Poll question for those who converted after marriage

[gzt]

I have never heard of remarrying after converting. I have heard of crowning as a blessing by the Church for the marriage, but marrying after one is already married sounds off

well, yes, I agree, and apparently so do the OCA guidelines. But other places have other sensibilities. The service books I've seen don't give any clues what these anniversary celebrations involving crowns are that have popped up a couple times, and the people who have had them haven't indicated (nor do they necessarily know) that they are done only for people without an Orthodox wedding (ie converted before marriage) or whether they are generically done for any couple who requests it for an anniversary.

EDIT: for those who have had some sort of anniversary crowning, could you elaborate, and also indicate what jurisdiction? My hunch is that you are Antiochian?

 

[Shane R]

I was told by a ROCOR priest that this service would be necessary to validate my marriage, and that communion would be impossible until the crowning was completed. He was more uncomfortable with my wedding having been performed by a Lutheran than my chrismation having been performed by a Copt, though that was also a discussion point. Then he proceeded to suggest two or three churches that might be a better fit for us than his ROCOR parish, which I took as an unfriendly gesture.

 

[rusmeister]

Yes, I'm talking specifically about marrying you again after converting, not something that may involve crowns on an anniversary, but something understood explicitly as performing an Orthodox marriage for a couple that converted after being married and therefore did not have an Orthodox wedding before.

I don't think you're going to find valid canonical jurisdictions that treat people married outside the Church as unmarried - living in fornication. Our crowning in the heart of Russia was undoubtedly a blessing and perfecting, NOT a "marriage from scratch".

 

[rusmeister]

I was told by a ROCOR priest that this service would be necessary to validate my marriage, and that communion would be impossible until the crowning was completed. He was more uncomfortable with my wedding having been performed by a Lutheran than my chrismation having been performed by a Copt, though that was also a discussion point. Then he proceeded to suggest two or three churches that might be a better fit for us than his ROCOR parish, which I took as an unfriendly gesture.

Wow. Sounds like.

"A better fit". Sounds like a seriously un-Orthodox idea.

 

[prodromos]

My wife had been raised nominal Orthodox, me Anglican. We were married in the Anglican Church then moved to Greece a week later. Initially we found an Evangelical church but after about a year my wife felt drawn back to the church of her baptism, found a spiritual father and started to take the Orthodox faith seriously. We had a crowning ceremony a little after that, and a couple more years later I was chrismated.
I remember telling my spiritual father about some of the strong opinions a few people had regarding chrismation as opposed to baptism and my concerns about whether I should get baptised. He responded that I had been married in the Orthodox Church, I had all of my children baptised in the Orthodox Church and I had been chrismated in the Orthodox Church. "You are Orthodox!", he said

 

[~Anastasia~]

I didn't answer the poll.

I've heard from folks in various places that seem to believe crowning after conversion is necessary to validate the marriage, but it does not at all seem to be the attitude of any clergy I know.

I have never even seen or read the ceremony. I'm aware it has more to do with having children and so on, and is geared for a young getting-married couple. It might seem very odd having the words said over the current marriage of an older couple.

However, I am very impressed with the Orthodox approach to marriage living for the sake of the other, and I find a lot of value in it. If there were a ceremony to emphasize that and commit in that manner, it seems like it could be very beneficial.

I have no statistical information to add to your poll at all, I'm sorry. But I'm interested in the question.

 

[Kristos]

My wife has been Orthodox since childhood, but we were married in the courthouse. After I converted the GOARCH priest said that we could have our marriage blessed if we wanted but that it wasn't necessary. I didn't inquire as to the details of the service and we never did it. Several years later, at an Antiochian parish, when I expressed an interest in ordination, the priest said that we should have our marriage "blessed", and we did. In this case, the "blessing" was essentially the entire crowning service but not the betrothal service. I did not ask about the particulars of the "legalism" involved and later was rejected for ordination anyway because of my past. I did, however, appreciate the service very much and was glad that we experienced it together.

 

[E.C.]

My stepmom was married to her first husband when they became Orthodox via the EOC people, so God only knows what those people decided to do for all the married couples in the community.


