comply with the legislation without actually doing much).

 

[Open Heart]

If it results in real change it still pushes costs up which pushes price up.

It all pans out. The increased production cost raises the cost, which lowers the demand, which then lowers the cost. Eventually you find a new equilibrium. Cage free eggs are much more expensive, so I buy fewer eggs. (I've also stopped buying ice, donuts, and fudgesicles so that I can buy more eggs. ) The point is, if you wait for people to voluntarily pay the higher price for more humane food, you'll wait forever. Sometimes you can go the Republican route, and sometimes you are forced to go the Democratic route. I despise laws. But sometimes they are necessary.

 

[ebia]

It all pans out. The increased production cost raises the cost, which lowers the demand, which then lowers the cost. Eventually you find a new equilibrium. Cage free eggs are much more expensive, so I buy fewer eggs. (I've also stopped buying ice, donuts, and fudgesicles so that I can buy more eggs. ) The point is, if you wait for people to voluntarily pay the higher price for more humane food, you'll wait forever. Sometimes you can go the Republican route, and sometimes you are forced to go the Democratic route. I despise laws. But sometimes they are necessary.

I don't have a problem with legislating it - providing the regulations are well designed (too often they push up the paperwork compliance costs which push small operators out of business).

It's just that you implied earlier you personally weren't able to pay the higher costs.

 

[Open Heart]

It's just that you implied earlier you personally weren't able to pay the higher costs.

I can't. I said I eat fewer eggs, and I've had to cut down on other things to afford the eggs that I do buy. With regards to meat, I am still in favor of legislation, but I do worry that doing without meat will cause health problems for me. I've basically cut out all the frills from my food budget. In a world where cattle are treated humanely, I will lose badly.

At least for the first year. After that I'll have finished my new training and can get off of disability.

But I'm sure there are other poor people who are going to stay poor for various reasons. It's a problem of poverty that needs to be addressed. You can't solve every problem with one piece of legislation. Right now the wage disparity between the rich and the poor is a far bigger issue on the table than animals rights. It's called human rights.

 

[ebia]

I can't. I said I eat fewer eggs, and I've had to cut down on other things to afford the eggs that I do buy. With regards to meat, I am still in favor of legislation, but I do worry that doing without meat will cause health problems for me. I've basically cut out all the frills from my food budget. In a world where cattle are treated humanely, I will lose badly.

Ok

Unless you also subsidize the meat. Don't we do that already?????

which causes a whole lot of other moral problems.

 

[Open Heart]

Regarding subsidizing ethical meat products

which causes a whole lot of other moral problems.

Such as?

 

[ebia]

Regarding subsidizing ethical meat products Such as?

When the big powerful trading blocks like the US and the EU work the system to subsidise some of their own production while insisting on free trade where it suits them, that has unfair and detrimental knock on effects for producers in other countries.

 

[Open Heart]

When the big powerful trading blocks like the US and the EU work the system to subsidise some of their own production while insisting on free trade where it suits them, that has unfair and detrimental knock on effects for producers in other countries.

I guess I don't feel obligated to purchase anything from another country. I think, for example, that we should place tariffs on products where Americans are out of work in those same industries.

 

[ebia]

I guess I don't feel obligated to purchase anything from another country. I think, for example, that we should place tariffs on products where Americans are out of work in those same industries.

I'm not suggesting you personally must buy from anywhere in particular.

But it's hardly justice to use economic might to benefit, say, american farmers at the expense of, let's say, Argentinian farmers by protecting some of your own industries while disallowing others to protect theirs.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Legislation. That's how we got California chicken farmers to start treating their chickens right. Free range eggs are the only eggs you can buy in California now.

Speaking of chickens [and i used to own a few - love them]
All the eggs sold around here are from local farmers. Of which are free range....as free as any chicken can have.

We have to understand something - chickens must be penned up - in a decent sized lot of course - but if they are not they are highly prone to being killed as prey. Everything from skunk - rats - coons - coyotes - fishers [you name it] love to eat chicken.

Free range chicks do best as far as getting a variety of foods to help strengthen their shells - and nutrients of their eggs.
And chicks are like pigs - they eat anything or everything.

 

[Open Heart]

But it's hardly justice to use economic might to benefit, say, american farmers at the expense of, let's say, Argentinian farmers by protecting some of your own industries while disallowing others to protect theirs.

In general, I agree with you. However, I just believe in taking care of our people at home before taking care of others. I shouldn't be giving hundreds of dollars to Doctors without Borders (I cause I really support) if my own brother can't pay his rent. It is up to Argentina to mend its own economic problems, ultimately. We can, if we have room in our budget, send aid to Argentina if it is hurting that badly. Such aid would still favor eco-friendly, humane meat.

 

[fat wee robin]

I think anyone with a heart who knows about the meat industry feels bad about eating meat... not that we want to stop eating meat, but that we want to change the industry. If I had the money, I would buy only free range grass fed beef. I even went vegetarian for several years, until I became diabetic from all the extra carbs I was eating. They don't tell you how dangerous rice and pasta can be. At any rate, now I'm stuck with a post surgery anemia that puts me in the hospital for transfusions, and which requires lots of iron supplements and a VERY high protein diet. I would be as fat as a cow if I tried to eat all that protein from non-meat sources. So life is about making tough choices.

Very similiar to me as I had tried to be vegetarian but became ill and needed lots of protein .After months of being good, I was in a restaurant with some family,and they were all eating meat .It was a bio restaurant ,and I said, it was bad to eat animals and one of my brothers said ,well if you don't eat them they will have no life purpose .So now I eat a little bio bred cow of free run bio chicken .

 

[Open Heart]

well if you don't eat them they will have no life purpose .

Oh I can't agree with that. Animals have intrinsic worth simply by being God's creation. That's why it is wrong to abuse them.

 

[stray bullet]

Legislation. That's how we got California chicken farmers to start treating their chickens right. Free range eggs are the only eggs you can buy in California now.

That's great. I am sure the families that cannot afford to pay their food bills really appreciate that.

 

[stray bullet]

Oh I can't agree with that. Animals have intrinsic worth simply by being God's creation. That's why it is wrong to abuse them.

No, that's not why it is wrong to abuse animals.

Abusing animals is wrong because of what it does to the human person.

 

[Open Heart]

That's great. I am sure the families that cannot afford to pay their food bills really appreciate that.

I am one such family that is biting the bullet in the grocery stores. (It seems like everything is going up except my income.) I'm still glad that the eggs I use are free range. I don't have to feel guilty.

 

[Open Heart]

Abusing animals is wrong because of what it does to the human person.

Oh brother.

 

[stray bullet]

I am one such family that is biting the bullet in the grocery stores. (It seems like everything is going up except my income.) I'm still glad that the eggs I use are free range. I don't have to feel guilty.

That's fine, please let the people behind you know how making their food more expensive makes you feel better.