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Pope Francis Invites Founder of Liberation Theology to the Vatican

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Fantine, Sep 9, 2013.

  1. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote

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    Liberation theology finds new welcome in Pope Francis' Vatican | Religion News Service

    where he is expected to find a far warmer welcome than he would have from Popes John Paul or Benedict.

    Not that I don't understand where Pope John Paul was coming from, thanks to reading "The Pontiff in Winter." Emotionally scarred by his experience with Communism, he was convinced that a strong, stable government under a ruthless, cruel, anti-human rights dictator was preferable to revolution by the people--so fearful was he of Communism.

    Our own government kept a lot of evil dictators in power, too--Diem in Vietnam, the Shah of Iran, etc.

    Pope Francis sees the whole picture--and how shameful it has been that tyrants have been supported by the US and the Vatican, however tacitly.
     
  2. AvilaSurfer

    AvilaSurfer Active Member

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    There's a huge difference between what John Paul II did (travel to Poland, preach peace and freedom) and what some Liberation Theologians do (preach taking up arms and fighting). I think Pope Francis is calling Gutierrez to Rome to insure he knows the Pontiff's anti-war, anti-violent revolution stance. We'll see.
     
  3. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote

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    When Archbishop Oscar Romero was assassinated in El Salvador, he was saying Mass.

    There have been many 'revolutions' that have been won by passive resistance--our own civil rights movement, South Africa, India.

    But Pope Francis wants us to support the poor and vulnerable--and bishops and priests can't do that while they're dining with dictators.
     
  4. AvilaSurfer

    AvilaSurfer Active Member

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    As usual, you skirted he issue. But that's OK. Like I said, we'll see.
     
  5. MKJ

    MKJ Contributor

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    Well, the real problem with Liberation Theology is the theology - it accepts certain Marxist metaphysical principles (as much as Marx can be said to have metaphysical principles) about the revelation of history which are not compatible with Christianity.
     
  6. Virgil the Roman

    Virgil the Roman Traditional Catholic

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    Liberation Theology is a condemned heresy. It replace Christ, the Gospel, and true loving-compassion and charity for the poor with Marxism. It merely retains a thin veneer of Christianity with the essence or 'substance' replaced with Far-Leftist and Marxist principles. It is akin to grabbing a bottle of pills, emptying it save for one or two pills; then refilling the bottle full of pills of another substance. It may retain some small part of the prior essence (one or two pieces); however, largely it has been supplanted and usurped by entirely different substance and underlying principles altogether.
     
  7. TheOtherHockeyMom

    TheOtherHockeyMom Contributor

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    I've got a copy of The Theology of Liberation on my bookshelf, but it's still on the 'to read' list. Anyone here read it?
     
  8. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    and he was right to be fearful of violent Socialists, after seeing what National Socialists have done in Germany and what Marxist Socialists have done in Russia, China, Vietnam, Cambodia
    I would assume that every rational person would have a fear of Socialists
    just looking back at all the murder and rape that Socialist armies have done

    the human rights abuses and abject poverty in Cuba
    the guerilla warfare carried out in South America by Socialists
     
  9. MikeK

    MikeK The dress is blue and black.

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    The Nazis were not socialists. Socialism is not compatible with Nazism and among the greatest targets of Nazi hate were socialists/communists
     
  10. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    the Nazi Party was the "National Socialist German Workers' Party"
    that was the real name of the party

    people forget that they used the old Socialist weapon of class envy to stoke the fires of anti-Semitism
    the Nazi party was also anti-democracy and anti-bourgeoisie

    now I am not saying that the National Socialists of Germany were identical to the Stalinist Socialists of Russia

    the Stalinist/Marxist variety focus more on class struggle while the National Socialists were obsessed with Nationalism and Racism (a doctrine of Blood and Soil)
    but they were both Statists, who believed in the superiority of the State over the individual, both had a hatred of Capitalism, both were of a Revolutionary character, and both killed millions of people.
    It is only because of the Leftist academics in the USA that the Nazi party is not commonly known to be a form of Socialism

    if you want to see more of the racist character of Socialism you might want to look at some of the tactics used by Chairman Mao
     
  11. MikeK

    MikeK The dress is blue and black.