Now my dad and stepmom, both Orthodox by this point, got married in the courthouse and later had a church wedding with the crowns. I think that the priest who did the wedding basically treated it as the second marriage for the both of them just to keep life easy. I wasn't there, but from what I heard it was basically the shortened version of the crowning.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I didn't answer the poll.

I've heard from folks in various places that seem to believe crowning after conversion is necessary to validate the marriage, but it does not at all seem to be the attitude of any clergy I know.

I have never even seen or read the ceremony. I'm aware it has more to do with having children and so on, and is geared for a young getting-married couple. It might seem very odd having the words said over the current marriage of an older couple.

However, I am very impressed with the Orthodox approach to marriage living for the sake of the other, and I find a lot of value in it. If there were a ceremony to emphasize that and commit in that manner, it seems like it could be very beneficial.

I have no statistical information to add to your poll at all, I'm sorry. But I'm interested in the question.

dunno if it is necessary (like how chrismation is necessary for reception of Trinitarian Christians kinda thing), because I know folks who have been married and have not had this done, and the Church still views them as married.

good point in the emphasis on living for the other, and that is one of the reasons the crowns are there

 

[~Anastasia~]

dunno if it is necessary (like how chrismation is necessary for reception of Trinitarian Christians kinda thing), because I know folks who have been married and have not had this done, and the Church still views them as married.

good point in the emphasis on living for the other, and that is one of the reasons the crowns are there

Maybe the answer lies in the idea of "sacrament"? The Orthodox Church views marriage as a sacrament, but few other marriages are performed as such? There was no concept of that when we were married.

Sacraments confer grace? So if I have those parts right (only an "if") ... then there could be a benefit? Although I don't know that the fact that there could be a benefit even justifies doing it?

I'm just not sure how the thinking on these things work. I can't see not accepting a couple as validly married when one or both of them comes to the Church, and they have been legally married for some time, living together as husband and wife, and so on. That seems kind of silly. I can understand it for ordination, or something along those lines, if needed. But just to consider them not fornicators, and any children as legitimate ... it seems it should be a given.

I wonder what the Orthodox Church would do coming into a society and converting people who have multiple spouses? Seems I remember my priest commenting on that. I think he said they didn't encourage anyone to be "put away" and yet they would not bless additional marriages for the already-married, so it sort of died out within a generation, but it was considered a cruelty to have suddenly divorced women with no husbands, through no fault of their own.

 

[buzuxi02]

The service for betrothal and crowning is available online. When reading through it, it becomes quite apparent that its usage is limited. The form of this service came to be at a time when the empire had been christianized for centuries. In a way its obselete for usage in the diaspora where interfaith mixing takes place and many are converts after marriage. It also is somewhat obselete because traditional morality has become scarce. The entire service presupposes a young couple whose virginity will come to an end as they will now form a new family unit.

In reality our modetn day concept of marriage is what is obselete.

 

[Kristos]

The service for betrothal and crowning is available online. When reading through it, it becomes quite apparent that its usage is limited. The form of this service came to be at a time when the empire had been christianized for centuries. In a way its obselete for usage in the diaspora where interfaith mixing takes place and many are converts after marriage. It also is somewhat obselete because traditional morality has become scarce. The entire service presupposes a young couple whose virginity will come to an end as they will now form a new family unit.

In reality our modetn day concept of marriage is what is obselete.

Sometimes I wonder if we don't romanticize the chastity of generations past...sure, they weren't as open about it, but the idea of a young man sowing his wild oats before marriage is nothing new...

 

[gracefullamb]

.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Maybe the answer lies in the idea of "sacrament"? The Orthodox Church views marriage as a sacrament, but few other marriages are performed as such? There was no concept of that when we were married.

yeah, something this personal would best be brought up to your priest.

Sacraments confer grace? So if I have those parts right (only an "if") ... then there could be a benefit? Although I don't know that the fact that there could be a benefit even justifies doing it?

yes, but it is not us who determine where there is no grace. we know the fullness is in the Orthodox Church, but that does not mean that He would not work outside His Body to your wedding, even if it were purely civil at the time or whatever.

I'm just not sure how the thinking on these things work. I can't see not accepting a couple as validly married when one or both of them comes to the Church, and they have been legally married for some time, living together as husband and wife, and so on. That seems kind of silly. I can understand it for ordination, or something along those lines, if needed. But just to consider them not fornicators, and any children as legitimate ... it seems it should be a given.

from what I gather, you are correct. hence folks are not remarried when they convert.

