Pope Francis on Fundamentalist Catholics

Martinius

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I found this in a transcript of the interview Pope Francis had with journalists on his flight back from Africa. It provides an interesting perspective on some of those who appear to be the most "gung-ho" Catholics.

Fundamentalism is a sickness that exists in all religions. We Catholics have some, not just some, so many, who believe that they have the absolute truth and they move forward with calumnies, with defamation and they hurt (people), they hurt. And, I say this because it's my Church, also us, all of us. It must be combatted. Religious fundamentalism isn't religious. Why? Because God is lacking. It's idolatrous, as money is idolatrous.

Comments or thoughts?

http://www.romereports.com/2015/11/...ope-s-press-conference-aboard-the-papal-plane
 
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Athanasias

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LivingWordUnity

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In the article linked in the OP, Pope Francis mentions fundamentalists in the context of being asked what he thinks about Islam. And then he starts talking about how there have been wars between religions. But nowhere does "fundamentalist Catholics" ever appear in the transcript of what he said. A person doesn't have to be a fundamentalist to be involved in a war. In fact, there is no culture of people in human history who have not been involved in a war at one time or another. War is the reality of being a human being and living in this fallen world.

“You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.” - Leon Trotsky

More people were killed in war in the 20th century than in any century before, and those 20th century wars were not inspired by religion, at least not by Christianity. Many wars were fought by atheist regimes that wanted to stomp out Christianity. Hitler was raised Catholic, but he fell away from it and was condemned by Pope Pius XI for promoting a national religion.

"None but superficial minds could stumble into concepts of a national God, of a national religion; or attempt to lock within the frontiers of a single people, within the narrow limits of a single race, God, the Creator of the universe, King and Legislator of all nations before whose immensity they are 'as a drop of a bucket' (Isaiah xI, 15)." - Mit Brennender Sorge (March 14, 1937)

Christian fundamentalism is an extreme form of Protestantism, which arose from a protest against Catholicism. So it makes no sense to call a Catholic a fundamentalist. CFs has a Christian fundamentalist section, and they don't consider any of us Catholics to be one of them since we don't believe in Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide.
 
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Martinius

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In the article linked in the OP, Pope Francis mentions fundamentalists in the context of being asked what he thinks about Islam. And then he starts talking about how there have been wars between religions. But nowhere does "fundamentalist Catholics" ever appear in the transcript of what he said...

Christian fundamentalism is an extreme form of Protestantism, which arose from a protest against Catholicism. So it makes no sense to call a Catholic a fundamentalist. CFs has a Christian fundamentalist section, and they don't consider any of us Catholics to be one of them since we don't believe in Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide.
It may make no sense to you to call any Catholics fundamentalists, but the Pope certainly does. He says it quite clearly in response to the fourth question about "religious fundamentalism". You may be looking at a response to a different question. Read the part I quote again, or the entire response in that section. Pope Francis says that there are is a Catholic fundamentalism that he calls a "sickness" that "must be combatted". There is nothing said in that section about war, Islam or any other specific religion, except for Catholicism.

You may also be confusing the common idea of Protestant fundamentalism with what the Pope is referring to, which is a type of "fundamentalism" that he says exists in every religion.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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It may make no sense to you to call any Catholics fundamentalists, but the Pope certainly does. He says it quite clearly in response to the fourth question about "religious fundamentalism". You may be looking at a response to a different question. Read the part I quote again, or the entire response in that section. Pope Francis says that there are is a Catholic fundamentalism that he calls a "sickness" that "must be combatted". There is nothing said in that section about war, Islam or any other specific religion, except for Catholicism.

