Police Open Fire on Transgender YouTube Star

[PreachersWife2004]

Still not comparable to a video game.

You are missing the point of the analogy.

People look at these situations as though they are from a video game, asking "why didn't you shoot for the knee?" etc. This is NOT a video game, though. It is real life, and no, cops don't aim for knees, nor are they always able to save the life of someone who is suicidal.

I could've just as easily said "this is not Hollywood" and the analogy would be the same.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

And how is it that I think THIS person was mentally ill?

Not really sure, come to think of it. You just keep alluding to mental illness like it's a factor here.

 

[Glass*Soul]

Yes. Autism and the desire to be the opposite sex don't automatically equal mentally incompetent. This person sent texts out to friends stating what she was going to do. That takes some forethought, something not generally cognizant with someone who isn't mentally competent to make choices.

Someone being able to contact a friend does not rule out mental incompetency.

I'm not speaking as a professional but as someone who was contacted by a schizophrenic friend shortly before he was involuntarily committed. He had no problem phoning me and described his situation and some of his plans quite eloquently. Mind you, he thought he was Jesus and was literally starving himself to the point of having to pin his briefs around his waist to keep them from falling off. I also spoke to his mother who had been leaving his favorite foods all around the house like someone trying to feed a deer and who was quite terrified by the way he had snarled at her.

In hind site, I am deeply grateful that his parents were able to lure him to his psychiatrist's office where he was detained peaceably. Had he been cornered in less controlled circumstances, where a knife or blunt instrument might have been at hand, who knows what would have transpired between him and the police. If he had been hurt or killed by the police, I could hardly be convinced that his being able to call me and to communicate so clearly with me would have meant that he was competent enough to know how to protect his own life in a moment of confrontation.

On a personal note, I am autistic. It is very rare for me, thank goodness, but I do sometimes have meltdowns in which I self harm in ways almost identical to those in the video. I worry about some day having a confrontation with the police, not because I am a law-breaker, but because of an episode of that nature during which I might be pretty dis-associative. Mind you, I would be able, shortly before, to call a friend and say, "I feel like I'm about to lose it. Can you come get me?" At that point someone verbally (or worse physically) getting tough with me can really push me over the edge and once a meltdown is underway it can also prolong the episode.

Outside of these very rare meltdowns I am perfectly reasonable and competent.

I volunteer at my local hospital where I always make a point of greeting any police or sheriffs deputies who come in, in hopes that they will come to know me and be more apt to give me the benefit of any doubts, as I am terrified of finding myself in some situation in which authority figures escalate a situation to the point of my being seriously injured.

BTW, that video makes me cry; it's so bittersweet.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Someone being able to contact a friend does not rule out mental incompetency.

I'm not speaking as a professional but as someone who was contacted by a schizophrenic friend shortly before he was involuntarily committed. He had no problem phoning me and described his situation and some of his plans quite eloquently. Mind you, he thought he was Jesus and was literally starving himself to the point of having to pin his briefs around his waist to keep them from falling off. I also spoke to his mother who had been leaving his favorite foods all around the house like someone trying to feed a deer and who was quite terrified by the way he had snarled at her.

In hind site, I am deeply grateful that his parents were able to lure him to his psychiatrist's office where he was detained peaceably. Had he been cornered in less controlled circumstances, where a knife or blunt instrument might have been at hand, who knows what would have transpired between him and the police. If he had been hurt or killed by the police, I could hardly be convinced that his being able to call me and to communicate so clearly with me would have meant that he was competent enough to know how to protect his own life in a moment of confrontation.

On a personal note, I am autistic. It is very rare for me, thank goodness, but I do sometimes have meltdowns in which I self harm in ways almost identical to those in the video. I worry about some day having a confrontation with the police, not because I am a law-breaker, but because of an episode of that nature during which I might be pretty dis-associative. Mind you, I would be able, shortly before, to call a friend and say, "I feel like I'm about to lose it. Can you come get me?" At that point someone verbally (or worse physically) getting tough with me can really push me over the edge and once a meltdown is underway it can also prolong the episode.

