Pope: denying Israel's right to exist is anti-Semitic

Rhamiel

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we are talking about the modern Nation-State of Israel
not Biblical Israel

Biblical Israel has Christ as King because Christ is of the line of David
it is made up of the Jews who are loyal to Him and the gentiles who have been grafted on

If you would view the modern Nation-State of Israel as being the same as Biblical Israel.... well that would mean the vast majority of the people their are traitors to their King

I do not think that way, because I understand the two are totally separate entities
 
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ebia

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Whenever Pope Francis says something that is inconsistent with the left's agenda the left simply ignores it.
You seem to be under the misapprehension that "the left" don't recognise Israels right to exist.
 
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ebia

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I get that impression because of how much Israel is hated by the left.
The human rights abuses of Israel ought to be hated by all.

I don't know anyone who doesn't want a peaceful solution for Israel and Palestine m
 
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LivingWordUnity

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The human rights abuses of Israel ought to be hated by all.

I don't know anyone who doesn't want a peaceful solution for Israel and Palestine m
The rhetoric of the left often goes well beyond simply hating whatever abuses they are accusing Israel of committing. I think it's very easy to cross the line from hating Israel to hating Jews, and I think that line often gets crossed since Israel is a nation primarily of Jews. Also, liberals largely ignore the abuses of all the other Middle East countries while focusing only on finding fault with Israel.
 
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Rhamiel

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well Liberals speak out against the strict Sharia law of Iran and Saudi Arabia
they do not focus a lot on it as much as they should
and a few of the Democrats who are in the pocket of Wall Street Bankers are now for dropping the sanctions on Iran
but this is a relatively recent problem and I do not think it is motivated by Liberal ideals but is rather motivated by several prominent Democrats wanting to make money off of Iran and then others going along with them out of Party loyalty

I think the problem is that many Conservatives ignore the abuses done by Israel
and the lie that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism

as I said on another thread of this topic
Americans believe that a government has the right to govern based on the consent of the governed
the people of Palestine do not give Israel their consent
 
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Fish and Bread

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I get that impression because of how much Israel is hated by the left.

At the risk of coming off like a cliche from a Carly Simon song, I feel as thought I should point out here that I am a liberal who doesn't hate Israel, and supports Israel's right to exist.

However, I do not feel Israel has the right to occupy territory for decades at a time without giving the people living there citizenship, voting rights, or respecting their basic human rights. Demolishing a house that is a home to a woman and a large number of children simply because of the crime's of the family's patriarch, for example, is not right (This has happened more than once). Lobbing missiles at UN designated refugee areas in schools is not right. Building out settlements in disputed territory with the implicit aim of turning Palestine areas into Jewish areas and ultimately committing cultural genocide against the Palestinian people is also not right (And, since we liberals are being accused in this thread of inconsistency on this issue, I will mention here that I also oppose China's policies of encouraging Han Chinese immigration to Tibet for similar reasons, though at least the Chinese grant Tibetans Chinese citizenship. I think you'll find that many liberals, though not all, of course, admire the Dali Lama and even favor either independence or increased autonomy for the Tibet region- I don't know what percentage of liberals feel that way, but the Free Tibet thing is primarily considered a liberal cause.). Taking out a country or region's only power plant is not right. Building a giant wall around what you claim is part of your own country as Israel has done with Gaza is not right, and is eerily reminiscent of the ghettos Germans put Jews in during the WW2 era (By the way, Pope Francis caused much consternation among his entourage by ordering them to stop at the wall on the way back from Bethlehem to Israel and praying for the wall to come down).

That I feel Israel has a right to exist and that I respect Judiasm as one of the world's great religions, as well as many individual Jews, does not mean I have to support the specific policies of the government of a specific country that is ruled by a specific party. I mean, does the fact the some disagree with President Obama's policies automatically mean they are racists and anti-American? Some may be, but of course not everyone who disagrees with him falls into those two categories. Similarly, people can disagree with Benajamin Netanyahu's policies without being anti-Semitic or anti-Israel. Some may be, but not everyone is.

As you are probably aware, Pope Francis has chosen to on most occasions cite Shimon Peres when discussing a leader of Israel in the context of working towards peace and very pointedly avoids mention Benjamin Netanyahu, giving the indication that he doesn't think Netanyahu is working towards peace. I agree with the Pope.

Also, liberals largely ignore the abuses of all the other Middle East countries while focusing only on finding fault with Israel.

We give Israel a ton of money in military and non-military aid, including equipment, and work in close coordination with their spy service. When they were killing people in Gaza on a mass scale last summer, the congress passed (with Democratic as well as Republican votes) and the President (a Democrat) signed an "emergency funding" bill for Israel's iron dome program (Though I personally would not have voted for or signed said bill). We most likely are the source of Israel's nuclear weapons as well, or at least allowed them to get them without doing the normal things we'd do to block other countries in the region from achieving those capabilities. If we are going to back Israel to the hilt, then they need to be held to a higher standard than just being another middle eastern country where human rights are not respected and people die for no good reason. Somehow calls to just cease funding Israel's military and collaborating with their foreign intelligence service are met with cries of "Antisemitism!" instead of a simple acknowledgement that falling back into a neutral posture would be just that- neutrality. Right now we're taking sides, and I think the current Israeli government has lost the moral high ground to the point where it's time to, not take the other side, but simply say we are on the side of peace and human rights, and neither side of that conflict is working hard enough to achieve those things.