You may also be confusing the common idea of Protestant fundamentalism with what the Pope is referring to, which is a type of "fundamentalism" that he says exists in every religion.
I don't know where you got that quote, but it's not contained in the text that you provided a link to. If you want to know how Christian fundamentalism is defined, take a look at the Fundamentalist Christians sub-forum on this website. Here's an excerpt from their statement of beliefs (added emphasis):
A Fundamentalist Christian is a born again believer in Lord Jesus Christ who:
  1. Maintains an immovable allegiance to the inerrant, infallible, and verbally Inspired Bible;
  2. Believes whatever the Bible says is so;
  3. Judges all things by the Bible, and is judged only by the Bible, aka - "Sola Scriptura";
So Catholics are clearly disqualified from being considered fundamentalists.

Source:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/fundamentalist-christians-statement-of-purpose.7396152/
 
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Martinius

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I am thinking that your computer or something is misdirecting you. The link goes to a site called "Rome Reports" which has the complete text of the interview. Scroll to the fourth question which starts with "Religious fundamentalism is threatening the whole planet..." The excerpt I quoted is found in the Pope's response. I also found the same transcript at other sites, including the National Catholic Register, Catholic News Agency and Catholic World Report, some with info on who asked the question. I looked at a few sources to see if they were in agreement on the text.

The Pope clearly says fundamentalism (of the type he is referencing) occurs in every religion, and then goes on to say how harmful the Catholic version is.
 
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Martinius

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mark46

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Philippine De Saint-Pierre, KTO (France): Holiness, good afternoon, you paid homage to the platform created by the archbishop, the imam and the pastor of Bangui. Today more than ever, we know that fundamentalism threatens the entire planet. We also saw this in Paris. Before this danger, do you think that religious leaders should intervene more in the political field? (Pope Francis asks for clarification) ...the religious “dignitaries,” bishops and imams?

Pope Francis: “To intervene in the political field.” If that means to make politics, no. Whoever is a priest, pastor, imam, rabbi, this is his vocation, but they make a “live politics” by preaching values. True values. And one of the greatest values is the fraternity among us. We are all children of God. We have the same father. In this sense, we have to make politics of unity, reconciliation. A word that I don’t like, but I have to use it is “tolerance.” But, not only tolerance, co-existence, friendship. That’s how it is. Fundamentalism is a sickness that exists in all religions. We Catholics have some, not just some, so many, who believe they have the absolute truth and they move forward with calumnies, with defamation and they hurt (people), they hurt. And, I say this because it’s my Church, also us, all of us. It must be combatted. Religious fundamentalism isn’t religious. Why? Because God is lacking. It’s idolatrous, as money is idolatrous. Making politics in the sense of convincing these people who have this tendency is a politics that we religious leaders must make, but fundamentalism that ends up always in tragedy or in crime, in a bad thing comes about in all religions a little bit.
 
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mark46

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I don't know where you got that quote, but it's not contained in the text that you provided a link to. If you want to know how Christian fundamentalism is defined, take a look at the Fundamentalist Christians sub-forum on this website. Here's an excerpt from their statement of beliefs (added emphasis):So Catholics are clearly disqualified from being considered fundamentalists.

Source:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/fundamentalist-christians-statement-of-purpose.7396152/
You can continue to disagree with the pope if you wish.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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You can continue to disagree with the pope if you wish.
"We Catholics have some, not just some, so many, who believe they have the absolute truth and they move forward with calumnies, with defamation and they hurt (people), they hurt." - Pope Francis (in-flight interview from Africa to Rome)

The first consideration to make is that he's speaking off-the-cuff in an interview, and the second is whether or not the translation is accurate. The Catholic Church has the fullness of truth. That means that our Church has the absolute truth. That's always been what the Catholic Church has taught. So I'm going to assume that Pope Francis likely meant that other religious traditions have some truth and that there are some Catholics who don't show charity toward non-Catholics. Here's something that the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about it:

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."​
 
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Martinius

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"We Catholics have some, not just some, so many, who believe they have the absolute truth and they move forward with calumnies, with defamation and they hurt (people), they hurt." - Pope Francis (in-flight interview from Africa to Rome)

The first consideration to make is that he's speaking off-the-cuff in an interview, and the second is whether or not the translation is accurate. The Catholic Church has the fullness of truth. That means that our Church has the absolute truth. That's always been what the Catholic Church has taught. So I'm going to assume that Pope Francis likely meant that other religious traditions have some truth and that there are some Catholics who don't show charity toward non-Catholics...
I don't think we have to speculate on what the Pope "meant", as it is quite clear. I have not seen a correction of the transcript, which is the same from several sources. This was a planned interview with reporters on the flight from Africa, so the Pope was prepared for it and was not caught unprepared. He did not seem to vacillate in his comments, and went right to the point.