 

[Dorothea]

Are you talking about the crowning service in marriage sacrament? Hubby converted before we married because he wanted to all on his own. I never asked him to. He, Dad, and I all attended catechism class together. Hubby and Dad were baptized (Dad was baptized) and Chrismated at the same time. A couple of months later, hubs and I married with the stefano (crowns used in Greek Orthodox marriage ceremony).

 

[Dorothea]

Yes, I'm talking specifically about marrying you again after converting, not something that may involve crowns on an anniversary, but something understood explicitly as performing an Orthodox marriage for a couple that converted after being married and therefore did not have an Orthodox wedding before.

So, you're talking about both husband and wife? My husband was married years before and before he was Orthodox, but when we married, we were crowned. My sister married a non Orthodox 20+ years ago in a Baptist Church (he was Baptist), and when he converted, they had their marriage blessed in the Orthodox Church, but I don't think there was any crowning.

 

[~Anastasia~]

yeah, something this personal would best be brought up to your priest.



yes, but it is not us who determine where there is no grace. we know the fullness is in the Orthodox Church, but that does not mean that He would not work outside His Body to your wedding, even if it were purely civil at the time or whatever.



from what I gather, you are correct. hence folks are not remarried when they convert.

Thanks, Matt, I was just thinking out loud.

It was a highly Christian ceremony, and the priest would need to answer on those counts.

For my own self, the biggest advantage I would see is the possibility of my husband coming to value the Orthodox mindset regarding marriage.

But I certainly feel no "less married".

 

[buzuxi02]

Sometimes I wonder if we don't romanticize the chastity of generations past...sure, they weren't as open about it, but the idea of a young man sowing his wild oats before marriage is nothing new...

40-50% of childbirths today are to single mothers, when you look at the byzantine marriage contracts, it becomes apparent that most commoners married in what today is considered their teenage years. There was no 50% illegitimacy rate.

Most likely we just want to justify our behaviors when we justify pre marital conduct. . Any MiddleEastern Christian will tell you that what goes on in the christian West in terms of dating and relationships doesn't go on there.

Now aside from that tangent, my point is our marriage service never took into account the situation we face today. When we begin to uncover the nuances and meanings behind the various prayers in the service, its even more apparent that crowning a couple that has already had children and living together for years before their conversion is nonsensical. You have to delete and reinterpret alot in the text.

 

[gzt]

My wife had been raised nominal Orthodox, me Anglican. We were married in the Anglican Church then moved to Greece a week later. Initially we found an Evangelical church but after about a year my wife felt drawn back to the church of her baptism, found a spiritual father and started to take the Orthodox faith seriously. We had a crowning ceremony a little after that, and a couple more years later I was chrismated.
I remember telling my spiritual father about some of the strong opinions a few people had regarding chrismation as opposed to baptism and my concerns about whether I should get baptised. He responded that I had been married in the Orthodox Church, I had all of my children baptised in the Orthodox Church and I had been chrismated in the Orthodox Church. "You are Orthodox!", he said

This is a very different situation - she was Orthodox, and therefore would be required to marry "in the Church" before being in "good standing" in the Church.

 

[~Anastasia~]

40-50% of childbirths today are to single mothers, when you look at the byzantine marriage contracts, it becomes apparent that most commoners married in what today is considered their teenage years. There was no 50% illegitimacy rate.

Most likely we just want to justify our behaviors when we justify pre marital conduct. . Any MiddleEastern Christian will tell you that what goes on in the christian West in terms of dating and relationships doesn't go on there.

Now aside from that tangent, my point is our marriage service never took into account the situation we face today. When we begin to uncover the nuances and meanings behind the various prayers in the service, its even more apparent that crowning a couple that has already had children and living together for years before their conversion is nonsensical. You have to delete and reinterpret alot in the text.

I live in a small town, and they publish quarterly birth announcements. I happened to notice nearly all were to single parents, so I counted. There is less than a 10% rate of two parents being listed for children born here the last quarter. And while it doesn't report if those two parents are married to each other or not, not all of them have the same last name either.