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    It was, but they were not socialists. How can a country call itself socialist when they call Marx a criminal and do not adopt a collectivist stance?

    The Nazi party really wasn't remarkably anti-democracy and certainly not anti-burggeoisie. The bourgeoisie, like the Krupps, faired quite well under Nazism.

    now I am not saying that the National Socialists of Germany were identical to the Stalinist Socialists of Russia

    They aren't considered to be socialists by anyone who knows anything about socialism. They were considered gravely evil by American socialists even in the early and mid 1930s, when the rest of America thought they were just dandy. The Nazi government cannot be said to have had a hatred of capitalism. They embraced capitalism openly and often allowed succesful industry to run unhindered, even in wartime.

    That's about like saying that black slavery in the US reveals the racist character of capitalism. China has moved away from many of Mao's evils, and the US has moved away from much of our racist past.
     
  12. Tallguy88

    Tallguy88 Theology Category Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Supporter CF Ambassador

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    The Nazis had "socialist" in their name as a way of pandering to moderate socialists at a time when the Nazis needed support from other groups. Once in power, there wasn't anything socialist about the Nazis.
     
  13. eastcoast_bsc

    eastcoast_bsc Veteran

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    Well a cursory investigation on the internet will show that there is a division in historians as to whether Hitler and the Nazi party Socialist. There is a lot of evidence by people who know a lot about Socialism, that indeed they were.
     
  14. AvilaSurfer

    AvilaSurfer Active Member

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    And about Pope Francis and liberation theology?
     
  15. Yes there were. Nazi is an abbreviation for Nationalsozialismus, or National Socialism. It embraces the economics of socialism with the dedication to building socialism within one nation. The distinction is similar to the split between Joseph Stalin and Leon Trotsky, the latter who wanted to continue to dedicate all effort to exporting the revolution globally and the former who wanted to concentrate on pursuing socialism within the Russian and Slavic nations.

    The difference is not in that the Nazis were not socialists, but in that the Hitler's nation-state was pan-Germanic, whereas Stalin's nation-state was pan-Slavic. The National Socialists did not nationalize industries directly, but still controlled the means of production and distribution centrally, just as orthodox socialism commends.
     
  16. Sumwear

    Sumwear Newbie

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    I am a Socialist, and a very different kind of Socialist from your rich friend, Count Reventlow. . . . What you understand by Socialism is nothing more than Marxism.

    with certainty nazism wouldn't fall in the same end as say communism. but in the wide spectrum of socialism? the nazis gained power everywhere in the state. they dictated how society should live. they provided what society needed.
     
  17. MKJ

    MKJ Contributor

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    Statism and socialism are not the same.

    You can be a statist fascist (the Nazis) or communist (Stalin) or capitalist(Pinochet), Those people all believe in an strong authoritarian state to enforce the philosophy of the state.

    You can also have a anarchist fascist (most neonazis I think), socialist (Ghandi is in this direction, or many modern socialist nations), or capitalist (Ayn Rand). These people may belive in less authoritarian government, co-ops and similar collectives, or even be anarchists.
     
  18. eastcoast_bsc

    eastcoast_bsc Veteran

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    How old are you? The reason I ask, that there are what I call "Kiddie Socialist" Young in college not paying draconian taxes.

    I remember one of my young nephews, he was put to work by his father (my brother) for the summer. When he got his first check he was mystified as to where the money went. My brother had to explain all the various taxes to him. My nephew was Pee'd off that the government took so much of his money.

    Wake up call.
     
  19. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    I do understand that there is a difference between Statist and a Socialist

    I was pointing out attributes that National Socialism and Stalinist Socialism have in common, and both are Statist ideologies
    I am not saying that all Statists are Socialists, but it is one of the characteristics that both National Socialism and Stalinist Socialism share
     
  20. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    sorry I got this thread off topic by my comments about the Nazi party

    I think that your portrayal of Pope John Paul II as basing his views on Communism based on "emotional scarring" is way off base

    Pope John Paul II was a brilliant theologian and a Christ centered man
    His views on Communism were based on the teachings of the Catholic Church, deep scholarly study, life experience as to the fruits of Communism, and being guided by the Holy Spirit