I think your assumption about what the Pope "meant" is clearly wrong. He was talking about fundamentalist Catholics attacking and hurting other Catholics. These are very forceful comments, coming from someone who has personally experienced the defamation he is taking about. And the kicker to me is when Francis changes "some" to "so many", an amazing public admission of the cancer in the Church that is spreading and harming our faith.

Sorry, but one cannot really downplay what Francis said, or explain it away.

Note: I found the transcript of the interview on the Vatican website, in the section on the trip to Africa. It is the last document in the material. The text appears to agree with the media transcripts,with a few word changes, such as replacing "calumny" with "slander". The meaning and intensity of the comments are the same as what has been quoted here.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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I think your assumption about what the Pope "meant" is clearly wrong. He was talking about fundamentalist Catholics attacking and hurting other Catholics. These are very forceful comments, coming from someone who has personally experienced the defamation he is taking about. And the kicker to me is when Francis changes "some" to "so many", an amazing public admission of the cancer in the Church that is spreading and harming our faith.
Can you provide a specific example of either a person or a website for what is meant by a "fundamentalist Catholic"? Also, can you clarify how this term is defined? Is the definition of a "fundamentalist Catholic" a Catholic who has offended someone?
 
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Martinius

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Can you provide a specific example of either a person or a website for what is meant by a "fundamentalist Catholic"? Also, can you clarify how this term is defined? Is the definition of a "fundamentalist Catholic" a Catholic who has offended someone?
You ask an excellent question. I think the idea of "fundamentalist" that you are thinking of relates to American Protestantism, and we should likely indicate it by using the upper case, so "Fundamentalism". The fundamentalism (lower case) that the Pope is talking about is not the Protestant (upper case) variety, but a general term that can be applied to people of any faith. I have done some searches and can't find one place where Pope Francis defines it, but in his usage in talks and interviews it appears that the meaning is assumed to be understood.

From what I can find so far, and from my readings of various Pope Francis documents, the term "fundamentalism" refers to people who are militant in their orthodoxy, who see themselves as the great defenders of the faith and who say we must strictly adhere to certain rules, ideas or beliefs, as THEY understand and interpret them. In addition, some fundamentalists believe their way is the only way to God, to salvation, and that anyone else, even members of their own faith, who do not follow their strict "way" are infidels, heretics, etc.

Pope Francis has brought up this fundamentalism, which he says exists in all religions, in several talks and documents, including his Apostolic Exhortation, Evangelii Gaudium. In his talk before the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue in November, 2013, the Pope uses words very similar to his response to the question during the flight back from Africa. In that talk he mentions the "tragedy of narrow mindedness". In other documents and talks he mentions the challenges of fundamentalism, which "demeans the dignity of every man and woman and exploits religion". A search on the Vatican website shows that both Popes JPII and Benedict XVI had brought up the problem of religious fundamentalism (lower case) in some of their speeches and writings.

In my view, the fundamentalism that exists in the Catholic church is with those who expect every Catholic to think like they do, because they see their view as the only correct one. Anyone deviating from their way of thinking, talking, and acting is considered at least a "cafeteria Catholic", and maybe a heretic or apostate. And some of those "fundamentalists" viciously attack those not completely on their side. One can see that easily by what some of these Catholic fundamentalists have posted on their websites and forums, and by what the Pope has said several times.