Outside of these very rare meltdowns I am perfectly reasonable and competent.

I volunteer at my local hospital where I always make a point of greeting any police or sheriffs deputies who come in, in hopes that they will come to know me and be more apt to give me the benefit of any doubts, as I am terrified of finding myself in some situation in which authority figures escalate a situation to the point of my being seriously injured.

BTW, that video makes me cry; it's so bittersweet.

Hello, Glass! Good to see you 'round these parts.

You certainly have more insight into the mind of an autistic person than I do, being autistic yourself. We have several friends and family members who range on the spectrum. We are blessed that we have only lost one to suicide. There are plans in place for a few of the others if something goes wrong, while two are in homes.

I'm merely saying that I don't believe this person was mentally ill. I think this person wanted to commit suicide. I don't know if suicide-by-cop was his plan, but it worked out that way. While I do believe that the desire to commit suicide is usually a mis-fire in the brain, I don't think it automatically equates not being competent to make that choice. I don't think I'm doing a good job explaining that, though, to be honest.

I'm also trying to say that someone being autistic and transgender doesn't automatically mean they were mentally ill. I hope that comes through.

 

[Hank77]

Not really sure, come to think of it. You just keep alluding to mental illness like it's a factor here.

I have personal experience with an Asperger's person. Depending on where they fall in the spectrum low to high functioning they see things or understand things differently than others do. Because of that they do not always make rational choices. So they are not always competent to always make good choices. They are more likely to suffer from depression and suicide. They may have odd behaviors that cause others to avoid them and children will make fun of them sometimes. Some are accused of lying because they cannot hold eye contact when speaking to others.
So yes, this girl had Asperger's and it could have been a factor here. We just don't know.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I have personal experience with an Asperger's person. Depending on where they fall in the spectrum low to high functioning they see things or understand things differently than others do. Because of that they do not always make rational choices. So they are not always competent to always make good choices. They are more likely to suffer from depression and suicide. They may have odd behaviors that cause others to avoid them and children will make fun of them sometimes. Some are accused of lying because they cannot hold eye contact when speaking to others.
So yes, this girl had Asperger's and it could have been a factor here. We just don't know.

yes but it's not automatic that if someone's has aspergers that they're mentally incompetent.

 

[Butterfly99]

I definitely think him having Aspergers & self-harm tendencies was a huge factor. He had a lot of other serious mental health problems. If you look on his channel there's a video where he talks about the mental health problems he's been diagnosed with & how hard it had been getting proper treatment for them in Arizona. I'd post that video but he cusses a little in it in total frustration so I won't.

Him having texted friends in adv. doesn't mean he was in control of himself enough to be able to make any choices. A kid at my school is autistic & depressed has self-harming episodes. He basically like disengages from reality during them. He's also said he was going to kill himself literally dozens of times & then changed his mind. It's suicide ideation. He's not thinking thru things at all then. He's super smart, like off the charts smart, but when he's in this self harm thing he makes dumb decisions. That happened once at school & teachers helped him out. There's a room where he goes when he needs a quiet place.

 

[Glass*Soul]

Hello, Glass! Good to see you 'round these parts.

Thanks. Good to see you too.

You certainly have more insight into the mind of an autistic person than I do, being autistic yourself. We have several friends and family members who range on the spectrum. We are blessed that we have only lost one to suicide. There are plans in place for a few of the others if something goes wrong, while two are in homes.

I'm merely saying that I don't believe this person was mentally ill. I think this person wanted to commit suicide. I don't know if suicide-by-cop was his plan, but it worked out that way. While I do believe that the desire to commit suicide is usually a mis-fire in the brain, I don't think it automatically equates not being competent to make that choice. I don't think I'm doing a good job explaining that, though, to be honest.