If Israel elected a Prime Minister like Rabin or Peres again, people who genuinely sought peace and were working towards a two state solution, I would feel differently. However, a radical right wing Jew opposed to peace shot Rabin and killed him. Not a Muslim, a Jew who wanted perpetual war against the Muslims (and the Arab Christians in the occupied territories as well).
 
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Rhamiel

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also I am tired of this "well we will recognize Palestine as a state once they learn to behave themselves"

I mean, at the time of the founding of America
Women could not vote
African-Americans could not vote, in fact many were held in the bonds of chattel-slavery
even poor white men could not vote, you had to own a certain amount of property to vote
oh and we were genocidal towards Native Americans

but despite all these problems
we held the belief that we had the right to self determination

how can you not say that Palestine, as crazy and poor and violent as it is, does not have the same right?

Israel is THE strongest military in the Middle East, they could win a war against any Arab country
and that would be without our help, the USA would support Israel in a real war

they have the Iron Dome system
they have a freaking NUKE!
they would not be threatened by a Free Palestine
that would be like the USA saying that they feel Iceland is a significant threat
 
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Armoured

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Fish & Bread makes many very good points

I am really tired that any criticism of the war crimes and human rights violations done by Israel is met with cries of "anti-Semitism"
But it's such an easy way to short circuit any criticism! Note: I just noticed that some of the people who instantly play the anti-semitism card when Israel is criticised, are the same people who accuse others of playing the race card over many issues in the US.

Curious, no?
 
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Rhamiel

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But it's such an easy way to short circuit any criticism! Note: I just noticed that some of the people who instantly play the anti-semitism card when Israel is criticised, are the same people who accuse others of playing the race card over many issues in the US.

Curious, no?

both the "race card" and the "anti-Semitism card" have been used to try and close debates
 
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LivingWordUnity

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well Liberals speak out against the strict Sharia law of Iran and Saudi Arabia
they do not focus a lot on it as much as they should
I've only seen a select few liberals criticize Islam, and when they do they catch a lot of fire from other liberals.
 
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Fish and Bread

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I've only seen a select few liberals criticize Islam, and when they do they catch a lot of fire from other liberals.

The equivalent to someone criticizing the Islamic religion would be someone criticizing the Jewish religion, not criticizing the policies of the current leadership of the state of Israel, or even direct criticism of the state of Israel. There are many Jewish people who are not Israeli citizens (Many are Americans, for instance), and there are many Israeli citizens who do not support the actions of their leadership and voted for opposition candidates in their recent election. Liberals are generally very accepting of the Jewish religion, and indeed traditionally the majority of American Jews have been Democrats. The only ethnically Jewish person running for President right now is Bernie Sanders (Though I do not think he is a practicing religious Jew), and he is running in the Democratic primary.

I do not equate the policies of the state of Israel with the Jewish religion as a whole, and I do not equate the policies of majority Muslim countries with Islam as a whole. Christians, Muslims, and Jews are all children of Abraham who worship the same God, as Vatican II teaches authoritatively in a Catholic context. All three religions can and have been used at various times and places to falsely justify violence and atrocities, but all three religions can and have during other times and in other places been forces for peace and positive change.
 
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Rhamiel

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I've only seen a select few liberals criticize Islam, and when they do they catch a lot of fire from other liberals.
true
many of them are stuck in a colonial mindset
where they blame all the problems in 3rd world countries on the "evil white colonialists" trade mark pending

they forget that many of these countries have been independent for well over 50 years, and at some point, they need to take responsibility for their own actions

but many of them do see the illiberal actions by Muslim countries as problematic

He that keeps Israle neather sumpers or sleeps

you mean the Iron Dome Program?
yeah, that never sleeps

or is that a Bible quote?
Biblical Israel is composed of people who are devoted to God,
Jesus is God, and His Church is Biblical Israel, we are a nation of priests 1 Peter 2:9
we are the loyal subjects of Christ the King, who is a King of the Line of David

I do not care if a modern nation-state wants to try and usurp a name that rightly belongs to the Christ's Church
so I normally do not bring this up, it seems petty to go "oh they are not real Israel"
like if some village in Mongolia called itself "New York City" the real New Yorkers would not really care
the Church is so much greater and grander then a petty nation-state, the Church is greater then all the nation-states combined
remember, for a good part of the Bible, Israel is not a Kingdom, it was a group of tribes, Israel is a people
and now Christ has allowed members of the gentile nations to be grafted onto that vine
 
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ebia

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I've only seen a select few liberals criticize Islam, and when they do they catch a lot of fire from other liberals.
Interesting that you accuse other people of pushing all of Israel's sins onto Jews as a religious group, but you then do exactly the same re other states and Muslims.

I'm highly critical of several islamic States and others - burma, Sri Lanka,...
I work with refugees and asylum seekers who have fled those regimes.

One simply doesn't find the unconditional support for islamic regimes that one sees from Israel. Nor can we very effectively pressure most of those countries, whereas the unconditional support Israel gets from the American right certainly de-facto supports their human rights attrocities.
 
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ebia

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Back to the topic, the reason liberals aren't getting upset or making a lot of noise about Francis saying Israel has a right to exist is because they agree with him.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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But it's such an easy way to short circuit any criticism! Note: I just noticed that some of the people who instantly play the anti-semitism card when Israel is criticised, are the same people who accuse others of playing the race card over many issues in the US.

Curious, no?
Apples and oranges. Israel is a Jewish nation. So it's impossible to separate the nation from the Jewish race. And when someone only criticizes Israel while ignoring the bad things that all the other countries in the Middle East do, when the daily rocket attacks and suicide 'martyr' missions done my Hamas are overlooked and only Israel's reaction to it is ever looked at, it looks anti-Semitic.
 
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