The Catholic fundamentalist in general seems to view anything proclaimed outside the period from the Council of Trent to the time of Pope Pius IX to be suspect, ignoring the 15 centuries before Trent and most of what has occurred in the past 150 years. More "liberal" fundamentalists are okay with most of what the Popes have done up to Pius XII, but not much since (think SSPX schism). Popes JPII and Benedict XVI were sometimes okay with Catholic fundamentalists, but even some of their words and behaviors were suspect (such as praying with Muslims and Hindus). This view means, of course, ignoring most of what has been done by the Magisterium from Vatican II on. The fundamentalists do not like change, while forgetting all the changes that occurred in the fifteen hundred years prior to Trent, the changes Trent itself made, and how the Church as evolved since, especially in the past 50 or so years.

The big problem, which I believe the Pope is referring to, is the attitude of some of those in the hierarchy, including the Curia. Hence the tough talks he gave to the Curia in December of 2014 and 2015, and how he has set up commissions and synods to perform some tasks previously done by the Curia. As we have seen from several prime examples, many in the hierarchy are self-absorbed, concerned much more with position, power and pomp than they are with advancing the Gospel and the needs of all the Church. They are the opposite of what Jesus commanded his Apostles to be, that is servants to all. They hurt the Church in several ways, one of which is to create divisiveness within the faith, both among the hierarchy and the faithful. For some strange reason, they see this as doing the will of God.

Just as we have in our political system (it may surprise many younger people to know that there were once liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats), our Catholic faith has become more polarized by this. It may not be as apparent to most of us on the parish level, but it clearly exists.
 
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Fundamentalism is more broadly used now days that just referring to a particular way of being Protestant.

I spent some time in the Orthodox church and I know first hand that fundamentalism is alive and well there, sadly. It doesn't surprise me at all that folks can recognize fundamentalism within the Roman Catholic church. Fundamentalism, as a term used in this sense, has less to do with what you believe, and more to do with how you believe it.

And the Pope is right. Fundamentalism is a horrible sickness and it is idolatry.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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as THEY understand and interpret them.
Your emphasis here more fittingly describes someone who is anti-traditional and follows their own personal creed. Being traditional means relying on the interpretation of the Church rather than relying on one's own personal interpretation.
 
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Martinius

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Your emphasis here more fittingly describes someone who is anti-traditional and follows their own personal creed. Being traditional means relying on the interpretation of the Church rather than relying on one's own personal interpretation.
Not in the context of the words you quoted. There are many examples of "traditional" Catholics interpreting statements and teachings in a way that is not in agreement with the Church's position. Often they follow an interpretation or teaching of the past rather than a current one. We can see that in many threads on the OBOB forum.

The fundamentalism we see in the Church is centered around an exclusivist and elitist attitude that creates division. The fundamentalists see themselves as true defenders of the faith, and place more value on orthodox thinking (as they define it) rather than on living the Gospel. This is what our Pope points out frequently.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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Not in the context of the words you quoted. There are many examples of "traditional" Catholics interpreting statements and teachings in a way that is not in agreement with the Church's position. Often they follow an interpretation or teaching of the past rather than a current one. We can see that in many threads on the OBOB forum.

The fundamentalism we see in the Church is centered around an exclusivist and elitist attitude that creates division. The fundamentalists see themselves as true defenders of the faith, and place more value on orthodox thinking (as they define it) rather than on living the Gospel. This is what our Pope points out frequently.
The Catholic Church still teaches that the moral truths don't change and that the doctrines of the faith remain essentially the same. For example, Pope Francis has not changed the Church's teaching on abortion, and he has maintained that marriage is between one man and one woman. However, the Church can change disciplines. What specific teaching are you talking about? And who specifically are you talking about?
 
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LivingWordUnity

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In a homily, Pope Francis reportedly said:

“We would do well to think about what happened in the Book of Maccabees about what happened step by step, before we decide to follow an ‘adolescent progressivism’ and go along with what everyone is doing. We would also do well to ponder the consequences of their infidelity, to think about the ‘death sentences, the human sacrifices’ which followed thereafter. Do you think there are no human sacrifices today? There are many, many of them. And there are laws that protect them.” (Source)
.
 
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