I think I understand what you're saying. The interesting thing is that even someone who is normally competent can have moments of disassociation and/or decompensation and/or autistic meltdowns when they really are not thinking in rational terms. It can even be shocking to yourself that at times you can be found cracking yourself on the head with your own fists and fighting off anyone who tries to restrain you when your normal modus operandi is that of a reasonable, responsible, self-reliant citizen. I don't know if its even helpful to think of it in terms of mental illness vs not mental illness. Right here, right now, this technically non-mentally ill person can't reason, can't think straight and doesn't even have a good sense of self beyond pure overload, fear and anguish. And most people simply don't know what to do. A lot of people will react by getting tough because they think its the right thing to do. I've been drug, by a horrified loved one, out of a closet where I was trying to have a meltdown as quietly as I was able, and thrown across the room and into the wall with an injury to my shoulder. It devastated both of us. And police can get tough like no one else.

I think that's why that video is so touching and bittersweet. It's probably way easier to teach a good dog to be gentle, constant and unflappable than a human being.

Someone with a knife is even more complicated. It's gotta take lots of good police training. They have to be the ones who stay in control. And that may mean knowing how to be wisely non-aggressive, back off and give people room.

Maybe there need to be two types of police dogs: ones that attack and ones that dispense gentle concern. Not sure how that would work but it's an idea.

I'm also trying to say that someone being autistic and transgender doesn't automatically mean they were mentally ill. I hope that comes through.

Very true. It sounds like you are in a good position to know this for a fact.

 

[Glass*Soul]

I have personal experience with an Asperger's person. Depending on where they fall in the spectrum low to high functioning they see things or understand things differently than others do. Because of that they do not always make rational choices. So they are not always competent to always make good choices. They are more likely to suffer from depression and suicide. They may have odd behaviors that cause others to avoid them and children will make fun of them sometimes. Some are accused of lying because they cannot hold eye contact when speaking to others.
So yes, this girl had Asperger's and it could have been a factor here. We just don't know.

Another interesting point (maybe a little off topic) is that autistic people may be making decisions that would be counter-productive for an allistic person but make perfect sense for an autistic person. We can get a lot of flack for actually taking good care of ourselves if that care makes us look less "normal".

 

[Butterfly99]

It is sad someone died.

It is sad friends called the police instead of an ambulance.

It is sad that Arizona refused mental health treatment.

But I watched all five videos they posted to YouTube, this person had a whole lot more going on besides Asperger’s.

It's definitely extremely sad. I watched 1 of the other videos. There was a lot more going on. He talked about all the mental health problems he'd been diagnosed w & all the frustrations w getting proper care for it in AZ. Idk if he was trying to kill himself or hurt anybody or if he was having one of his self-harming episodes but not meaning to take it that far. Cause some ppl will say they're going to kill themselves but they aren't going to go w it. They're just in despair.

You said in the other thread you never had to shoot anybody when handcuffing hundreds of ppl & that's def. great. I think the police could have done something besides shoot him fatally.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

It's definitely extremely sad. I watched 1 of the other videos. There was a lot more going on. He talked about all the mental health problems he'd been diagnosed w & all the frustrations w getting proper care for it in AZ. Idk if he was trying to kill himself or hurt anybody or if he was having one of his self-harming episodes but not meaning to take it that far. Cause some ppl will say they're going to kill themselves but they aren't going to go w it. They're just in despair.

You said in the other thread you never had to shoot anybody when handcuffing hundreds of ppl & that's def. great. I think the police could have done something besides shoot him fatally.

I often wonder what is going through some police officers minds. There are steps to go through; you don’t always have to have to start out on “Deadly Force”.

 

[Butterfly99]

I often wonder what is going through some police officers minds. There are steps to go through; you don’t always have to have to start out on “Deadly Force”.

We talked about this in class this morning. Yeah, totally agreed w you on this.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I often wonder what is going through some police officers minds. There are steps to go through; you don’t always have to have to start out on “Deadly Force”.

Sometimes you don't have the luxury of each step when you feel your life is at risk, including cops. Sometimes they do. Until you're in a split-second decision situation like that, it's hard to guess what we would do.

Having lost a relative in a domestic incident to a knife, I can understand the "deadly force" mode.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Sometimes you don't have the luxury of each step when you feel your life is at risk, including cops. Sometimes they do. Until you're in a split-second decision situation like that, it's hard to guess what we would do.

Having lost a relative in a domestic incident to a knife, I can understand the "deadly force" mode.

That is very true, but not all instances where the police use deadly force are split second decisions. If a suspect is running away from me, my life is not in danger and I am not justified in shooting the suspect in the back.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

In 2003 I boarded a Haitian coastal sail vessel with 38 POB (people on board) near Grand Turk. As I was going between boats, one individual decided to stop me with a machete. I took a nasty cut across my knee and fell into the Haitian boat filled with filthy water. I did not want my team trying to shoot the guy with me mixed amongst them. I deployed my chemical irritant (pepper spray) and used my expandable baton to disarm the person. After that, another officer relieved me and continued the boarding. I was later flown off my ship due to the high prevalence of AIDS and HIV among Haitians and the water I fell in was worse than raw sewage. HEP A, HEP B, other anti-Viral meds, tons of antibiotics and everything turned out OK. In my situation, deadly force was authorized, but I did not want to be on the receiving end of a hail of bullets and have other innocent people hurt or killed because one young fool acted stupidly.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

That is very true, but not all instances where the police use deadly force are split second decisions. If a suspect is running away from me, my life is not in danger and I am not justified in shooting the suspect in the back.

I can agree with this also, to a point. Police aren't tasked with just protecting themselves. If a suspect is running away from them, and has proven himself dangerous (say, like, the san bernadino shooters) then I fully support them shooting those suspects just about anywhere on the body.

The question is how quickly one can assess the threat level to the public when a suspect runs. If he's armed, I say he's an immediate threat and should be taken down.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

In 2003 I boarded a Haitian coastal sail vessel with 38 POB (people on board) near Grand Turk. As I was going between boats, one individual decided to stop me with a machete. I took a nasty cut across my knee and fell into the Haitian boat filled with filthy water. I did not want my team trying to shoot the guy with me mixed amongst them. I deployed my chemical irritant (pepper spray) and used my expandable baton to disarm the person. After that, another officer relieved me and continued the boarding. I was later flown off my ship due to the high prevalence of AIDS and HIV among Haitians and the water I fell in was worse than raw sewage. HEP A, HEP B, other anti-Viral meds, tons of antibiotics and everything turned out OK. In my situation, deadly force was authorized, but I did not want to be on the receiving end of a hail of bullets and have other innocent people hurt or killed because one young fool acted stupidly.

This gives me the willies. Glad you came out of okay!!

 

[Aryeh Jay]

This gives me the willies. Glad you came out of okay!!

Thanks!! It gave me the willies too!!! For six years I lived in fear of developing HIV.

 

[Butterfly99]

That is very true, but not all instances where the police use deadly force are split second decisions. If a suspect is running away from me, my life is not in danger and I am not justified in shooting the suspect in the back.

My teacher is retired from the military & he said a lot of it has to do w instinct & training. He was trained to use non deadly force whenever possible so it was his instinct to use that to defuse. He was in super intense situations b4 with weapons drawn on him & still didn't use deadly force. He said that the ppl who are suicidal aren't usually in the right frame of mind & you have to use a lot of care to not startle them. The man this OP was about might have been confused & feeling threatened by the police suddenly being in his house. This man from our church pulled a knife on police & thank God they did not shoot him. He's schizophrenic. He's super sweet when he's taking his meds but he doesn't always take them. He attacked this older lady in his apartment building cause he thought she was possessed by a demon & he wanted to kill the demon. He had a knife on him. The police were able to subdue & arrest him.